Liverpool Lime Street Extra Services?

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xtradj

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everytime a new timetable comes out we seem to lose more and more services

recent years we have lost ::

Virgin Trains cross country to Reading
Virgin Trains to Poole/Bournemouth
ScotRail to Edinburgh
Arriva Trains Wales to Cardiff
Direct Services to Newcastle ( now just one leaving around 6.30am .. and even then, splits with half going on to newcastle, and half to scarborough )

and more recently later services by Central Trains to Norwich and Birmingham, now only go as far as Nottingham and Crewe respectively

First Transpennine Express last service to York was recently changed to only go as far as Leeds, but since July now goes to York again

Virgin Trains serve to Euston every hour until 18:15.. then one final service at 19:49.. when really i think they should add an extra train and run 18:15 19:15 and last at 20:15 at the very least


is there any reason why so many services are being stopped at Liverpool? and less trains?

the stations being developed ready for 2008, that could be why, never the less i expect to see more services soon

does anyone know of any future plans for extra services? i know there may be an extra service to Euston but thats it
 
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Table 52

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Sad fact is that in terms of position, Liverpool is a pain in the arse as you can't really run through trains.

However, my understanding is that Liverpool to London services will be made a lot faster (with fewer stops) once the trent valley works are completed.

In addition, there has recently been the addition of the silverlink/central trains to London, serving more stations (such as Tamworth) on that route.
 

xtradj

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yeh your right, i think we lost the edinburgh service because of connections from wigan north western... and lost the cardiff and virgin voyager services because of a connection at crewe

theres only the one silverlink service in the day, think it leaves at 10.19 instead of the central trains service to bham new street

personally i think its pointless really because it goes to euston, with a virgin service going to euston leaving 4 mins earlier.. so its only useful for people wanting to travel to the minor trent valley stations, which people may want too, but whos to say they will want too at 10.19am..

i can see the silverlink service being scrapped, as people can change at crewe or stafford for trent valley services if need be

if however silverlink offered a cheaper london service, it would be alot more popular i guess.. but with virgin value fares its hard to beat

again with liverpool, they no longer do direct services to newcastle, meaning changing at york

one thing id love to see.. and i expect alot of people may agree is a virgin voyager service liverpool - manchester - leeds - york - newcastle, instead a slower transpennine express service
 

Table 52

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The Trent Valley is poorly served though- There's a handful of trains per day going to London and while it's not intended for customers travelling right through Liverpool to London, the Silverlink train is useful for shorter journeys. I agree that it's insane that there's not a special fare though.

The Liverpool to Newcastle XC service won't happen. All XC trains travel via Birmingham and as such, you'd be going Birmingham-Crewe-Liverpool-Manchester-Newcastle. People won't use it asit'll be quicker to get a direct train via Leeds. The only market would be Liverpool passengers and on their own, it doesn't justify a service. And transpennine express aren't that slow. They do largely stick to just major stops and as such, it's not a bad service for going long distances.

However- Liverpool will be coming back to XC soon. The central trains split will see Birmingham-Liverpool and Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich become Virgin routes. But don't expect to see a Voyager overnight. It'll be the same stock central use to start with I imagine.
 

xtradj

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dont central want as many services then?

when do virgin take over these services? december 2006?

i read that virgin withdrew its XC Liverpool - Reading service because of the SRA, but the SRA is now extinct?

the Liverpool - Reading service was every 2 hours, and is replaced by a Central Trains 2 hourly service direct to Bham New Street running during the day and peak times, but stopping early evening which stops at less stations, than the every hour service direct to New Street which also runs during the day, peak times, and also later in the evening
 

Table 52

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Central are being split up sometime in the next few years. There'll be a thread about it somewhere so I won't go into detail here. In short it'll be split between Midland Mainline, Silverlink and Virgin, with all 3 being refranchised I think.

Although the SRA don't exist anymore, their decisions are binding and their duties have been passed to other bodies such as Network Rail and the ORR.
 

ChrisCooper

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Well, strictly it's being split between a new East Midlands franchise, that will incorperate the Midland Mainline franchise plus the current Central franchise east of Nottingham, and the Leicester to Nottingham slow trains, a West Midlands franchise, that will incorperate the franchise Silverlink County operates, plus Central's West Midlands services, with services as far east as Leicester and Nottingham. Cross Country is going to be altered, and will include Nottingham to Cardiff and Birmingham to Stansted Airport. Liverpool to Norwich is as yet unallocated, but is likely to go to East Midlands, but could also go to Cross Country, or Trans Pennine Express, or it could be split. The existing franchises (Central, MML, Virgin Cross Country and Silverlink) will all end at the same time as part of these changes, and will be re-franchised, so it's possibly they will get new operators, and they will very likely see name changes (other than Cross Country, which should stay the same, although possibly without the Virgin bit, but then Cross Country is very descriptive of the service, aswell as going back to BR days, so might be replaced by something more "sexy", modern and "exiting").
P.S, if it sounds like I'm repeating what Table 52 said above, I was correcting the impression that Central would be slit between existing franchises (MML, Virgin and Silverlink), when it's all going to be new franchises, and those ones will cease to exist aswell.
 

Table 52

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Thanks Chris, I had assumed Liverpool-Norwich would be XC but if they split it, that's another matter.

One other small note: Some of centrals services running via Birmingham Snow Hill/Moor Street may be transferred to Chiltern Railways, instead of a new operator.

By the way, for those who haven't seen my opinon on this elsewhere, I think it's not a good idea at all and will damage the current Midland Mainline.
 

Mintona

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ChrisCooper said:
Well, strictly it's being split between a new East Midlands franchise, that will incorperate the Midland Mainline franchise plus the current Central franchise east of Nottingham, and the Leicester to Nottingham slow trains, a West Midlands franchise, that will incorperate the franchise Silverlink County operates, plus Central's West Midlands services, with services as far east as Leicester and Nottingham. Cross Country is going to be altered, and will include Nottingham to Cardiff and Birmingham to Stansted Airport. Liverpool to Norwich is as yet unallocated, but is likely to go to East Midlands, but could also go to Cross Country, or Trans Pennine Express, or it could be split. The existing franchises (Central, MML, Virgin Cross Country and Silverlink) will all end at the same time as part of these changes, and will be re-franchised, so it's possibly they will get new operators, and they will very likely see name changes (other than Cross Country, which should stay the same, although possibly without the Virgin bit, but then Cross Country is very descriptive of the service, aswell as going back to BR days, so might be replaced by something more "sexy", modern and "exiting").
P.S, if it sounds like I'm repeating what Table 52 said above, I was correcting the impression that Central would be slit between existing franchises (MML, Virgin and Silverlink), when it's all going to be new franchises, and those ones will cease to exist aswell.

If First get any of them, this is pretty much First British Rail!
 

xtradj

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i did read somewhere that transpennine express were going to get the liverpool - norwich service

but no doubt transpennine will terminate at nottingham, and a nottingham to norwich service will be provided by another company instead im guessing which i dont like the idea off

midland mainline only have hsts and 221's dont they?

never the less i still think liverpool needs a later than 19:49 weekday service to euston, and a direct service north

the only north services are hourly trains to preston/blackpool north/wigan and the one a day service to barrow in furness at 15.57 which is useless really apart from the lancaster to the barrow coast which it serves at peak time
 

Table 52

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xtradj said:
midland mainline only have hsts and 221's dont they?

Almost, they have HSTs and 222s (Meridiens)

Central's stock will be distributed between the new franchises when they take over. That's what normally happens anyway.
 

andel

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Table 52 said:
Central's stock will be distributed between the new franchises when they take over. That's what normally happens anyway.

Which means that the better quality stock will go to a National Express sister company (MML/Silverlink getting 170's) - the tacky 156's/153's/150's will go to the Chiltern/Transpennine and the 158's will go to Virgin and First with the odd 170.
 

Max

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I believe Transpennine Express are actually in line for 170s in the new franchise.
 

Techniquest

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The ATW service was knocked off due to low usage of it I do believe. I must admit it was always a dream of mine to do the ATW service into Liverpool, if only for the different traction. Never got around to doing it in the end, it was impractical to do so. Would have been interesting to see the unit there might, especially as it used to go from Fishguard Harbour!

I remember seeing the display and hearing the announcement at Swansea, it was fascinating.

There was a service on another day (probably a Sunday) that also went there as a portion of the Manchester service, splitting at Crewe. Can't recall exactly, but I believe that portion on that day was a FNW-liveried 153...! This was noted at Hereford, can't recall when, was definately in 2004, some time before ATW left Liverpool.
 

Table 52

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andel said:
Which means that the better quality stock will go to a National Express sister company (MML/Silverlink getting 170's) - the tacky 156's/153's/150's will go to the Chiltern/Transpennine and the 158's will go to Virgin and First with the odd 170.

As much as I agree with cynicsm normally, in this case it's wrong. National Express owning Central doesn't come into it because (as stated above) Cross country, West Mids and East Mids will potentially have new owners as they will be refranchised. National Express mignt not own any of them!

I would guess the allocation of central's stock will be decided by Network Rail. And my guess is that they will keep the stock on the routes they currently run on. After all, the drivers are trained and the stock is cleared for the routes already that way.
 

Max

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AlexS said:
These are coming from South West Trains.

Yes I know about these but I also believe that if they get Nottingham-Liverpool services they will recieve some 170s from Central too.
 

xtradj

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WSXFan said:
The ATW service was knocked off due to low usage of it I do believe. I must admit it was always a dream of mine to do the ATW service into Liverpool, if only for the different traction. Never got around to doing it in the end, it was impractical to do so. Would have been interesting to see the unit there might, especially as it used to go from Fishguard Harbour!

I remember seeing the display and hearing the announcement at Swansea, it was fascinating.

There was a service on another day (probably a Sunday) that also went there as a portion of the Manchester service, splitting at Crewe. Can't recall exactly, but I believe that portion on that day was a FNW-liveried 153...! This was noted at Hereford, can't recall when, was definately in 2004, some time before ATW left Liverpool.

yeh there was only 1 service a day from liverpool, and it went direct to cardiff .. left at 9.17 or something like that.. was always a gingsters 158. not surprised of low usage.. 1 service a day is not worth while, and the time was to early for most people i guess

think your right, we did get a return from fighguard harbour
 

Techniquest

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I should know, it ran as the 0335 from Swansea to Liverpool Lime Street! Seen it plenty of times!

Wasn't ALWAYS a Ginsters unit! I do know a Ginsters one did it once as I filmed it arriving into Swansea on the service once, but I am positive it wasn't always one of those!
 

xtradj

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yeh that makes sense, if it leaves swansea at 3.35 it'll be ready to leave lime street again at 9.17

any idea why it left swansea so early? and why there was only one service a day?

again, the times i saw it, it was a ginsters unit, and i guess it would have been a different unit other days
 

Techniquest

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Why did it leave so early? I guess because it ran as the boat train off Fishguard for one thing. This service gets cut back all the time it seems. From Liverpool to Crewe, then to Cardiff, now it stops at Swansea. Not such a problem exactly, but it makes it impossible to get to Cardiff for the 0440 to Weymouth, which is dead useful for the rest of us to go to Weymouth for the ferry to the Channel Islands!
 

xtradj

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i think they should rid of holyhead to cardiff services.. and instead keep holyhead to crewe.. and instead of the 2 hourly holyhead to cardiff train.. have a 2 hourly liverpool - cardiff/swansea train, stopping at limited stops.. with a train from crewe - swansea every other hour stopping at all/most stops

this would reduce journey times to cardiff from the north considerably
 

Techniquest

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The days of express services on the Marches are gone. The towns served on the route, in particular Ludlow, Leominster, Hereford, Abergavenny, Cwmbran and Newport have grown in importance and passenger numbers, helped considerably by a decent timetable!

You won't see the back of the Holyhead to Cardiff services either, the Welsh Assembly likes them. Besides, they're bloody handy for travel to North Wales! If I'm going to Wrexham, I can simply jump on the Holyhead unit directly there, cutting out a lengthy wait at Shrewsbury. Chester, again a direct service, cutting out the change at Crewe and being able to set out a bit earlier, potentially saving an hour of travel time! In any case, the Marches line gets boring after a while, branching off at Shrewsbury onto the route to Chester via Wrexham makes a nice change onto a more scenic line! Indeed, going to Shotton to change there for The Borderlands Line or for the same line at Wrexham, you get a direct service, providing a nicer route to Liverpool via one change at Bidston! Even passengers from Cardiff going to Aberwys... can benefit, as it allows an earlier departure and better connections onto Mid Wales trains to either Aber or Pwllheli!

No, the Holyheads are far too useful for me and the majority of the norms!

ATW won't be allowed back to Liverpool I daresay, there just isn't the paths (probably) and isn't much point anymore, what with CT's hourly service from Birmingham to Liverpool now in the hands of the 350s and of course with VWC's hourly 390s.
 

Guinness

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Table 52 said:
However- Liverpool will be coming back to XC soon. The central trains split will see Birmingham-Liverpool and Liverpool-Nottingham-Norwich become Virgin routes. But don't expect to see a Voyager overnight. It'll be the same stock central use to start with I imagine.

It could be a Voyager seen as Virgin XC will be losing the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh route to Transpennie "Express" thus freeing up Voyagers. I don't think it's clear what the situation is at the moment as DfT haven't made up their minds. Besides I don't think Beardy will like Virgin been branded on Turbostars. ;)
 

Table 52

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Who's to say Beardie will still be running the show? It's being refranchised.

Although it'll cost a hell of a lot to remove the word 'virgin' from every last bit of the cross country network.
 

Nick W

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Table 52 said:
Who's to say Beardie will still be running the show? It's being refranchised.

Although it'll cost a hell of a lot to remove the word 'virgin' from every last bit of the cross country network.
Is it hard for a station to lose its virginity today?
 
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