Liverpool Northbound new services

[driver9000]

This Liverpool - Glasgow service. What are its planned intermediate stops? Particularly in Scotland. One of my mates lives in Motherwell and is regularly moaning about how hard it is to travel directly South from there, (another one lives near Lockerbie). Good be good opportunities for people around there for travel if they do stops there. .

As far as I know it will call at the standard stopping pattern which includes Motherwell and Lockerbie.

 

[cle]

No, it's an accurate reflection of certain biases on this forum

Perhaps, but still missing from this thread, until you brought it up. Deliberately divisive stuff. But I digress.

I think stopping patterns is really important here. Having four principle hourly services up this line, which I think it should evolve to, means much better opportunities both to cover local services and to speed others up. An additional hourly London-Lancs would really help make all Glasgow (TV) services non stop from London too.

 

[skifans]

Having a look at the minimum train service requirements when the franchise was issued in 2015 the specified minimum calls are Glasgow Centeral, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan NW, St Helens central. Although there is a note for St Helens central allowing alternative calls at St Helens Junction. If paths permit then TPE could choose to add in aditaddial calls though.

The sheet I'm referencing is in the Train Service Requirements zip at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement titled tpe-tsr-scheduled-4a-tsr3a....pdf if anyone wants more of a look.

 

[driver_m]

Perhaps, but still missing from this thread, until you brought it up. Deliberately divisive stuff. But I digress.

I think stopping patterns is really important here. Having four principle hourly services up this line, which I think it should evolve to, means much better opportunities both to cover local services and to speed others up. An additional hourly London-Lancs would really help make all Glasgow (TV) services non stop from London too.

Non stop to Preston or even there? You have to do a crew change at Preston at the mo. Fully agree though that an extra service to Lancashire is a must. Once or if GC start these extra Blackpool's or not, then maybe we should be looking at an East Lancs London service to get an additional market from Blackburn, Burnley etc as well as get the most out of the market out of South Lancs that is clearly there .

 

[geoffk]

After chatting on here about the new Scottish services which is like to learn a bit more of , if it is 3 per day do they divide to serve Glasgow and Edinburgh or will it be 3 to each city ?

Do we know if the new Liverpool - Glasgow trains will serve St. Helens Central (maybe pick up only northbound and set down only southbound)? Or perhaps they will go via Chat Moss and Golborne!

 

[cle]

Non stop to Preston or even there? You have to do a crew change at Preston at the mo. Fully agree though that an extra service to Lancashire is a must. Once or if GC start these extra Blackpool's or not, then maybe we should be looking at an East Lancs London service to get an additional market from Blackburn, Burnley etc as well as get the most out of the market out of South Lancs that is clearly there .

Yes sorry that was unclear, non-stop London to Preston. Warrington and Wigan picked up by a London-Lancs and their stops north by the other various services I mentioned (principal not principle!)

The OA Blackpool slots would seemingly have made the best solution. Hourly to Preston, alternating between Blackpool and Lancaster/other.

I’d say the London fast should only stop once between Preston and Carlisle too. Obvs the Blackpool hour (above) would be the Lancaster fast call etc

 

[swt_passenger]

Do we know if the new Liverpool - Glasgow trains will serve St. Helens Central (maybe pick up only northbound and set down only southbound)? Or perhaps they will go via Chat Moss and Golborne!

Post 32 just explained the calling pattern...

 

[geoffk]

Post 32 just explained the calling pattern...

Oh yes, sorry. TPE won't really want Liverpool - Wigan passengers though, just as Manchester - Bolton users won't be carried on the Manchester Airport - Scotland services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh yes, sorry. TPE won't really want Liverpool - Wigan passengers though, just as Manchester - Bolton users won't be carried on the Manchester Airport - Scotland services.

Yes, always an issue for this type of service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot easier to use Watford Jn style pick up (north)/set down (south) only for Wigan as it's likely the first stop from Liverpool.

 

[frodshamfella]

Do we know if the new Liverpool - Glasgow trains will serve St. Helens Central (maybe pick up only northbound and set down only southbound)? Or perhaps they will go via Chat Moss and Golborne!

I don't know I'm afraid but it would seem a reasonable place to call at. If Wigan has enough Scottish services , is it possible that it might be skipped in favour of St Helens ?

 

[swt_passenger]

A lot easier to use Watford Jn style pick up (north)/set down (south) only for Wigan as it's likely the first stop from Liverpool.

Not according to the TSR quoted in post 32 above...

 

[notlob.divad]

Having a look at the minimum train service requirements when the franchise was issued in 2015 the specified minimum calls are Glasgow Centeral, Carlisle, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan NW, St Helens central. Although there is a note for St Helens central allowing alternative calls at St Helens Junction. If paths permit then TPE could choose to add in aditaddial calls though.

The sheet I'm referencing is in the Train Service Requirements zip at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement titled tpe-tsr-scheduled-4a-tsr3a....pdf if anyone wants more of a look.

But it has since been said they want to use st helens central. And there was also a not saying that some stations could be dropped from Manchester services if they where to be taken up by the Liverpool one. I think Oxenholme, Penrith, and Motherwell

 

[Senex]

Yes sorry that was unclear, non-stop London to Preston. Warrington and Wigan picked up by a London-Lancs and their stops north by the other various services I mentioned (principal not principle!)

The OA Blackpool slots would seemingly have made the best solution. Hourly to Preston, alternating between Blackpool and Lancaster/other.

I’d say the London fast should only stop once between Preston and Carlisle too. Obvs the Blackpool hour (above) would be the Lancaster fast call etc

Why so concerned to accelerate the London trains? Don't Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool merit fast connections to Scotland too (and vice versa)?

 

[notlob.divad]

A lot easier to use Watford Jn style pick up (north)/set down (south) only for Wigan as it's likely the first stop from Liverpool.

But it won't be as a stop in St. Helens is mandated in the franchise requirements. I think they will be full service without pickup setdown restrictions. They are new services there to generate demand so why cut off some of that demand. Secondly with only 3 per day, chances are they won't be running in the peaks. Restrictions will only come in if they become exceptionally busy over the sections in question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not according to the TSR quoted in post 32 above...

Even if they call at St Helens Central, that could be u/s as well. The problem with the Manchester services is that you'd have trouble making Manchester Piccadilly pick up only (northbound) / set down only (southbound) - it would just be ignored.

 

[47271]

The Edinburgh service seems pointless to me, except for Huddersfield dwellers with.a yen to visit Auld Reekie. Enhanced Cross-Country services would seem to me to do the same job better, but the government seems to have decided that Cross Country is to be a no-growth franchise. I sincerely hope that yhe Edinburgh extension will.not make Liverpool's TP.services even less reliable.

My entirely personal view here. I go to Liverpool a lot with work, and equally Manchester. Given that I connect from further north in Scotland, and that's an easier and quicker task at Waverley than via Glasgow, so I'll almost certainly be using both routes. I avoid Cross Country like the plague for all the usual reasons so they aren't a viable option for me anyway.

I agree however that the exercise is pointless if the extended services cause a decline in reliability.

 

[driver_m]

Yes they're stopping at St Helens Central as normal services. Presumably TPE will get a cut of the Saveaway ticket pot. It was in the local rag some time ago when they first announced the TPE services stopping in St Helens via the Chat Moss.

 

[B&I]

Oh yes, sorry. TPE won't really want Liverpool - Wigan passengers though, just as Manchester - Bolton users won't be carried on the Manchester Airport - Scotland services.

Won't they ? I'd have thought they be turning away a lot of passengers if they did that. They seem to be happy enough to make additional calls at Lea Green and Newton-le-Willows on Liverpool-Newcastle services

 

[driver_m]

Oh yes, sorry. TPE won't really want Liverpool - Wigan passengers though, just as Manchester - Bolton users won't be carried on the Manchester Airport - Scotland services.

If they sell 'TPE only' tickets that means they keep 100% of revenue, then they certainly will. Incidentally, the local rag has a comment in it stating that TPE are supposedly switching back to St Helens Junction from December. Was it you @DJH1971 ?

 

[cle]

Why so concerned to accelerate the London trains? Don't Birmingham, Manchester, and Liverpool merit fast connections to Scotland too (and vice versa)?

It’s a much longer journey, a larger market and more competitive against the air traffic, so yes I’d say speeding it up would be desirable.

At no point did I say anywhere would get cuts. My idea was in the context of today’s three services, plus a London-Lancs and a Liverpool-Glasgow. Extra all around, but with some juggling. Take another peek son.

 

[route101]

But it won't be as a stop in St. Helens is mandated in the franchise requirements. I think they will be full service without pickup setdown restrictions. They are new services there to generate demand so why cut off some of that demand. Secondly with only 3 per day, chances are they won't be running in the peaks. Restrictions will only come in if they become exceptionally busy over the sections in question.

Probably will be a peak NB service to Glasgow like Manchester .

 

[BeHereNow]

The Nova 2s are just starting to arrive so this service should be starting soon

 

[skifans]

The Nova 2s are just starting to arrive so this service should be starting soon

I thought the December changes had been pushed back to May?

 

[The_Engineer]

The Nova 2s are just starting to arrive so this service should be starting soon

After commissioning, testing, mileage accumulation, driver & guard training...…. Even May 2019 sounds tight for total fleet introduction.

 

[driver9000]

The Nova 2s are just starting to arrive so this service should be starting soon

First one is expected next month.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Nova 2s are just starting to arrive so this service should be starting soon

Unlikely, the new trains will all be pushed on to the Manchester Scotland services first. To try and reduce overcrowding and free up the 185s from running under the wires. This along with the other new units will allow them to strengthen more of the actual trans-pennine services to 6 car 185s until a high enough amount of the new fleet had arrived for them to start going off-lease. Plus there is the 10 350s to leave at some point which have a future home.

I suspect the Liverpool Glasgow will only start when the entire Nova 2 fleet has arrived and is in passenger service. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you can catch a 350 from Liverpool to London before you can catch any thing direct from Liverpool to Glasgow.

 

[driver_m]

Are 350s even cleared via Chat Moss on the west side? LM/LNWR don't use it for diverts .

 

[route101]

As far as I know it will call at the standard stopping pattern which includes Motherwell and Lockerbie.

Most of the TPE now stop at Mothwerwell , connecting at Carlisle would be an attractive option

 

[frodshamfella]

I do find it amazing to promote a new service with question mark about equipment .