Liverpool Overhead Railway tunnel collapse

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Shimbleshanks

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The BBC is reporting the collapse of a former railway tunnel in Toxteth, Liverpool.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-18971316

Toxteth train tunnel collapse investigated


An investigation is under way after a former train tunnel collapsed in Liverpool.
Emergency services were called to the site of the tunnel - built as part of the Liverpool Overhead Railway - in Park Road, Toxteth, at about 11:30 BST.
The section of tunnel which collapsed was being used by a garage built on the site of Dingle station.
It is not thought anyone was inside at the time and there are no reports of any injuries.
Police and Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service are at the scene and an investigation is being carried out.
The area was cordoned off and Park Road was closed at its junctions with Dingle Lane and Keddleston Street, but the area had reopened by 15:30 BST.
People living in four streets near the collapse were also advised to leave their homes, as the terraced houses were thought to have been built over the tunnel.
Residents of all but nine of the houses were later allowed to return.
Haven't had it confirmed, but it looks like the terminus of the Liverpool Overhead Railway which, paradoxically, ended in a tunnel at Dingle. Latterly the premises were in use as a car repair garage.
 
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table38

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Bit of an update today online and on BBC North West Today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19368403

 

jon0844

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Having driven around some parts of Liverpool, that could just be a normal back (or front) garden - albeit without the tunnel roof!!

(I joke because the press reports make no mention of any injuries, so I expect there wasn't anyone inside the van).
 

table38

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Wow... was anyone in that... Transit Van? at the time?

The tunnel is used by a firm car mechanics (who often allowed people to explore) so hopefully not! I can see why they made us all wear hard hats last time although we assumed that was because of bits falling off rather than a collapse :)

Judging by the cladding (used to divert the water leaking in!) I'd guess it was the western end of the old station bit the mechanics occupy (although there were vehicles stored further down - which may now be inaccessible!)

Much further down, the Dingle tunnel crosses the roof of the main line between Brunswick and St Michaels (you can see the brickwork of the CLC tunnel in the floor of the Dingle tunnel) so good job that bit is still secure.

http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/dingle.html
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/dingle/index.shtml
 

jopsuk

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Not a transit either - Volkswagen T5 / Transporter. :)

I wonder what above ground structural issues this has resulted in, cosidering it's a rather residentual area above.

Significant, given that they're saying the people who lived in the houses above may never be allowed to return
 

John55

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Looking at the photo it looks to me (a non civil engineer) as though it is a partial collapse of a working shaft used to build the station back in the 1890s.

This is complete supposition on my behalf but the houses which are affected by this collapse were all built some time after the other houses in the streets so I am wondering if the access shaft was capped and built over (or very close to) after the construction of the station was completed.

With the shaft sealed top and bottom it is not possible to inspect the condition of the rock and so deterioration leading to sudden failure could easily occur.

When I went to have a look a few weeks ago there was no sign of the houses collapsing. But there may be a danger of further rock failures which might undermine the houses.
 

DXMachina

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^ fascinating. Makes you wonder if there are any more locations where vertical adits have been backfilled from above then forgotten.....
 

John55

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^ fascinating. Makes you wonder if there are any more locations where vertical adits have been backfilled from above then forgotten.....

Huge numbers of them especially in old mining areas.

In Box's standard work on the LOR he describes the rock though which this part of the tunnel & station was built as "...which is of a very treacherous character, heavy backs and wet clay beds being encountered...".
 

table38

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Interestingly http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/dingle.html says:

...605-yard tunnel cut beneath housing through unstable red sandstone. Five constructions shafts were sunk, each 10 feet square, from which headings of 11 feet and 12 feet were driven in each direction.

Dingle Station was below ground ... at 52 feet wide and more than 24 feet high, no tunnel arch of such magnitude had previously been constructed in Britain.
 

jon0844

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My joke was based on having seen such sights - but it's by no means anti-Liverpool. It was just that this tunnel was in Liverpool.

I live in Hatfield and could say the same about streets here, so don't take it so personally!
 

GRALISTAIR

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I had my post deleted by an anonymous moderator just for highlighting this post and its, yet again for RailUKforums, needless anti-Liverpool rhetoric. A thread related to Liverpool cannot go more than a few posts for someone makes some stupid, misinformed derogatory comment either about how uniquely awful the city is or how particularly terrible and criminal-natured the people are. QUOTE]

This is terrible. In a rail forum, with the historical significance of Liverpool to the railways and also the suffering they underwent in WW2, it really is awful. It is really nice that Liverpool -Manchester and then Trans-Pennine and also Liverpool-Preston is getting electrified and some investment.
 

Gareth

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My joke was based on having seen such sights - but it's by no means anti-Liverpool. It was just that this tunnel was in Liverpool.

I live in Hatfield and could say the same about streets here, so don't take it so personally!

But that's kind of my point. If it's not unique to Liverpool (though I've never known huge mountains of soil in front gardens to be common in Liverpool or anywhere else I've been), then why the statement? Not a Liverpool-related thread goes by on this thread without these odd comments and no other place in the UK seems to get anything like the same, unless I just don't notice it.

And that's pretty much all what I said in my deleted post. But I've made my point so I'm happy to move on from it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is terrible. In a rail forum, with the historical significance of Liverpool to the railways and also the suffering they underwent in WW2, it really is awful. It is really nice that Liverpool -Manchester and then Trans-Pennine and also Liverpool-Preston is getting electrified and some investment.

Thanks for the support. Not many people actually appreciate Liverpool's historical significance in the creation of the railway, including people from Liverpool. From the Rainhill Trials to the Overhead, even the modern Merseyrail system was a great forward-thinking project.

People often talk about how they should the Liverpool Overhead Railway. It'd be great as a DLR style system. The Merseyrail Northern Line probably parallels too much of the old route though.
 

jon0844

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I didn't mean it literally looked like a front garden with mountains of soil... but, hey, let's move on because I was simply referring to messy gardens - with cars/vans/fridges and other crap left in it.

There's a house near me that has old tank parts and army vehicles, which I am sure pleases the neighbours.
 

507 001

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My joke was based on having seen such sights - but it's by no means anti-Liverpool. It was just that this tunnel was in Liverpool.

I live in Hatfield and could say the same about streets here, so don't take it so personally!


No I have to agree with him. Even if you didnt mean it to be, your comment is rude.
 

jon0844

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In your opinion it is rude. I accept that, even if I disagree.

Anyway - rather than take the whole thread way off topic, I am more than happy to have my post and all the others relating to it removed by the moderators.
 

507 001

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In your opinion it is rude. I accept that, even if I disagree.

Anyway - rather than take the whole thread way off topic, I am more than happy to have my post and all the others relating to it removed by the moderators.

To be fair, yours should have been removed by the moderators before Gareth's.
And its not just my opinion it is fact. You could have chosen anywhere, even as you said yourself hatfield. Thing is though, you didn't. Obviously it wouldnt do to be derogatory towards your own home town so lets just pick the obvious one, Liverpool.

Liverpool has come on by a huge amount in the last 5-10 years, and scousers (even ones who don't like to admit it) are absolutely fed up with the stigma attached to our city.


On a more related note, I think it is incredibly sad to see such an important part of merseysides transport heritage ruined like this. I wonder what the chances of the tunnel being repaired are? I only wish I had paid a visit. Apparently there were quite a few relics down there including the turnback siding buffer stops!
 

ainsworth74

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And its not just my opinion it is fact.

No it is your opinion and not a fact. If it were a fact that I'd also be offended or find it rude and I didn't. If it were a fact then plenty of other people would have found it offensive or rude but seeing as the post stands it's clear not many people do. Also I'd suggest Liverpool was an obvious choice for the joke, in a thread about Liverpool! He could have chosen Middlesbrough (my home town and the butt of many jokes of its own) and I personally would have probably laughed and agreed with him. But it would have been a very strange choice of location on a thread about Liverpool, about a tunnel collapse that happened in Liverpool!
 

jon0844

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You could have chosen anywhere, even as you said yourself hatfield.

The tunnel collapse was in Liverpool, and I can and do joke about Hatfield (I am sure I have on here many times). I grew up in Cheshunt, Hertfordshire and there are plenty of nasty areas there - but maybe I shouldn't say anything bad now we have an Olympic Gold medallist from there and I might get swamped with hate mail?

Anyway, I don't see how seeing houses with people leaving junk on their front lawn is suddenly attacking everyone from Liverpool - especially when I've been to Liverpool numerous times and seen houses like that (just as I have elsewhere, including far nearer to home) so they do exist. I am sure you could say the same thing about every town and city in the entire UK, if not the world, so I wish I'd waited for a thread about another town with a similar photo!!
 
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RichmondCommu

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Unfortunately, in life it's often the case that people fail to engage their brains before opening their mouths. Or as my late Grandad would often say, engage brain before opening gob!

It's worth noting that the Conservative party actually considered abandoning Liverpool during the 1980's. And to think that some are considering giving Margaret Thatcher a state funeral. Good grief!
 

Tomonthetrain

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Unfortunately, in life it's often the case that people fail to engage their brains before opening their mouths. Or as my late Grandad would often say, engage brain before opening gob!

It's worth noting that the Conservative party actually considered abandoning Liverpool during the 1980's. And to think that some are considering giving Margaret Thatcher a state funeral. Good grief!

Surely there's nothing wrong with giving a former Prime Minister (who was the first woman one too) a decent send off.
 

RichmondCommu

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Surely there's nothing wrong with giving a former Prime Minister (who was the first woman one too) a decent send off.

Clearly you know little about modern history. The SE did very well out of Margaret Thatcher but no one else did. I'm not suggesting that Mrs Thatcher should be given anything but a decent burial but a state funeral is a step too far. Winston Churchill and Mrs Thatcher are not in the same bracket!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I have only just had sight of this thread for the first time and had hoped to see the matter of this tunnel being discussed and comparison made to other such related matters, but as the thread progressed, the postings seem to veer wildly off-topic in the later stages, with mention of the forum moderators being made on more than one occasion, which is indeed quite unfortunate.

It is the Infrastructure Forum and this thread is in its correct position. I found the information provided in the link information supplied to "Black Harry's Timebomb" concerning the collapse of a large infilled vertical shaft in the Salford area, with the loss of housing at the surface level above it to be most interesting and to be a good comparison.
 

Phil6219

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It is the Infrastructure Forum and this thread is in its correct position. I found the information provided in the link information supplied to "Black Harry's Timebomb" concerning the collapse of a large infilled vertical shaft in the Salford area, with the loss of housing at the surface level above it to be most interesting and to be a good comparison.

Indeed, as someone who grew up in Swinton I never knew about this until reading that article. I had known about the registry office but had been told at the time it was subsidence due to mining, fascinating stuff.

Phil 8-)
 

RPI

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I too found the initial story interesting but has gone off topic, it was an off the cuff joke made by someone, dont take it so seriously! Chill!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I too found the initial story interesting but has gone off topic, it was an off the cuff joke made by someone, dont take it so seriously! Chill!

I think that the comparison to the original story to the posting about "Black Harry's Timebomb" in the Swinton area of Salford was a good comparison and not at all off topic, as both stories featured the collapse of in infilled vertical shaft. Indeed, the Swinton event resulted in actual casualties.
 
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