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Liverpool St James - reopening - new name will be Liverpool Baltic

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Bletchleyite

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On the Rhine Rhur S1 line most stations have the city prefix in both Dortmund and Düsseldorf. I stayed at a hotel in Derendorf 5 minutes walk from Düsseldorf-Derendorf station which is only stopped at my S-bahn trains.

Multi-city S-Bahn systems like Rhein-Ruhr (are there any others?) are an example of "there is a specific benefit to doing so in that case". Merseyrail isn't (and isn't likely to be) a multi-city S-Bahn; even if it extends to Preston it will serve only one station in that city.
 
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Here's my tuppence on the naming...
It's several years since I spent any extended time in Liverpool, but a decade or so ago I never heard any talk of an area of the city being known as any variation on "Baltic Triangle". To be honest that name sounds like it was dreamt up by property speculators hoping to sell Urban Splash lofts to Russian and Chinese investment funds. It doesn't sound at all like a name that has developed organically.

If we were starting from scratch, St. James probably would be the ideal name, with James Street instead being something along the lines of "Waterfront". However we aren't starting from scratch, so that isn't really an option. Toxteth might have the reputation as a rough area (probably why St. Michael's wasn't called Toxteth, as alluded to upthread) but the way to rehabilitate an area usually isn't "pretend it doesn't exist". As such, but for the fact that the new station is only just in Toxteth, I'd support that name.

Personally, Baltic Triangle (or any variation thereof) sounds wrong to me for some reason- partially because it sounds artificial even if it isn't, and there's more than a hint of gentrification about it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Personally, Baltic Triangle (or any variation thereof) sounds wrong to me for some reason- partially because it sounds artificial even if it isn't, and there's more than a hint of gentrification about it.

While I know it does pose issues (though Liverpool is probably one of the best large cities in the country for the availability of affordable Victorian terraced housing to both buy and rent), I wouldn't call gentrification of an area that was somewhere between post-industrial wasteland and abject dump a bad thing. Very similar indeed to Ardwick and Beswick, the utter armpits of Manchester (far worse than Moss Side and Longsight which seem to carry most of the bad name) that are being improved no end.
 

61653 HTAFC

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While I know it does pose issues (though Liverpool is probably one of the best large cities in the country for the availability of affordable Victorian terraced housing to both buy and rent), I wouldn't call gentrification of an area that was somewhere between post-industrial wasteland and abject dump a bad thing. Very similar indeed to Ardwick and Beswick, the utter armpits of Manchester (far worse than Moss Side and Longsight which seem to carry most of the bad name) that are being improved no end.
At risk of going off-topic, not all regeneration is "gentrification"... but when areas start being rebranded or renamed, that's a fairly good indicator that property prices are set to skyrocket at the expense of locals.
 

D821

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In fairness, I don't think many were living in the area before they redeveloped it so no one has been forced out. Ironically, since it became a 'cool' area, rents have gone up and some of the trendy venues have been hit with noise complaints from new flats. If you're going to buy a new place next to a nightclub, it's your own fault if you find it too noisy...
 

John Luxton

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While I know it does pose issues (though Liverpool is probably one of the best large cities in the country for the availability of affordable Victorian terraced housing to both buy and rent), I wouldn't call gentrification of an area that was somewhere between post-industrial wasteland and abject dump a bad thing. Very similar indeed to Ardwick and Beswick, the utter armpits of Manchester (far worse than Moss Side and Longsight which seem to carry most of the bad name) that are being improved no end.
I agree.

Having lived in Liverpool all my life (62 years) in the area where there traditional terraces start to change to more recent housing the changes I have seen in the last 35 years have been nothing but remarkable, with quite a lot of credit due to Michael Heseltine.

It is unfortunate though that Liverpool has become a bit of a political point scoring place for the left - not helped by some dubious politicians and their developer cronies past and present.

As someone one the right of the political spectrum (Yes there are some of us here in Liverpool!) I welcome any sort of gentrification as it may well change the city's political outlook.

A few outsiders have commented on the emotional psyche of the city including the PM who back in the early noughties commented:

"They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it.”

Whilst I currently have issues with BoJo over Covid matters that comment hit the nail on the head - but so many were offended by it.

We need to attract to the city the right sort of people to redress the balance and a bit of gentrification does just that. :D
 

D821

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"They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it.”

Whilst I currently have issues with BoJo over Covid matters that comment hit the nail on the head - but so many were offended by it.
And why do you think that was? Hillsborough ringing any bells with you?
 

Bletchleyite

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And why do you think that was? Hillsborough ringing any bells with you?

Hillsborough was both tragic and disgraceful, and the Sun is not sold in Liverpool to this day as a result (no shop will willingly stock it, and even if they did none would be sold, and the chance of them being stolen and destroyed or the shop boycotted would be high). However, there is an element of truth in the general point that still existed before Hillsborough. Manchester certainly has a more dynamic attitude than Liverpool.

But things like the Baltic Triangle are an example of that dynamic attitude coming to Liverpool, brought there by younger people who want to live in urban areas and make them nice places to be, but perhaps can't afford Manchester, as it is really getting quite expensive, even for quite poor quality housing in rough areas. While I doubt you'll find someone in their 20s in Liverpool who is willing to buy the Sun "newspaper" (and good on them, it's junk* and nobody should buy it anywhere, regardless of Hillsborough), there is a much more upbeat and dynamic attitude to be found among them than in many older Scousers.

It's a great development and it deserves to do well.

(And yes, I'm now a Bletchleyite, but for those not familiar I grew up in the Liverpool area until age 18, so I'm quite familiar with it, other than the drinking scene which I've only experienced once on a stag do).

* I have a problem with newspapers who seek to push political views on those who are often inadequately educated to understand the issues themselves. That's what the Sun does and why it's much more harmful than the similarly junk Mail/Express - because those two are generally just bought by people who already have right wing political views and just want to live in an echo chamber - they don't seek to influence people like the Sun does.
 
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The exile

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Multi-city S-Bahn systems like Rhein-Ruhr (are there any others?) are an example of "there is a specific benefit to doing so in that case". Merseyrail isn't (and isn't likely to be) a multi-city S-Bahn; even if it extends to Preston it will serve only one station in that city.
Most of Merseyrail is, however, not in Liverpool. On the first point, add in Leipzig/Halle, Rhein/Main and even “Berlin”, the latter two not only serving more than one city, but more than one state capital city!
 

Bletchleyite

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Most of Merseyrail is, however, not in Liverpool. On the first point, add in Leipzig/Halle, Rhein/Main and even “Berlin”, the latter two not only serving more than one city, but more than one state capital city!

It's not in the City of Liverpool, no. But as I mentioned above, it's almost all in the Liverpool City Region, which is what Germany would consider to be the city, rather than an arbitrary part of it. There are I think only 9 stations not in the Liverpool City Region - the stations beyond Hooton and those beyond Maghull North.

There is no confusion to be caused on Merseyrail by not prefixing stations, and if you did stuff like "Ormskirk Town Green" you'd just start annoying people, while "Chester Bache" is just an ugly and pointless mouthful. It makes as much sense as the Tube starting to do things like "Camden Euston".
 
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John Luxton

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Hillsborough was both tragic and disgraceful, and the Sun is not sold in Liverpool to this day as a result (no shop will willingly stock it, and even if they did none would be sold, and the chance of them being stolen and destroyed or the shop boycotted would be high). However, there is an element of truth in the general point that still existed before Hillsborough. Manchester certainly has a more dynamic attitude than Liverpool.

But things like the Baltic Triangle are an example of that dynamic attitude coming to Liverpool, brought there by younger people who want to live in urban areas and make them nice places to be, but perhaps can't afford Manchester, as it is really getting quite expensive, even for quite poor quality housing in rough areas. While I doubt you'll find someone in their 20s in Liverpool who is willing to buy the Sun "newspaper" (and good on them, it's junk* and nobody should buy it anywhere, regardless of Hillsborough), there is a much more upbeat and dynamic attitude to be found among them than in many older Scousers.

It's a great development and it deserves to do well.

(And yes, I'm now a Bletchleyite, but for those not familiar I grew up in the Liverpool area until age 18, so I'm quite familiar with it, other than the drinking scene which I've only experienced once on a stag do).

* I have a problem with newspapers who seek to push political views on those who are often inadequately educated to understand the issues themselves. That's what the Sun does and why it's much more harmful than the similarly junk Mail/Express - because those two are generally just bought by people who already have right wing political views and just want to live in an echo chamber - they don't seek to influence people like the Sun does.
My family had a newsagents shop from 1938 to 2007 on Smithdown Road, Liverpool.

We never stopped selling the Sun in the wake of Hillsborough.

The boycott seemed very pointless because people would often buy other papers from the same company (News International - now News Group).

If they were that offended why did they continue to buy the likes of the News of the World, Times and Sunday Times? All from the same company.

I think due to where our shop was located - very much in "student land" and on the edge of the leafier suburbs there was not the same emotional backlash against the Sun.

It was never a big seller in our shop before Hillsborough same could be said for the other "red tops" as they were referred to. The Sun and Star were always at the rubbish end of the newspaper spectrum.

Our sales were mainly Times, Telegraph, Guardian - with Daily Mail and Express probably being the most popular two papers in our area.

However, this continuing animosity against he Sun is really rather ridiculous now as the paper did apologise. It is rather like some of those in Liverpool who still can't stand the Germans because of the Blitz. I recall some old guy about 20 years ago threatening to throw his war time medals into the Mersey because a German navy ship make a courtesy call.

Too many people in Liverpool hold grudges - that is why so many negative images of Liverpool have been created. - They can't move on.

We need to gentrify to bring in new blood - believe me and dilute the gene pool! :D

Perhaps I see things slightly differently as though born and raised here much of my ancestry is from families that originated in Cornwall and Somerset and moved here via Wales and Lancashire between the early 1900s and 1930s. So perhaps I am an outsider - I know I think like one!
 

Fokx

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Here's my tuppence on the naming...

If we were starting from scratch, St. James probably would be the ideal name, with James Street instead being something along the lines of "Waterfront". However we aren't starting from scratch, so that isn't really an option.

Stand in Liverpool for an hour with a map and ask people to point to “St James’s” and at best you might get someone pointing to James Street or the nearby St Michaels.

Ask the same person to point to “Baltic Triangle” and a greater number will be able to do so
 

Djgr

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Here's my tuppence on the naming...
It's several years since I spent any extended time in Liverpool, but a decade or so ago I never heard any talk of an area of the city being known as any variation on "Baltic Triangle". To be honest that name sounds like it was dreamt up by property speculators hoping to sell Urban Splash lofts to Russian and Chinese investment funds. It doesn't sound at all like a name that has developed organically.

If we were starting from scratch, St. James probably would be the ideal name, with James Street instead being something along the lines of "Waterfront". However we aren't starting from scratch, so that isn't really an option. Toxteth might have the reputation as a rough area (probably why St. Michael's wasn't called Toxteth, as alluded to upthread) but the way to rehabilitate an area usually isn't "pretend it doesn't exist". As such, but for the fact that the new station is only just in Toxteth, I'd support that name.

Personally, Baltic Triangle (or any variation thereof) sounds wrong to me for some reason- partially because it sounds artificial even if it isn't, and there's more than a hint of gentrification about it.
It should be noted that Liverpool City centre has changed beyond recognition in the past decade or so. I would suggest that if you have not heard of the Baltic Triangle then you are not really on the pulse.

Liverpool will never forgive Hillsborough and its links to the government of the time. It is certainly one of the most disgraceful events in my lifetime but it is integral to understanding the city and how it perceives itself against the rest of the country.
 

Bletchleyite

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Our sales were mainly Times, Telegraph, Guardian - with Daily Mail and Express probably being the most popular two papers in our area.

That sounds very much like the student market. The Mirror was classically a very popular national in Liverpool, my Grandad switched to it from the Sun after Hillsborough. Though despite its awful clickbait website, the Echo I believe still does reasonably well - it is somewhere that likes the local news.
 

John Luxton

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That sounds very much like the student market. The Mirror was classically a very popular national in Liverpool, my Grandad switched to it from the Sun after Hillsborough. Though despite its awful clickbait website, the Echo I believe still does reasonably well - it is somewhere that likes the local news.
The echo is dreadful as you say it is click bait - but ALL the Reach plc web sites and FB pages are like this I visit Cornwall / Devon / Plymouth and North Wales Live sites as well as the Echo and they tend to run th same stories and usually end up getting people arguing in the comments sections! The quality of journalism these days is very poor when it comes to Echo's transport coverage. They did have a good chap who was particularly knowledgeable, particularly in shipping matters, until around 10 years ago - but since then - oh dear! :D

It should be noted that Liverpool City centre has changed beyond recognition in the past decade or so. I would suggest that if you have not heard of the Baltic Triangle then you are not really on the pulse.

Liverpool will never forgive Hillsborough and its links to the government of the time. It is certainly one of the most disgraceful events in my lifetime but it is integral to understanding the city and how it perceives itself against the rest of the country.
Baltic Triange appears to get its name from the Baltic Fleet pub which is quite some distance away from the new station I would estimate somewhat further than the Anglican Cathedral! - I would still think Cathedral would be a better name.
 

D821

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However, this continuing animosity against he Sun is really rather ridiculous now as the paper did apologise.

Not ridiculous at all, the apology was an empty one; it had a token 'sorry' and then focused on suggesting peoples' anger was because the Liverpool Echo and Radio City had whipped them up. Both outlets were then owned by the rival Mirror Group, leaving the apology pretty worthless, and little more than a dig at a rival.

Baltic Triange appears to get its name from the Baltic Fleet pub which is quite some distance away from the new station I would estimate somewhat further than the Anglican Cathedral! - I would still think Cathedral would be a better name.
There does seem to be a bit of debate on this. Wikipedia has an uncited suggestion that it was to do with the number of warehouses there containing timber from Norway, though I wouldn't say the term 'Baltic' encompasses Norway.
 

John Luxton

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Not ridiculous at all, the apology was an empty one; it had a token 'sorry' and then focused on suggesting peoples' anger was because the Liverpool Echo and Radio City had whipped them up. Both outlets were then owned by the rival Mirror Group, leaving the apology pretty worthless, and little more than a dig at a rival.


There does seem to be a bit of debate on this. Wikipedia has an uncited suggestion that it was to do with the number of warehouses there containing timber from Norway, though I wouldn't say the term 'Baltic' encompasses Norway.
There is the Swedish church Gustav Adolf's Kyrka in the area - but one tends to think of Scandinavian rather than Baltic.

As for the papers there probably is some truth in that Mirror group were stirring things up the Echo has become as much of a rag as the Sun is!
 

urbophile

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As for the papers there probably is some truth in that Mirror group were stirring things up the Echo has become as much of a rag as the Sun is!
The Echo is well known for poor research, recycling press releases, and generally crappy journalism. But while I wouldn't rely on it as a news source, it (or at least the few human beings who have any input into it) does seem to have some understanding of Liverpool and its people. It does not indulge in blatant lies and deliberate misrepresentation in the service of rightwing oligarchs like the S*n does.

Back to topic - one of the problems of finding a name for the station is that the area had little distinctive identity until the recent redevelopment. 'Baltic Triangle' may be an invented name but it seems to have stuck. ('Baltic Triangle' would be a better name for the station than 'Liverpool Baltic' or even just 'Baltic'). The nearest landmark is Cain's Brewery but it hasn't been a brewery for a few years. The Parisian custom of naming stations after street intersections doesn't seem to have caught on in this country, or Park-Parliament might have worked.
 

Gareth

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Too many people in Liverpool hold grudges - that is why so many negative images of Liverpool have been created. - They can't move on.

We need to gentrify to bring in new blood - believe me and dilute the gene pool! :D

Perhaps I see things slightly differently as though born and raised here much of my ancestry is from families that originated in Cornwall and Somerset and moved here via Wales and Lancashire between the early 1900s and 1930s. So perhaps I am an outsider - I know I think like one!

Yep, you have a case of Bad Ming Disease. Extra tragic if you still live here. Gonna have to self-isolate.

Most Liverpool people just want to be left alone. Ideally, this would include being able to govern ourselves (or misgovern ourselves, as the case may be) but just not chucking unprovoked **** at us would be a start. We're sick of being used as an ethnic punching bag by a people who won't actually stick up for themselves when faced by people who actually hate them (much of Ireland and half of Scotland, just for starters). I fear, now that picking on virtually any other minority is a so-called "hate crime", this could get worse in coming years. Perhaps an educational programme and possibly even counselling, needs to be set up to combat BMD and its close relative SDS (Scouse Derangement Syndrome). Too many on here suffer from this and it's annoying for Liverpool posters when they manage to derail pretty much every thread which covers the city.

Right, back to topic - one of the problems of finding a name for the station is that the area had little distinctive identity until the recent redevelopment. 'Baltic Triangle' may be an invented name but it seems to have stuck. ('Baltic Triangle' would be a better name for the station than 'Liverpool Baltic' or even just 'Baltic'). The nearest landmark is Cain's Brewery but it hasn't been a brewery for a few years. The Parisian custom of naming stations after street intersections doesn't seem to have caught on in this country, or Park-Parliament might have worked.

The area is St James, as the original station was called. That would be the best name but it's understandable that they don't want to cause confusion with James Street.

Personally, I'd be okay with renaming James Street. The street it's named for isn't really the major destination or thoroughfare for the area (that would be the dock road or "Strand"). Obviously though, it's easier to leave an existing station alone and name the new one. Also, it's been called James Street since it opened in the late 19th Century and, along with Hamilton Square, is the genesis of the Merseyrail network; so I can understand why some wouldn't want to mess with tradition.

Out of the options, Liverpool Parliament Street is the least worst. Just Parliament Street would be better. Baltic Triangle would be okay, I suppose, but it's outside the area I tend to think of (which is an actual triangle of streets). Seems they want to see the wider area as a single district and so are dropping the "Triangle" bit of the name. Not sure how I feel about it. Maybe I could get used to it.
 
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Cowley

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Can we leave the stuff about newspapers/the Sun out of this thread from here please.
It really isn’t relevant and is actually a bit antagonistic too.
Thanks
 

Chester1

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The "artificial" name thing is a debate in Manchester too. The New Islington area is labelled as an artificial result of gentrification and not used by older Mancs but its named after New Islington Wharf in the middle of the area. The redevelopment of the area massively increased its population and facilities making a distinction between it and the rest of Ancoats useful from a practical perspective, not just commercial. If there is significant development planned for the area around the old St James Street station then renaming the area the Baltic Triangle makes practical sense, and the naming the station after the area makes sense too. Calling it St James Street would cause confusion, even if James Street was named. I am not a local so I won't vote.
 

Bletchleyite

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Also, stations are often named for what they serve rather than where they specifically are. This new station would serve the Baltic Triangle, and calling it that would make that clear so people going to the Baltic Triangle might use it. It is also closer to the actual Triangle than Luton Airport Parkway is to Luton Airport, for instance. As a traffic source (which it will also be) the name scarcely matters, as locals will know where it is and what it is called regardless.
 

Bevan Price

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Neither of my preferred choices are options. Parliament Street would be my first choice, followed by Baltic Triangle.
The area near the Swedish church has become widely described as "Baltic Triangle", not plain "Baltic".
Sticking "Liverpool" in front of Parliament Street makes it too much of a mouthful, and is unnecessary as it is obvious that the station will be in the Liverpool area.
And finally, does anyone expect politicians to devise sensible names?
 

Skie

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Prefixing everything with the city name is all a bit Manchester.

Really do prefer Baltic Triangle over any of the other options. A new station can trigger a lot of development so even if the name is a loose concept now, in 50 years time it can cement the name of the area and people won't even think that the name of the station could have been anything else.
 

Chester1

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Prefixing everything with the city name is all a bit Manchester.

Really do prefer Baltic Triangle over any of the other options. A new station can trigger a lot of development so even if the name is a loose concept now, in 50 years time it can cement the name of the area and people won't even think that the name of the station could have been anything else.

Manchester prefix is only used for stations served by long distance services. Deansgate is just Deansgate. I am not a fan of naming stations after roads if they are of any significant length. Naming after an area is a clearer option.

Liverpool prefix is not needed for a Merseyrail only station. Lime Street and South Parkway are the only stations that really need it. I am guessing the name Liverpool Central is a legacy of the overground terminal.
 

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Regarding the name. Back in the days of wooden ships, a lot of timber was imported, particularly for masts, from the countries fringing the Baltic and it seems that part of Liverpool was a centre for the traders. Norway, which is not on the Baltic, was also a major trading partner, but seems to have been lumped in with all the other countries ‘over that way’. Timber was a useful industry in large, sparsely-populated countries.
 
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