Liverpool Northbound new services

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frodshamfella

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After chatting on here about the new Scottish services which is like to learn a bit more of , if it is 3 per day do they divide to serve Glasgow and Edinburgh or will it be 3 to each city ?
 
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Bletchleyite

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After chatting on here about the new Scottish services which is like to learn a bit more of , if it is 3 per day do they divide to serve Glasgow and Edinburgh or will it be 3 to each city ?

To each. Glasgow via the WCML, Edinburgh via the ECML. The latter won't be much use for Liverpool to Edinburgh, you'll be better off changing somewhere between Preston and Carlisle as preferred.
 

frodshamfella

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To each. Glasgow via the WCML, Edinburgh via the ECML. The latter won't be much use for Liverpool to Edinburgh, you'll be better off changing somewhere between Preston and Carlisle as preferred.

Ok I see...so 6 trains that's a big improvement all be it via a longer route via Newcastle, will it be much slower do you think ? It might be worth it with luggage not having bother of changing.
 

driver9000

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3 per day Liverpool to Glasgow via Carlisle. The current Liverpool to Newcastle services should be extended to Edinburgh at the current frequency. I don't think there is a plan to retain some terminating at Newcastle and the implied new service is all will go to Edinburgh. The new Edinburgh service isn't aimed at Liverpool passengers who will have a quicker journey changing at Preston, it's to provide connections to Scotland further east. You'll be looking at +4 hours journey time.
 

frodshamfella

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I'd think a fair whack slower, but yes some may still choose it for directness.
Ok thanks for the info. I would expect that there would be enough demand for a west coast route from Edinburgh to Liverpool too , hopefully might see this in the future .Glasgow Edinburgh and Liverpool are all immensely popular destinations to visit so it would I'm sure be popular.
I have experienced travelling back from Edinburgh on a Sunday afternoon and the trains are rammed.
 

Bletchleyite

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Ok thanks for the info. I would expect that there would be enough demand for a west coast route from Edinburgh to Liverpool too , hopefully might see this in the future .Glasgow Edinburgh and Liverpool are all immensely popular destinations to visit so it would I'm sure be popular.
I have experienced travelling back from Edinburgh on a Sunday afternoon and the trains are rammed.

I think I'd in the long term hope for an upgrade to hourly. What might be workable there would be to alternate from both directions using portion working, e.g. in odd hours it's Liverpool to Edinburgh and in even hours Manchester to Edinburgh, and vice versa for Glasgow, and run as a combined train between Preston and Carlisle so there are plenty of opportunities to swap units.
 

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The TPE track access application for the Liverpool-Glasgow 397s had a mixed pattern of some independent trains, and some combined with a Manchester service north of Preston.
Journey times were not spectacular, probably allowing for attach/divide at Preston.
I don't think ORR has approved anything specific yet.
 

driver9000

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The TPE track access application for the Liverpool-Glasgow 397s had a mixed pattern of some independent trains, and some combined with a Manchester service north of Preston.
Journey times were not spectacular, probably allowing for attach/divide at Preston.
I don't think ORR has approved anything specific yet.

TPE has said it won't be using portion working on the WCML under normal circumstances.
 

frodshamfella

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I think I'd in the long term hope for an upgrade to hourly. What might be workable there would be to alternate from both directions using portion working, e.g. in odd hours it's Liverpool to Edinburgh and in even hours Manchester to Edinburgh, and vice versa for Glasgow, and run as a combined train between Preston and Carlisle so there are plenty of opportunities to swap units.

Yes good suggestion.
 

Class83

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The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service is essentially pointless. From Leeds there are already Cross Country Services to Edinburgh, from Manchester there is already the Transpennine service. So Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers can either change at Wigan/Preston as they currently do, or stay on the same train but for significantly longer.

If they were to run both Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow on the WCML, it might be easier to 'flight' them together from Preston to Carstairs as they'd have similar stopping patterns, this would avoid the difficulties of coupling/decoupling. Though I doubt there is enough rolling stock to do this.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service is essentially pointless. From Leeds there are already Cross Country Services to Edinburgh, from Manchester there is already the Transpennine service. So Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers can either change at Wigan/Preston as they currently do, or stay on the same train but for significantly longer.

If they were to run both Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow on the WCML, it might be easier to 'flight' them together from Preston to Carstairs as they'd have similar stopping patterns, this would avoid the difficulties of coupling/decoupling. Though I doubt there is enough rolling stock to do this.

I would suggest that given XC's relatively short trains an additional service between Leeds and Edinburgh could be a good idea. It also provides a through service from Huddersfield, a town with a growing student population. The fact that a through service from Liverpool to Edinburgh will exist is just an operational convenience: it could just as easily start from Manchester Airport. Don't get too hung up about the start and finish points.
 

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Wouldn't be much help to those on intermediate stations over and east of the Pennines...
 

driver9000

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The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service is essentially pointless. From Leeds there are already Cross Country Services to Edinburgh, from Manchester there is already the Transpennine service. So Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers can either change at Wigan/Preston as they currently do, or stay on the same train but for significantly longer.

If they were to run both Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow on the WCML, it might be easier to 'flight' them together from Preston to Carstairs as they'd have similar stopping patterns, this would avoid the difficulties of coupling/decoupling. Though I doubt there is enough rolling stock to do this.

It's intended to improve connection for passengers from Morpeth and Alnmouth to both Edinburgh and Newcastle. People are looking at the two ends of the route and the big intermediate stations without considering the potential stopping pattern of these trains.
 

frodshamfella

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The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service is essentially pointless. From Leeds there are already Cross Country Services to Edinburgh, from Manchester there is already the Transpennine service. So Liverpool-Edinburgh passengers can either change at Wigan/Preston as they currently do, or stay on the same train but for significantly longer.

If they were to run both Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow on the WCML, it might be easier to 'flight' them together from Preston to Carstairs as they'd have similar stopping patterns, this would avoid the difficulties of coupling/decoupling. Though I doubt there is enough rolling stock to do this.

I think you will still have some passengers who will use the service from Liverpool as its direct, and with luggage as many will be, its just so much less hassle.
 

frodshamfella

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I would suggest that given XC's relatively short trains an additional service between Leeds and Edinburgh could be a good idea. It also provides a through service from Huddersfield, a town with a growing student population. The fact that a through service from Liverpool to Edinburgh will exist is just an operational convenience: it could just as easily start from Manchester Airport. Don't get too hung up about the start and finish points.

But do I understand this is an extended Liverpool to Newcastle service which will essentially just carry on to Edinburgh ? I don't think moving an established route from Liverpool to Manchester Airport would go down well, leave it as a city to city service.
 
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Clip

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But do I understand this is an extended Liverpool to Newcastle service which will essentially just carry on to Edinburgh ? I don't think moving an established route from Liverpool to Manchester Airport would go down well, leave as as a city to city service.

He wasnt suggesting they do just that it could start from anywhere and still go to Edinburgh
 

B&I

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But do I understand this is an extended Liverpool to Newcastle service which will essentially just carry on to Edinburgh ? I don't think moving an established route from Liverpool to Manchester Airport would go down well, leave as as a city to city service.


Not in the real world, but with some on this forum it would be cause for a 5 day street party
 

Senex

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The Liverpool-Newcastle-Edinburgh service is essentially pointless. From Leeds there are already Cross Country Services to Edinburgh, from Manchester there is already the Transpennine service.
Not pointless from the perspective of Leeds. It provides a second hourly inter-city service to Newcastle and Edinburgh, so that if it were possible to integrate timetables properly there could be a genuine half-hourly service with the XC trains.
 

cle

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It has to end somewhere, and with TPE, that means Liverpool or Manchester Airport... and hopefully soon Chester too (albeit Calder).

Not in the real world, but with some on this forum it would be cause for a 5 day street party

Come on now, we’re doing so well without this boring drum being banged. This is instigation/baiting.
 

greyman42

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If TPE offers some competitive fares on the ECML Edinburgh route, it could win some business.
 

B&I

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It has to end somewhere, and with TPE, that means Liverpool or Manchester Airport... and hopefully soon Chester too (albeit Calder).



Come on now, we’re doing so well without this boring drum being banged. This is instigation/baiting.


No, it's an accurate reflection of certain biases on this forum
 

frodshamfella

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He wasnt suggesting they do just that it could start from anywhere and still go to Edinburgh

Sorry I thought we were talking about northbound services from Liverpool which are at last going to get a bit of improvement. Let's not through Manchester Airport into the mix which won't add anything to the problem.
 

B&I

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Sorry I thought we were talking about northbound services from Liverpool which are at last going to get a bit of improvement. Let's not through Manchester Airport into the mix which won't add anything to the problem.


It is part of the context which has to be considered when we examine why most of the north of England has such poor public transport, as illustrated by the inevitable suggestions on here that every long distance service north of Wolverhampton should be diverted to it.

But returning to the specific topic:

The Edinburgh service seems pointless to me, except for Huddersfield dwellers with.a yen to visit Auld Reekie. Enhanced Cross-Country services would seem to me to do the same job better, but the government seems to have decided that Cross Country is to be a no-growth franchise. I sincerely hope that yhe Edinburgh extension will.not make Liverpool's TP.services even less reliable.

The Glasgow service is a different matter. From what I have observed of travel between the cities there will be a steady end-to-end market, and a decent amount of custom from the termini to the large towns at each end, if the trains run at sensible times and decent speeds. An alternative to Northern's painfully slow (even post-electrification) Liverpool-Preston service will be particularly welcome.
 
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Clip

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Sorry I thought we were talking about northbound services from Liverpool which are at last going to get a bit of improvement. Let's not through Manchester Airport into the mix which won't add anything to the problem.

You really need to grasp what was written and in the context it was written in - about why they are sending the Edinburgh trains up the ECML and really had nothing to do with Manchester but it was mentioned as an example.
 
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driver_m

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This Liverpool - Glasgow service. What are its planned intermediate stops? Particularly in Scotland. One of my mates lives in Motherwell and is regularly moaning about how hard it is to travel directly South from there, (another one lives near Lockerbie). Good be good opportunities for people around there for travel if they do stops there. .
 

frodshamfella

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It is part of the context which has to be considered when we examine why most of the north of England has such poor public transport, as illustrated by the inevitable suggestions on here that every long distance service north of Wolverhampton should be diverted to it.

But returning to the specific topic:

The Edinburgh service seems pointless to me, except for Huddersfield dwellers with.a yen to visit Auld Reekie. Enhanced Cross-Country services would seem to me to do the same job better, but the government seems to have decided that Cross Country is to be a no-growth franchise. I sincerely hope that yhe Edinburgh extension will.not make Liverpool's TP.services even less reliable.

The Glasgow service is a different matter. From what I have observed of travel between the cities there will be a steady end-to-end market, and a decent amount of custom from the termini to the large towns at each end, if the trains run at sensible times and decent speeds. An alternative to Northern's painfully slow (even post-electrification) Liverpool-Preston service will be particularly welcome.

Well let's hope the Glasgow service grows in frequency being the more direct route of the two new services.
 

frodshamfella

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This Liverpool - Glasgow service. What are its planned intermediate stops? Particularly in Scotland. One of my mates lives in Motherwell and is regularly moaning about how hard it is to travel directly South from there, (another one lives near Lockerbie). Good be good opportunities for people around there for travel if they do stops there. .

It would be a good opportunity the enhance these towns services too then.
 
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