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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

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The only surprise in that article is the date, 2021. TPE have been ready to go for quite some time and would have preferred a 2020 date I'm sure. Northern as the other option have shown no obvious interest whatsoever.

Page 9 of the May 2019 'Modern Railways' also suggests December 2021, this date being taken from the ITT
 
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Killingworth

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Page 9 of the May 2019 'Modern Railways' also suggests December 2021, this date being taken from the ITT

In theory the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme could be complete by December 2021 but the necessary preparation work and possession arrangements mean work won't start in earnest before 2021 with an earliest ready to use for regular services date of December 2022, maybe May 2023! The original intention was to change the Liverpool-Nottingham in conjunction with a new fast service when that was operational. The ITT was issued when December 2021 was still a realistic completion date. It's still an open question until the DfT makes a decision.

As that HVCIS completion date gets nearer we should start seeing speculation about the 3rd fast train, possibly more of a semi-fast to be operated by Northern. Although fast is a bit of an exaggeration on the Hope Valley line.
 

317 forever

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Splitting the service was completely the wrong decision but not surprising. The change at Nottingham could involve some very long walks especially if the lifts are needed for example if the train from Norwich arrives on 1c passenger will have to walk to the length of the platform and if the Liverpool is departing from platform 4 as an example then you have to walk the full length of the platform.

AS for who operates the Liverpool section I think it is going to Northern no evidence but will see a downgrading of the service as no trolley hope I am wrong and it is TPE.

Would it not be possible to divert the Liverpool and Norwich services to enable cross-platform interchange at Nottingham in most cases between both services?
 

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Latest on HVCIS is that it has been agreed to go out to contractors and by October their quotations will be submitted to the DfT to confirm the business case still stacks up. Assuming it does funds are available within CP6 so contracts can be agreed. Heavy ground work is usually not started until the spring until the autumn to avoid cold and wet weather. Possession arrangements will probably include an Easter line blockade and other weekends and evenings. At present it seems more likely that the start will be in 2021 rather than 2020, but a lot of parties are urging the earlier date. Whatever, it's looking more likely that a ready to use date will not be before late 2022 - and with slippage 2023.

Will that be taken as the trigger date for the split of this service? That seemed to be the plan at the time of the ITT but does it need to be delayed that long? Will it be remapped to TPE (or Northern) sooner than that? Once more 185s become available a decision may be made.
 
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Would it not be possible to divert the Liverpool and Norwich services to enable cross-platform interchange at Nottingham in most cases between both services?

I think that would be difficult.

However, if passengers are travelling to/from Chesterfield/Sheffield, and might be better to change at Derby; currently, there are three trains each hour each way between Derby and Chesterfield and four to/from Sheffield, and Derby is a much more friendly station at which to change trains than Nottingham. Train stop boards are located so that trains generally stop with their centre points more or less in line with the station's central footbridge, and therefore the potentially very long walks involved when changing at Nottingham and requiring the use of lifts are avoided.
 

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There is a need for a few IC-style direct through trains from East Anglia to Sheffield and NW England (e.g. 3/day morning/midday/evening), even if the main service is split at Nottingham. The relative lack of through services when I travelled from Manchester in the mid 1970s with luggage made this trip quite difficult; there was just the North Country Continental (to Harwich PQ) and a summer-dated Saturdays only service to Yarmouth (Vauxhall). Travelling via London was significantly more expensive and the thought of lugging luggage across London put me off this route. Changing at Sheffield and Lincoln, or alternatively at Nuneaton, was simpler.

Closure of the Spalding-March line has restricted potential routes, but a direct service could be run from Manchester via Sheffield and the Erewash valley line and then the Syston north curve. Running this way would not overlap with the services via Nottingham and would provide additional new journey opportunities.
 

43074

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There is a need for a few IC-style direct through trains from East Anglia to Sheffield and NW England (e.g. 3/day morning/midday/evening), even if the main service is split at Nottingham.

Really? In my experience the majority of people who use the service from Norwich use the service to connect with ECML services at Peterborough, for Manchester/Liverpool and the rest of the North West it's quicker to go via London, and even journeys such as Sheffield to Peterborough are faster via Doncaster. If there was the demand as you suggest more people would be travelling across Nottingham on the current service, but DfT and others have clearly come to the conclusion that a minority will be affected by it being split. At risk of sounding like @tbtc in this case a token 3 trains per day merely absorbs slots in the timetable that would probably be better used by an additional hourly service between Sheffield and Manchester, for instance.
 

Killingworth

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Really? In my experience the majority of people who use the service from Norwich use the service to connect with ECML services at Peterborough, for Manchester/Liverpool and the rest of the North West it's quicker to go via London, and even journeys such as Sheffield to Peterborough are faster via Doncaster. If there was the demand as you suggest more people would be travelling across Nottingham on the current service, but DfT and others have clearly come to the conclusion that a minority will be affected by it being split. At risk of sounding like @tbtc in this case a token 3 trains per day merely absorbs slots in the timetable that would probably be better used by an additional hourly service between Sheffield and Manchester, for instance.

I'd agree. I've taken the EMT direct from Dore to Norwich a couple of times. After reversal at Sheffield it is convenient not to have any hassle of changes. Not many stay aboard at Nottingham, but those who do may not be travelling far in either direction beyond there. There will be very few going anything like end to end. Last time I travelled there was a group from Manchester who seemed to be regulars heading for the Woodland Trust offices at Grantham.

However former work colleagues would always opt for a 3 train option via Doncaster and Peterborough (or Grantham) to catch the same EM train for Norwich but starting later. Others might try via London.
 
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I've used this service a few times each year since before privatisation, and by observation the DfT conclusion that there isn't a significant demand for this service to operate through Nottingham is correct; there have nearly always been some passengers who remain on the train, but never many. Moreover, when looking at unoccupied reserved seats, I can't ever remember seeing any marked for journeys between Manchester/Stockport and places east of Nottingham.

Pre-privatisation, BR used to close the Erewash Valley line for maintenance on summer Sundays, and between Chesterfield and Dore on winter Sundays (think that's the right way round!); Manchester - Norwich trains therefore passed through Derby on summer Sundays, and I joined them there on a number of occassions, and from memory there often seemed to be others who'd joined at Derby making the same cross-Nottingham transfer. In more recent times, I've also seen passengers making the Nottingham transfer at the same time as me, and therefore I'm not surprised that Abellio are proposing to extend the truncated Norwich - Liverpool service to Derby; there are insufficient to make the extension viable in its own right, but the provision of another service in the Derby - Nottingham corridor is to be welcomed (there are 'Red Arrow' express buses between the two cities every ten minutes and typically nine stopping ones each way every hour, so there must be a significant demand which - hopefully - rail can capitalise upon)
 

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Will the service extended to Derby be non-stop Nottingham to Derby or will it stop at some/all of the local stops?
 

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I've noticed several people are worrying about people now needing to use lifts or stairs to reach platforms for their onwards journeys. I'm not sure that this need be the case? The layout at Nottingham is very flexible in that you can arrive and depart in any direction from any of the platforms (well, apart from the bays! ;) ). Obviously some platforms make more sense than others for various moves but on the whole it's a very flexible layout.

Further, apart from platform seven, all the platforms are grouped on two islands. So the only thing that needs to happen is for the service from Liverpool to arrive and depart on the same island as the service to/from Norwich and Derby. Which shouldn't be difficult to achieve. Indeed I wonder if the most optimal might not be to use platform five (the west facing bay) for the service from Liverpool (assuming that it's long enough) and then have the Derby - Norwich service use platform four or five.
 

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Will the service extended to Derby be non-stop Nottingham to Derby or will it stop at some/all of the local stops?

Nothing that specific would be known yet. It's still two years away.

Well, the current standard paths both arrive and depart Nottingham at about xx35 in both directions to from Grantham. Changing the path is likely to have big implications, particularly through Grantham and Ely.

A clean non - stop path to Derby from Nottingham is 20 minutes. Add a 2-3 minute dwell time at Nottingham each way and you have a Derby turnround time of about 15 minutes or so - probably about right, adding more than one intermediate stop would start to become...brave!
 

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Well, the current standard paths both arrive and depart Nottingham at about xx35 in both directions to from Grantham. Changing the path is likely to have big implications, particularly through Grantham and Ely.

A clean non - stop path to Derby from Nottingham is 20 minutes. Add a 2-3 minute dwell time at Nottingham each way and you have a Derby turnround time of about 15 minutes or so - probably about right, adding more than one intermediate stop would start to become...brave!
The Norwich-bound service has a long wait at Grantham, which could probably be shortened as it's no longer coming all the way from Liverpool. This would allow a bit more flexibility in timings to Derby and back, and also avoid the common situation of the Norwich-bound train waiting outside Grantham for its counterpart in the opposite direction to clear platform 4.
 

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The Norwich-bound service has a long wait at Grantham, which could probably be shortened as it's no longer coming all the way from Liverpool. This would allow a bit more flexibility in timings to Derby and back, and also avoid the common situation of the Norwich-bound train waiting outside Grantham for its counterpart in the opposite direction to clear platform 4.

Surely it could just dwell at Nottingham for longer now if necessary to shorten the dwell at Grantham? I.e. if it could depart later, it would do.
 

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Surely it could just dwell at Nottingham for longer now if necessary to shorten the dwell at Grantham? I.e. if it could depart later, it would do.
I'm not sure why it does what it does - possibly the original idea was to allow the unit dropped off the Norwich departure at xx34 to attach to the Liverpool departure at xx47 (slight variations in different hours), but in fact it is timetabled to join the one an hour and a bit later. There may also be a view to get it to Grantham as soon as possible in case the ECML has gone up the spout. But if that happened then the Liverpool train would probably be late as well, and that gets priority for Platform 4 otherwise it would sit blocking the Down Main. It would also allow it to hit the ECML on time if delayed after Nottingham, but other than a few AHBs there isn't much that might cause a delay on that section.
 

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Something needs doing about this route, and soon. I was at Sheffield today and was surprised to see a Liverpool - Norwich appear as going into Platform 2C - the 2 carriage bay at the far southern end of the station, out in the open.

The announcer soon explained. It was delayed due to over crowding and was comprised of 2 coaches, see; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C60436/2019/05/06/advanced.

It certainly was over crowded and passengers spilled out, some trying to reposition themselves in the train to get more space. Not much chance as almost as many were waiting to get on as got off and the guard had difficulty getting the doors closed again thanks to all the luggage being carried.

Whoever takes over part or all of this route, be it sooner or later, needs to ensure they can provide a minimum of 4 carriages on all trains, all day, every day, and 6 at busy periods.

To add to today's amusement, immediately after warning of the platform change, over crowding, and being only 2 coaches, a further announcement came to tell passengers beyond Nottingham for Norwich to board the front two coaches because the train divides at Nottingham!
 

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py_megapixel

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Running through to Crewe would have been a very good idea.

No, it wouldn't. The problem with that is that there would be too little capacity between Stockport and Sheffield if it went down to 1tph. Current fast services between Stockport and Sheffield are often full and standing.
 

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Presumably if it transferred to Northern it would be branded as Northern Connect? And what rolling stock would be used? The possibilities I can mainly think of are redundant 185s transferred from TPE after the Novas are introduced, or maybe adding to the 195 order?
 

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The announcer soon explained. It was delayed due to over crowding and was comprised of 2 coaches, see; http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C60436/2019/05/06/advanced.

It certainly was over crowded and passengers spilled out, some trying to reposition themselves in the train to get more space. Not much chance as almost as many were waiting to get on as got off and the guard had difficulty getting the doors closed again thanks to all the luggage being carried.

Whoever takes over part or all of this route, be it sooner or later, needs to ensure they can provide a minimum of 4 carriages on all trains, all day, every day, and 6 at busy periods.

All the more reason, in my view, for it to transfer to TPE and to use otherwise redundant 185s. That means a minimum of three carriages (and a 185 can hoover up standees in much more comfort than a 158 can) and hopefully usually six carriages.
 

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DfT want it to offer both catering and first class. That would make 185s appropriate, but capacity is vital. A single 185 covers most TPE departures from Piccadilly to Sheffield at present but is totally inadequate too often. A double unit is generous at times so a 5 car unit might be a fair allocation - but only at present.

The current 2 x 158 EMT trains are my preference, as long as both units turn up. Without first class there's more standard seating and walk through allows easier spreading of the load. That's an issue for 2 x 185 formations.

Northern don't currently operate first class, so if they operated the service with 185s declassification would be needed.

In the short term regular users are in favour of more seats as much as anything. Seats that depart and arrive on time. Once that happens there'll be more demand. It's a route that offers substantial growth opportunities.
 

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Northern don't currently operate first class, so if they operated the service with 185s declassification would be needed.

Why? When Northern was operating 185s to Barrow and Windermere 1st was actual 1st, it wasn't declassified.

I do however think that in the interests of capacity it probably would make sense to convert 1st to Standard in these units.
 

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DfT want it to offer both catering and first class. That would make 185s appropriate, but capacity is vital. A single 185 covers most TPE departures from Piccadilly to Sheffield at present but is totally inadequate too often. A double unit is generous at times so a 5 car unit might be a fair allocation - but only at present.

Well of course that TPE departure between the Airport and Cleethorpes should also be a six carriage 185 in due course! So at the point at which you have twelve carriages of TPE (assuming one 6-car per hour Nottingham - Liverpool and one 6-car Airport - Cleethorpes) along with the hourly Northern all stops. Potentially more in the future depending on what happens with the Hope Valley scheme! This is a significant capacity uplift it has to be said and should surely cater for both current demand and future demand.
 

Bletchleyite

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Northern is still (until the end of next week) operating 185s from Manchester Airport to Barrow, but 1st is declassified.

Appears to indeed be the case now as the timetable/diagrams have changed ready for Class 158 operation. However, it was the case that these had First Class which was in use.
 

VT 390

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No, it wouldn't. The problem with that is that there would be too little capacity between Stockport and Sheffield if it went down to 1tph. Current fast services between Stockport and Sheffield are often full and standing.

But you could have a separate service operating from Liverpool or Manchester which runs on the current route as far as Nottingham with the Liverpool to Norwich via Crewe service operating the existing route east of Nottingham (Liverpool to Nottingham via Crewe could be an additional service), this would mean that longer distance links are maintained but there is no less capacity than today between Stockport and Sheffield.
 

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But you could have a separate service operating from Liverpool or Manchester which runs on the current route as far as Nottingham with the Liverpool to Norwich via Crewe service operating the existing route east of Nottingham (Liverpool to Nottingham via Crewe could be an additional service), this would mean that longer distance links are maintained but there is no less capacity than today between Stockport and Sheffield.
There has been talk of a Liverpool- Leicester service via Crewe/Derby.
 

VT 390

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There has been talk of a Liverpool- Leicester service via Crewe/Derby.

Would it be possible to have this service divide on route at somewhere like Derby and have one portion continue to Leicester and the other to Peterborough (avoiding Leicester)? This would allow most of the current through journeys to be maintained as well as giving a service north for Stamford, Oakham and Melton Mowbray.
 

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Would it be possible to have this service divide on route at somewhere like Derby and have one portion continue to Leicester and the other to Peterborough (avoiding Leicester)? This would allow most of the current through journeys to be maintained as well as giving a service north for Stamford, Oakham and Melton Mowbray.
Anything is possible but would 4-cars Liverpool-Derby be a bit of an overkill? Maybe a poor use of recourses considering how many passengers actually board at Lime Street & continue East of Nottingham.
 

Killingworth

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Anything is possible but would 4-cars Liverpool-Derby be a bit of an overkill? Maybe a poor use of recourses considering how many passengers actually board at Lime Street & continue East of Nottingham.

Probably less than 5 on 99% of trains! But all long distance services serve multiple overlapping journey possibilities.
 
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