Liverpool to Exmouth but which route?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Hi we're holidaying in South Devon in late August. Check in at our holiday park near Exmouth opens at 4pm so we're looking at getting there between 4pm and 5pm ish so we can get settled and have something to eat before the evening entertainment starts at 7pm.

To do so for the cheapest price I'm looking at splitting the tickets but there are two slight route variations so I'd just like people's thoughts first before I purchase the tickets. There will be two adults and three children traveling.

A further consideration would be that we, along with many others will be towing a couple of suitcases, plus a large disabled pram which is rather awkward to fold down as it needs to be dismantled first. If possible the missus would like to keep the pram up.

We will be using a Family Railcard but for the sake of simplicity I'll just refer to the ticket prices in terms of per adult single.

Please note that standard class on the Cross Country between Birmingham and Cheltenham Spa, for the times we wish to travel, already appears to have sold out so I'll exclude that from my workings.

Date of travel is Saturday 25th August. So here we go:

Route #1

(Liverpool - Birmingham London Midland service)
10:34 Liverpool
12:17 Birmingham NS [£9 Advance]

(Manchester Pic - Bristol Cross Country service)
12:42 Birmingham NS
13:23 Cheltenham Spa [£10.50 Advance]
split
13:25 Cheltenham Spa
13:57 Bristol Parkway [£7.50 Advance / £8.10 Off Peak]

(Dundee - Newquay Cross Country service)
14:28 Bristol Parkway
15:45 Exeter St Davids [£9.50 Advance]

TOTAL: £37.10

Route #2

(Liverpool - Birmingham London Midland service)
10:04 Liverpool
11:47 Birmingham NS [£9 Advance]

(Nottingham - Cardiff Cross Country Service)
12:30 Birmingham NS
13:10 Cheltenham Spa [£8 Advance]

(Dundee - Newquay Cross Country service)
13:52 Cheltenham Spa
14:26 Bristol Parkway [£7.50 Advance / £8.10 Off Peak]
split
14:28 Bristol Parkway
15:45 Exeter St Davids [£9.50 Advance]

TOTAL: £34.60

So a couple of quid cheaper on the second route with longer (and arguably more safer) waits between connections but the first route is slightly quicker and allows an extra half an hour to get the kids ready in the morning. I've omitted the legs between our home Thatto Heath to Liverpool LS and Exeter to Exmouth as it's all off peak local trains on those routes.

Your opinions please.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

David

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,103
Location
Scunthorpe
Seeing as you will have luggage and a pram with you, then I suggest you change at Wolverhampton instead of Birmingham.

At worst, it's a cross platform change instead of having to (possibly) lug everything from 1 side of New Street to the other.
 

IanD

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2011
Messages
2,662
Location
Newport Pagnell
I'd consider

Hybrid Route #3
(Liverpool - Birmingham London Midland service)
10:34 Liverpool
12:17 Birmingham NS [£9 Advance]

(Manchester Pic - Bristol Cross Country service)
12:42 Birmingham NS
13:23 Cheltenham Spa [£10.50 Advance]

(Dundee - Newquay Cross Country service)
13:52 Cheltenham Spa
14:26 Bristol Parkway [£7.50 Advance / £8.10 Off Peak]
split
14:28 Bristol Parkway
15:45 Exeter St Davids [£9.50 Advance]

TOTAL: £37.10

And possibly try changing at Wolverhampton instead of Birmingham.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
And possibly try changing at Wolverhampton instead of Birmingham.
For the OP's benefit, please remember that if you book an Advance fare, you must stick to your itinerary, therefore you will not be permitted to change at Wolverhampton if your itinerary is for changing at Birmingham.
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Thanks for the Wolverhampton tip. It's exactly the same price from there to Cheltenham as it is from Birmingham so we'll probably do that.

Do you think getting the 10:34 from Liverpool on route #1 is safe because if it's cancelled we'd be stuffed. Whereas going the second route, if the first Lime Street to Birmingham train is cancelled and we have to get the next one, it at least allows 13 minutes to make a mercy dash across New Street....(?)
 
Last edited:

button_boxer

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
1,270
Do you think getting the 10:34 from Liverpool on route #1 is safe because if it's cancelled we'd be stuffed. Whereas going the second route, if the first Lime Street to Birmingham train is cancelled and we have to get the next one, it at least allows 13 minutes to make a mercy dash across New Street....(?)
Depends what you mean by "safe". If delays occur while travelling that cause you to miss any of your connections then the relevant TOC must put you on the next available trains for no extra charge to get you to your destination.

As long as you catch the first train on your itinerary at Thatto Heath and you have left at least the minimum connection time at all interchanges it makes no difference that you are travelling on split tickets, it's one journey and the TOCs are obliged to get you to Exmouth in the end.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,364
Location
Yorkshire
Do you think getting the 10:34 from Liverpool on route #1 is safe because if it's cancelled we'd be stuffed. Whereas going the second route, if the first Lime Street to Birmingham train is cancelled and we have to get the next one, it at least allows 13 minutes to make a mercy dash across New Street....(?)
Not sure what you mean by "safe" or "stuffed". How time critical is your arrival time? If it's just to get food, then I suppose the worst that will happen you won't have time for a proper meal. The XC train will probably have a (overpriced) trolley, but nothing substantial (we once got someone to bring on freshly baked Pizza Express pizzas at York while undertaking a Penzance-Dundee journey on one train as the trolley offering is useless for such a long journey).

The rules of Advance tickets are that if delays occur to your journey, you will be conveyed on later trains. I agree with button_boxer's post.
 

Birdbrain

Member
Joined
16 Jun 2007
Messages
392
Don't know if the railcard makes a difference but with a Y-P you can book the whole trip for £27.05 leaving Liverpool on the 13:04 arriving 17:46 at Exeter.
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Oh right that's news to me. I was always under the impression when you booked split tickets that if you missed one or more of your connections, due to the previous train being delayed, it was a case of hard luck and you would be liable to pay again. I just assumed that was the risk associated with scrimping on the tickets like this?

The shortest waiting time between any of our connections en route will be 25 minutes. Will that be viewed as as reasonable under the "minimum connection time" rules?

In the eventuality that we miss a connection and have to get the next train would they let us on for free or would we have to pay the fare then claim it back off the previous TOC?

I was originally planning to book Off Peak tickets between Cheltenham and Bristol, because they're only 60p more per adult, but now that I'm aware of the above would I be better off sticking to Advance tickets like the rest of the journey?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
The shortest waiting time between any of our connections en route will be 25 minutes. Will that be viewed as as reasonable under the "minimum connection time" rules?
Minimum connection times are specified in the National Rail Timetable. This is 5 minutes at most stations, but longer at larger stations. I am not aware of any same-station transfer requiring a minimum of 25 minutes so you are absolutely fine.

In the eventuality that we miss a connection and have to get the next train would they let us on for free or would we have to pay the fare then claim it back off the previous TOC?
You should be allowed to travel on the next service without paying. After all you might not have extra money with you.

The guard on the train after the one you are booked on could check with his control if wants to verify the delays.

I was originally planning to book Off Peak tickets between Cheltenham and Bristol, because they're only 60p more per adult, but now that I'm aware of the above would I be better off sticking to Advance tickets like the rest of the journey?
I think for the sake of 60p, I would go for the Off-Peak ticket for the extra flexibility it offers. You never know what could happen.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
50,364
Location
Yorkshire
Oh right that's news to me. I was always under the impression when you booked split tickets that if you missed one or more of your connections, due to the previous train being delayed, it was a case of hard luck and you would be liable to pay again. I just assumed that was the risk associated with scrimping on the tickets like this?
I've never been in any doubt. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow you to use two or more tickets for one journey. The Advance ticket conditions allow you to take later trains when you are delayed in order to complete your journey. This has been clarified in the Advance Fares FAQ last Summer as one or two people still tried to argue against all logic.

It surprises me that any other interpretation is possible, after all it would be absurd if the Railway tried to penalise passengers for a delay on the Railway!
The shortest waiting time between any of our connections en route will be 25 minutes. Will that be viewed as as reasonable under the "minimum connection time" rules?
Each station has a minimum interchange time (the time can be found at National Rail Enquiries e.g. [stn]BHM[/stn] is 12 minutes, which is longer than the usual 5 minutes). If staying within the same station, 25 minutes will always be enough to satisfy the minimum interchange time requirements for any domestic journey.
In the eventuality that we miss a connection and have to get the next train would they let us on for free or would we have to pay the fare then claim it back off the previous TOC?
The conditions state that you will be allowed to complete your journey.

There is absolutely no obligation to carry any money with you (other than the correct fare if buying on board - not applicable here).

If any member of staff attempted to collect additional money, you could refer them to The Manual, which they will be familiar with, specifically the Advance Fares FAQ page.
I was originally planning to book Off Peak tickets between Cheltenham and Bristol, because they're only 60p more per adult, but now that I'm aware of the above would I be better off sticking to Advance tickets like the rest of the journey?
If the difference between flexible fares and Advance fares is minimal, I will always go for the flexible fare. I will only book an Advance fare if there is a substantial saving to be made. You never know when the flexibility will be useful! But that's just my opinion; others will differ!
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Would the fact we travelled on Off Peak tickets for one particular leg earlier on in the journey (sandwiched between Advance tickets before and after) not complicate things if we missed an interchange and have to travel on a later train further down the line?

Also regarding the first train between Thatto Heath and Lime Street I will be using my local PTE season ticket, whereas the rest of our group will be travelling on paper tickets, will I still be covered if the Thatto Heath train is late?
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
Would the fact we travelled on Off Peak tickets for one particular leg earlier on in the journey (sandwiched between Advance tickets before and after) not complicate things if we missed an interchange and have to travel on a later train further down the line?

Also regarding the first train between Thatto Heath and Lime Street I will be using my local PTE season ticket, whereas the rest of our group will be travelling on paper tickets, will I still be covered if the Thatto Heath train is late?
NRCoC Condition 19 states,

NRCoC 19 said:
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
Clause (b) applies to your situation. Regardless of the ticket type, as long as you hold valid tickets for all parts of your journey then Condition 19 applies.

As long as it is one journey, you will be covered in the event of delays to one leg causing you to miss the next leg, provided that minumum interchange times have been adhered to.

See Q4 here.
 

IanD

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2011
Messages
2,662
Location
Newport Pagnell
In general, I too would not get an advance ticket if a flexible ticket was available for only a little more. However, I don't see the point on wasting any money on the off peak rather than advance tickets in this particular case. They're single tickets so only valid on the day in question, less than £10 so no value for a refund after the £10 admin charge and sandwiched between two advances so you're on that train anyway. May only save 40p (after railcard discount) per adult but that's 40p to spend on something else!
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Thanks that's brilliant. I'll go ahead and book them tonight.

Just one final question and I hope this doesn't sound too daft.

I've decided to make the first interchange at Wolverhampton but since the fare from Liverpool to Wolverhampton is the same as that from Liverpool to Birmingham (ie. both £9), and likewise the fare from Wolverhampton or Birmingham to Cheltenham is also the same (both £10.50) would I be allowed to overlap some of the stations on the different tickets and still be covered in the event of a delayed train?

Eg. Would I be allowed to book the following:

Leg #1
Liverpool to
Birmingham (but alight at Wolverhampton)

Leg #2
Wolverhampton to
Cheltenham

Sorry if that sounds like I'm overcomplicating things but I just thought it might keep more options open just in case of the unlikely event that one of the kids has a temporary bout of sickness just before Wolverhampton or we fall asleep or whatever.
 
Last edited:

Squaddie

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2009
Messages
1,073
Location
London
If you're using Advance tickets you must board and alight at the stations specified on the ticket. If you don't, the ticket is invalid and you are liable to pay the full one-way fare for the journey you have made.
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
When attempting to book the tickets for the Cheltenham to Bristol leg I forgot to add a seat reservation so I deleted the selection except when I now search again all the tickets for every time train on that route have suddenly jumped up in price. Is it a problem with the cookies on my computer or something? As I've noticed this kind of thing happening before.
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
When attempting to book the tickets for the Cheltenham to Bristol leg I forgot to add a seat reservation so I deleted the selection except when I now search again all the tickets for every time train on that route have suddenly jumped up in price. Is it a problem with the cookies on my computer or something? As I've noticed this kind of thing happening before.
Sometimes if a ticket is placed in the basket it is held for 2 hours, meaning you might temporarily see a jump in price if you search again if that were the last one in the quota at that price level.

Of course the other possibility is that someone else snapped it up while you waited. So it is not always guaranteed to reappear.

Have you checked your basket to see if it is still in there?
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
Right I've now booked the 13:52 from Cheltenham to Exeter. Arriving at Exeter @ 15:45 (tickets split at Temple Meads).

Another question. The official minimum connection time at New Street is 12 minutes. There's a cheaper option of getting the 12:30 from New Street to Cheltenham (Nottingham to Cardiff train) which allows for a 13 minute connection time at Birmingham after alighting the incoming train from Liverpool. Which would go as follows:

10:34 Liverpool
12:17 Birmingham NS (platform 4B)

12:30 Birmingham NS (platform 12B)
13:10 Cheltenham

So for example in a situation were we arrived 5 minutes late at Birmingham. Obviously we would still have got there before 12:30 but we'd only have 8 minutes remaining to make it across to platform 12B. In such circumstances would we be allowed to miss our connection if we couldn't make it to the other platform in time?

Does 13 minutes sound wise considering we'd be dragging kids, suitcases and a pram?

The alternative would be the other train via Wolverhampton which would give additional connection time but costs £4 or £5 more altogether.

If we did miss the connection at New Street, remembering our tickets state we're supposed to make a further change at Cheltenham for the sake of saving money, could we then just get the next direct train straight from Birmingham to Exeter? Or would we be required to change at Cheltenham (Nottingham to Cardiff train) again as that's what our tickets said?
 
Last edited:

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
10:34 Liverpool
12:17 Birmingham NS (platform 4B)

12:30 Birmingham NS (platform 12B)
13:10 Cheltenham

So for example in a situation were we arrived 5 minutes late at Birmingham. Obviously we would still have got there before 12:30 but we'd only have 8 minutes remaining to make it across to platform 12B. In such circumstances would we be allowed to miss our connection if we couldn't make it to the other platform in time?
There should be enough time to make your connection in 8 minutes, even with kids and luggage in tow and having to use the lifts. Anything less than 5 minutes then you could be pushing it, in which case, you will have to use the next train.

If you do miss your connection despite having 8 minutes to change, then I recommend you seek help from staff, who should arrange for you to use the next available service.

Does 13 minutes sound wise considering we'd be dragging kids, suitcases and a pram?
Probably not, however you are not obliged to have a longer gap for your connection to be a valid one.

If we did miss the connection at New Street, remembering our tickets state we're supposed to make a further change at Cheltenham for the sake of saving money, could we then just get the next direct train straight from Birmingham to Exeter? Or would we be required to change at Cheltenham (Nottingham to Cardiff train) again as that's what our tickets said?
If you miss your connection at New Street and the next train is the one you would change on to at Cheltenham according to your itinerary, then of course you will be allowed to remain on that train.
 

Merseyrail

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
50
There should be enough time to make your connection in 8 minutes, even with kids and luggage in tow and having to use the lifts. Anything less than 5 minutes then you could be pushing it, in which case, you will have to use the next train.

If you do miss your connection despite having 8 minutes to change, then I recommend you seek help from staff, who should arrange for you to use the next available service.



Probably not, however you are not obliged to have a longer gap for your connection to be a valid one.



If you miss your connection at New Street and the next train is the one you would change on to at Cheltenham according to your itinerary, then of course you will be allowed to remain on that train.
That's what I was thinking. Everything we still be "legal" with that 13 minute gap and it could actually work out quite beneficial if our train from Liverpool into New Street ends up being delayed as the next direct one from New Street we'd be joining later down the track at Cheltenham anyway.

So I'll book the 10:34 from Lime Street to Birmingham tonight then.

There's no rule that says I have to book all tickets in the same transaction is there? (in a situation where trains on the day are delayed etc?)
 

bb21

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
4 Feb 2010
Messages
23,839
There's no rule that says I have to book all tickets in the same transaction is there? (in a situation where trains on the day are delayed etc?)
No such requirement exists, as long as you have valid connections.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top