Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

[DanTrain]

Perhaps it could be only 6 car to Sheffield? A Cleethorpes-Manchester service could take the 3 cars back across the core in the opposite direction to avoid blocking a platform? It would also reduce the number of units required if Manchester-Cleethorpes was also only 6 car between Sheffield-Manchester.

That’s a lot of splitting and joining 185s at Sheffield...is there enough platform space for all of this?

 

[Class 170101]

Two 6 car 185 services between Sheffield and Manchester will be a decent consistent service with an increase in capacity. Assuming that happens of course. Also means they can be marketed together and also stops the situation of EMT running all the way out to Liverpool with the associated ECS moves.

Annoying again that yet another regional TOC is ending up with a much improved regional fleet, whereas Northern are lumbered with class 150s until the end of time.

But depending where the nearest train crew depot for TPE is you may find ECS moves operating to Nottingham in the morning and from Nottingham in the evening instead or the loss of some of the early and late trains in part or throughout.

 

[robbeech]

Interesting fares search for Norwich - Manchester Via Leeds or Doncaster : Anytime Single £99.90 and ........ err that's it !?! No other option shown.

The via London SOR is just a comical price.

 

[kevconnor]

That’s a lot of splitting and joining 185s at Sheffield...is there enough platform space for all of this?

The bay platforms at Sheffield wouldn't be long enough for a 6 car 185 and I don't think there would be capacity on the through platforms to stable a 185 for any real period of time.

 

[eastdyke]

Interesting fares search for Norwich - Manchester Via Leeds or Doncaster : Anytime Single £99.90 and ........ err that's it !?! No other option shown.

Depends what you look for and when.
eg:
Tues. 14th May
Either
Norwich-Liverpool direct d08.57 a14.32 advance single (all fares no discounts) £40
Or
Norwich-Peterborough d08.57 (same train as above) a10.26 adv. single £9.50
Peterborough-Leeds d10.51 a12.16 adv. single £10.50
Leeds-Liverpool d12.34 a14.02 adv. single £14.40
Total £34.40 = Saving £5.60 (and half an hour)

 

[irish_rail]

Splitting Norwich to Liverpool is idiotic, but this is the DFT we're talking about so I'm not surprised they do something that is worse for the passengers. No doubt there will be a sizeable wait for connecting passengers.

It probably looked good on paper to some person who never uses trains but ticked a few boxes for someone somewhere along the line because from everything I heard the consultation was heavily against this, but when did the DFT ever listen?

Idiotic really??? I think Liverpool should be more worried about it's lack of links to areas like the south and south west. Doubt many people are heading from Liverpool to Norwich and Ely etc . Where Liverpool would gain would be to get its xc trains back to places like Plymouth, Bristol , Cardiff and Southampton etc etc.
Hopefully this split will increase the reliability of the operation.

 

[eastdyke]

Hopefully this split will increase the reliability of the operation.

Exactly. As we move so slowly to that long talked about 'right time railway' more people will gain than lose.

 

[DanTrain]

But depending where the nearest train crew depot for TPE is you may find ECS moves operating to Nottingham in the morning and from Nottingham in the evening instead or the loss of some of the early and late trains in part or throughout.

Operating from Liverpool and Sheffield would be much more efficient than the current Liverpool - Notts ECS moves I’d have thought.

 

[ainsworth74]

But depending where the nearest train crew depot for TPE is you may find ECS moves operating to Nottingham in the morning and from Nottingham in the evening instead or the loss of some of the early and late trains in part or throughout.

I mean that's a hell of a lot shorter than the current ECS move to get the first unit and crew of the day from Nottingham to Liverpool! A cool 125 odd miles taking just shy of two and a half hours. Compared to more like 40 miles and three quarters of an hour for a Sheffield - Nottingham ECS...

 

[tommy2215]

Hopefully this split will increase the reliability of the operation.

If you live on the route west of Nottingham it certainly won't increase the reliability. The Dore bottleneck still exists, as does the even worse one through Deansgate, and delays on this route come almost exclusively from those two bottlenecks.

 

[Glenn1969]

The split makes complete sense if it improves punctuality and reliability for both halves. I would also hope morning and evening services would improve on the Liverpool to Nottingham section with the change of operator

 

[mmh]

Depends what you look for and when.
eg:
Tues. 14th May
Either
Norwich-Liverpool direct d08.57 a14.32 advance single (all fares no discounts) £40
Or
Norwich-Peterborough d08.57 (same train as above) a10.26 adv. single £9.50
Peterborough-Leeds d10.51 a12.16 adv. single £10.50
Leeds-Liverpool d12.34 a14.02 adv. single £14.40
Total £34.40 = Saving £5.60 (and half an hour)

The average person just wants a train to where they're going, with as few changes as possible and for a reasonable price.

They neither know nor care about buying multiple tickets. For the sake of saving a fiver who's really going to go through the palaver? The saving will disappear when they buy a coffee to kill time at Peterborough!

 

[DanTrain]

The average person just wants a train to where they're going, with as few changes as possible and for a reasonable price.

They neither know nor care about buying multiple tickets. For the sake of saving a fiver who's really going to go through the palaver? The saving will disappear when they buy a coffee to kill time at Peterborough!

Isn’t that what train splitter websites do...in which case many people will buy multiple tickets to save often quite a lot.

 

[_toommm_]

TPE does make sense in terms of staffing and long distance connections - the last service from Sheffield to Norwich is a comedic 19:37. With TPE having crew permanently based in Sheffield, it allows for later connections to Nottingham, which in turn allows EMT Nottingham crews to run later Norwich services as they will start and end there. IIRC TPE used to run via Warrington too so there won't be too much in the way of new track to learn either.

Yes it means potentially long (in terms of distance and time) connections at Nottingham, but it falls into both franchises much better now.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting fares search for Norwich - Manchester Via Leeds or Doncaster : Anytime Single £99.90 and ........ err that's it !?! No other option shown.

LNER Advances are certainly available from Cambridge/Ely/Peterborough via Leeds to Manchester. Usually the cheapest route.

 

[gingerheid]

As with ECML to Glasgow they talk about this in terms of adding a change.

However the problem starts if you're adding a second or third change...

 

[Ianno87]

As with ECML to Glasgow they talk about this in terms of adding a change.

However the problem starts if you're adding a second or third change...

Nowhere will, by necessity, require from than one change where a direct service exists today - there will always be the option of changing only at Nottingham. Two changes just gives an alternative route - as today.

 

[DanTrain]

Nowhere will, by necessity, require from than one change where a direct service exists today - there will always be the option of changing only at Nottingham. Two changes just gives an alternative route - as today.

This is true, but two changes suddenly becomes significantly faster, and so in the eyes of the passenger, 0 changes has become 2.

 

[Kieran1990]

TPE does make sense in terms of staffing and long distance connections - the last service from Sheffield to Norwich is a comedic 19:37. With TPE having crew permanently based in Sheffield, it allows for later connections to Nottingham, which in turn allows EMT Nottingham crews to run later Norwich services as they will start and end there. IIRC TPE used to run via Warrington too so there won't be too much in the way of new track to learn either.

Yes it means potentially long (in terms of distance and time) connections at Nottingham, but it falls into both franchises much better now.

TPE still sign via Warrington for diversion purposes. Think there might be one a day via Warrington from Liverpool.

 

[mmh]

Isn’t that what train splitter websites do...in which case many people will buy multiple tickets to save often quite a lot.

You need to know those websites exist, then you need to spend time working out what it all means and whether the all the warnings are scary or not.

Then, in this example, you need to decide if the fiver saving is worth changing twice, at stations you probably don't know, against just getting on a train and getting off at your destination.

And that's for people who have never read a horror story on this forum about advance split tickets being argued about in case of disruption.

I use a couple of the websites reasonably often, and I understand all of this, but in this case the direct journey would be far preferable to me.

Split ticketing is of minimal relevance unless you're an enthusiast / trainspotter. Being able to buy multiple tickets via other routes is no justification for removing a direct route.

 

[mmh]

Edit: deleted multiple post

 

[eastdyke]

This is true, but two changes suddenly becomes significantly faster, and so in the eyes of the passenger, 0 changes has become 2.

Two changes are often faster already. In my example above by 30minutes. And that is despite 15 minutes at Peterborough and 20 minutes at Leeds.
It may be that the Nottingham split connections will only have a small gap. North/west bound the dwell there is currently around 12 minutes for most services rather less the other way.

 

[gingerheid]

Nowhere will, by necessity, require from than one change where a direct service exists today - there will always be the option of changing only at Nottingham. Two changes just gives an alternative route - as today.

But that's exactly the point, there will already be people on that train that already have a change

 

[Tomnick]

I mean that's a hell of a lot shorter than the current ECS move to get the first unit and crew of the day from Nottingham to Liverpool! A cool 125 odd miles taking just shy of two and a half hours. Compared to more like 40 miles and three quarters of an hour for a Sheffield - Nottingham ECS...

That ECS move is, along with a corresponding move back from Manchester in the evening, the only booked work over three diversionary routes though, none of which can easily be served by passenger services without missing important stations. The cost of releasing traincrew for route refreshing might not outweigh the saving, but it’d certainly put a big dent in it?

TPE does make sense in terms of staffing and long distance connections - the last service from Sheffield to Norwich is a comedic 19:37. With TPE having crew permanently based in Sheffield, it allows for later connections to Nottingham, which in turn allows EMT Nottingham crews to run later Norwich services as they will start and end there. IIRC TPE used to run via Warrington too so there won't be too much in the way of new track to learn either.

Yes it means potentially long (in terms of distance and time) connections at Nottingham, but it falls into both franchises much better now.

I’m a bit puzzled. The last trains to Norwich are worked by Norwich crews using units that stable there overnight. This decision won’t make much/any difference to the ability to provide later services onwards from Nottingham.

The last train from Sheffield to Nottingham currently isn’t long before midnight, as you’d expect with units and crews based at the latter. If anything, that’s the one that’ll suffer. The benefit might be felt in the opposite direction instead, with a later service than the current last one to Manchester.

 

[ainsworth74]

That ECS move is, along with a corresponding move back from Manchester in the evening, the only booked work over three diversionary routes though, none of which can easily be served by passenger services without missing important stations. The cost of releasing traincrew for route refreshing might not outweigh the saving, but it’d certainly put a big dent in it?

Are those routes on TPE's route card (as one of the contenders if not the front runner to take over)?

 

[Tomnick]

Are those routes on TPE's route card (as one of the contenders if not the front runner to take over)?

At least some TPE crews must sign via Romiley (they have a pair of overnight services booked that way by the looks of it), and I think they retain knowledge over the CLC (but have no booked work). They won’t know Dore Curve, but that’s hardly demanding.

I really just wanted to make the point that the existing ECS workings aren’t a complete waste, and that there’ll presumably be at least one or two empty workings (or very marginal passenger services) from Sheffield in the future - a couple of those each each and you’re not much better off!

 

[Chester1]

I am not too sure if TPE get it that they will use 185s. That would require the DfT making a decision and TPE doing a deal with Eversholt before Irish Rail does. They have already put out a tender and seem keen on 185s. IR want to a lease until 2027 and TPE cannot sign up past 2025. Depending on the cost of re-gauging Eversholt might just do a deal with IR while the DfT and TPE mess about.

I guess it depends on costs of new units too. If Hitachi have not won the East Midlands bi mode tender then then they will be desperate for work for Newton Aycliffe. In that situation leasing and maintaining 1 x 802 might be appealing compared to 2 x 185s and internally cascading units would make sense.

If there are sufficient paths I would like to see it rerouted via Chat Moss to cut the Liverpool to Sheffield journey time by about 15 minutes. Northern could run an alternative express service on the CLC to Oxford Road and then extend it to Sheffield once the Hope Valley upgrade is done.

 

[Qwerty133]

At least some TPE crews must sign via Romiley (they have a pair of overnight services booked that way by the looks of it), and I think they retain knowledge over the CLC (but have no booked work). They won’t know Dore Curve, but that’s hardly demanding.

I really just wanted to make the point that the existing ECS workings aren’t a complete waste, and that there’ll presumably be at least one or two empty workings (or very marginal passenger services) from Sheffield in the future - a couple of those each each and you’re not much better off!

I wouldn't presume that there would be any ECS workings in future. Presumably the middle of the night Sheffield- Manchester Airport services can be used to move units between Sheffield and Manchester if that is needed, and it wouldn't surprise me to see one of those services being extended to Nottingham in order to form the first northbound of the morning.

 

[eastdyke]

The average person just wants a train to where they're going, with as few changes as possible and for a reasonable price.

They neither know nor care about buying multiple tickets. For the sake of saving a fiver who's really going to go through the palaver? The saving will disappear when they buy a coffee to kill time at Peterborough!

My point is that the problem is not with the trains, it is with the ticketing and the public interface.
I think East Anglia - Manchester is only routed either via London or via Sheffield
And that is patently a disgrace.

[FWIW for Norwich-Newark I can ONLY buy a single/return anytime or off-peak. National Rail Enquiries tells me the first journey to Norwich off-peak would depart at 10.55, arriving 13.13.
I can buy advances for the journeys by splitting at Peterborough and travel much earlier and for much less or I can buy advances for Norwich-Doncaster which uses the same trains/routes. But of course I 'can't' do that.]

 

[DanTrain]

You need to know those websites exist, then you need to spend time working out what it all means and whether the all the warnings are scary or not.

Then, in this example, you need to decide if the fiver saving is worth changing twice, at stations you probably don't know, against just getting on a train and getting off at your destination.

And that's for people who have never read a horror story on this forum about advance split tickets being argued about in case of disruption.

I use a couple of the websites reasonably often, and I understand all of this, but in this case the direct journey would be far preferable to me.

Split ticketing is of minimal relevance unless you're an enthusiast / trainspotter. Being able to buy multiple tickets via other routes is no justification for removing a direct route.

That's not entirely true, I know plenty of 'non-enthusiasts' who use split ticketing because it can save 10s or 100s of pounds. These websites don't serve 'enthusiasts', they serve the general public. Equally I do agree that a lot of people will just look at NRE and pick their itinery, whatever that may be!