Liverpool to Norwich services to end at December 2021 timetable change

[chubs]

It would make the departure boards at Ely easier to understand. It doesn't help to have trains to Liverpool Street and Liverpool Lime Street on the same screen.

We have that at Norwich all day every day and manage to survive.....

 

[pemma]

You would think TPE keeping the 185's is no brainer in order to accommodate this, either by using the 185's directly of displacing the Loco Hauled stock onto this route.

Yes but it might not go down well with the passengers who see their 185s replaced by mk5s and then see the mk5s replaced by 185s again.

How many diagrams would Liverpool to Nottingham require?

 

[dk1]

How many diagrams would Liverpool to Nottingham require?

Seven assuming the current timetable. That however is based on single units which would be a sizeable reduction on the seating offered now with 2x158s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but it might not go down well with the passengers who see their 185s replaced by mk5s and then see the mk5s replaced by 185s again.

2x185 has more capacity than a Mk5 set.

 

[pemma]

Seven assuming the current timetable. That however is based on single units which would be a sizeable reduction on the seating offered now with 2x158s.

But if it's TPE and they decide to use the mk5 sets that means around half of them are needed and it would mean an increase in capacity (5 carriages instead of 4 even if one's a DVT with fewer seats.)

 

[pemma]

2x185 has more capacity than a Mk5 set.

It's not just about capacity though. TPE are promising things like more table seats, more luggage space etc. I also think the mk5s will have actual power sockets, while the 185s will just have USB charging points, which might not go down well with those using laptops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not just about capacity though. TPE are promising things like more table seats, more luggage space etc. I also think the mk5s will have actual power sockets, while the 185s will just have USB charging points, which might not go down well with those using laptops.

Have you ever travelled on a Class 185?

 

[pemma]

Have you ever travelled on a Class 185?

Yes many times on TPE North, TPE South and former TPE North West routes.

 

[MikeWM]

I see no positives for the travelling public in this change. What can possibly be improved by removing direct services, and splitting one route across operators? Nottingham is a pain in the arse to connect in, given the distance of many of the eastern platforms from the two overbridges.

This I would agree with - last time I tried to do Liverpool -> Ely on this service they decided we needed to change trains at Nottingham. Despite being reassured it would be a cross-platform interchange, we were brought all the way into Platform 4b and the other train was on Platform 2. Which is an irritatingly long way to have to walk when you weren't expecting to have to do anything. (Then the replacement train was absolutely filthy from whoever had been on it previously, and a good number of the seats were entirely unusable due to rubbish strewn everywhere - but that's another issue).

Though out of the last three times I've tried to do this service (in the last 18 months or so), twice we've been required to do an unscheduled change at Nottingham. Which is probably just bad luck, but it would imply that splitting at Nottingham is still fairly common (if not quite as common as 67% of the time!).

 

[MikeWM]

My personal view: The staggering Growth in recent years of the Cambridge area means there's probably revenue and a commercial case to be had, particularly where demand is probably suppressed by the need to change at Ely/Peterborough. Just look at the numbers joining a typical XC service at Cambridge now.

I entirely agree. Whatever the source (XC, EMT, GA, whatever), Cambridge urgently needs more than 1tph to Peterborough. If that happens to be a service that also goes to Nottingham, and perhaps even Sheffield, I fully expect a lot of people to be rather attracted to that. Currently having to change at Ely to do this - even when the connection is pretty good - puts a lot of people off.

 

[td97]

It's not just about capacity though. TPE are promising things like more table seats, more luggage space etc. I also think the mk5s will have actual power sockets, while the 185s will just have USB charging points, which might not go down well with those using laptops.

185s have proper plug sockets. Even the unrefurbished ones

 

[jamesontheroad]

Probably find that it won't be a booked connection at Nottingham and folk travelling between the two new services will end up having to fester for an hour.

Which reminds me - it is of course in Network Rail's interest to replace direct trains with connections, because it increases footfall and revenue at cafés etc on Network Rail property. Yes, you have 45 minutes to kill at Nottingham, but so why not have a coffee?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Which reminds me - it is of course in Network Rail's interest to replace direct trains with connections, because it increases footfall and revenue at cafés etc on Network Rail property. Yes, you have 45 minutes to kill at Nottingham, but so why not have a coffee?

Hmm Not sure about that personally. The extra travel time may remove more revenue than it earns.

 

[gingerheid]

Small mindedness?

They are prioritising the large number of people who want a reliable service over relatively short distance commutes, say journeys up to fifty miles (over the lower number of people who travel over a hundred and fifty miles)

Look at today's Sheffield - Manchester - Liverpool (South Parkway) service:

• 06:18 left two minutes late
• 07:32 left over four minutes late
• 08:41 left over four minutes late
• 09:40 was on time (!!!!)
• 10:40 left over a minute late
• 11:41 left over five minutes late
• 12:41 left over three minutes late
• 13:40 left over two minutes late
• 14:41 left over a minute late
• 15:40 left over six minutes late
• 16:40 left over three minutes late
• 17:40 left three minutes late
• 18:40 left over a minute late
• 19:40 left over a minute late
• 20:31 left over seven minutes late (the 20:31 terminates at Manchester because EMT run ECS back from Liverpool in the evening since they don't have a depot, so there's no services later than 19:40 from Sheffield to Liverpool - another thing that a change of TOC may change)

That may only look like a minute or two here or there, but almost every service was late - and these trains need to deal with single track bottlenecks at Dore and Hazel Grove before they get over the Stockport Viaduct and through the congested 13/14 corridor at Piccadilly, before trying to get to Oxford Road before the half hourly Northern stoppers occupy the line through Warrington - e.g. the 11:41 from Sheffield was so late today that the Oxford Road - Warrington service was let out ahead of it, further delaying longer distance passengers.

Maybe a few minutes here and there don't look so bad if you are doing a journey like Norwich to Liverpool - there's often sufficient recovery time at the final station that a service can be seen to catch up with any "lost" minutes, but the long distance nature of the service means that people doing short journeys (e.g. I know a couple of people who commute from Stockport to Sheffield) are at the mercy of disruptions far away.

Looking at these in more detail, the numbers don't support the argument you've used them for:

• 0618 - This train starts at Nottingham, so the two minutes wasn't anything to do with Norwich - Nottingham.
  0732 - Ditto - and in fact the real delays to this service took part over the section of route you describe, around Manchester and Hunts Cross
• 0841 - Ditto - and, to a lesser extent ditto.
• 0940 - The first on time train of the day was the first one that came all the way from Norwich, but it lost a couple of minutes after Sheffield
• 1040 - This train arrived in Sheffield early.
• 1141 - Although this service arrived at Nottingham early it was at Nottingham itself that this train lost time. Assume it was maybe the join that caused the delay, so this might be the first delay of the day that did result from part of the train having arrived from Norwich.
• 1241 - Majority of those three mins were lost between Nottingham and Sheffield
• 1340 - This is the first train of the day that has arrived at Nottingham more than a min late, however most of that was recovered by the padding in the timetable there, and 5 out of the 6 mins by which the train was late in Liverpool were picked up after Sheffield.
• 1440 - This train arrived in Sheffield early.
• 1540 - The delay was actually caused between Norwich and Nottingham
• 1640 - This train arrived in Sheffield early.
• 1740 - This train left Nottingham on time.
• 1840 - This train left Nottingham on time
• 1940 - This train left Nottingham on time
• 2031 - Although this train left Sheffield late, it was on time at the next station.

 

[pemma]

185s have proper plug sockets. Even the unrefurbished ones

There's no requirement for TPE to fit proper plug sockets at every pair of seats on the 185s, like there is with the mk5 sets. However, if TPE are fitting proper plug sockets at every pair of seats then it's less of an issue.

 

[Ianno87]

Which reminds me - it is of course in Network Rail's interest to replace direct trains with connections, because it increases footfall and revenue at cafés etc on Network Rail property. Yes, you have 45 minutes to kill at Nottingham, but so why not have a coffee?

A few coffees and sandwiches for the passengers crossing Nottingham are almost certainly peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Most passengers would just travel another, faster route.

 

[Chester1]

There's no requirement for TPE to fit proper plug sockets at every pair of seats on the 185s, like there is with the mk5 sets. However, if TPE are fitting proper plug sockets at every pair of seats then it's less of an issue.

The refurbished units have 1 socket and 1 usb port per pair of seats. TPE have said every unit is being refurbished to the same standard not just the ones staying for the rest of the franchise. I would order extra 802s and make use of the wires between Lime Street - South Parkway and Trafford Park - Hazel Grove rather than keep extra 185s.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The refurbished units have 1 socket and 1 usb port per pair of seats. TPE have said every unit is being refurbished to the same standard not just the ones staying for the rest of the franchise. I would order extra 802s and make use of the wires between Lime Street - South Parkway and Trafford Park - Hazel Grove rather than keep extra 185s.

It is not a great deal of wires to justify bi-modes i'd say. If they went via chat moss then maybe. But those are two quite small sections. 185s or mk5s certainly seem the logical choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes many times on TPE North, TPE South and former TPE North West routes.

Then you'd know that only the lack of power sockets is a valid complaint from your list. There are many table seats and there is plenty of luggage space including a very large overhead rack.

 

[Trainfan344]

Lowestoft - Peterborough on a through service would be good, especially since the X1 only serves Lowestoft - Norwich with a change their for Peterborough.

 

[D365]

Which reminds me - it is of course in Network Rail's interest to replace direct trains with connections, because it increases footfall and revenue at cafés etc on Network Rail property. Yes, you have 45 minutes to kill at Nottingham, but so why not have a coffee?

I was under the impression that Network Rail are trying to push through with the sale of their commercial business.

Then you'd know that only the lack of power sockets is a valid complaint from your list. There are many table seats and there is plenty of luggage space including a very large overhead rack.

Eh? Unless I'm very much mistaken the tables have always had BS1363 outlets, and the refurbished units definitely have them at every window seat.

 

[ashworth]

Even if the two halves of the journey, with a change of train at Nottingham, was organised with an easy cross platform booked connection it wouldn’t always work in reality. If one train was delayed the connection would not be held at Nottingham leaving passengers with up to one hour to wait. I’ve seen too many instances in recent years where as one train arrives and the doors open, the adjacent connecting train closes its doors in passengers faces and departs.

Also I think it will mean more expensive journeys when the journey involves more than one TOC. Who will set the fares of Advance tickets for journeys like Chesterfield to Norwich or Manchester to Peterborough? Current journeys involving EMT and TPE, for example Nottingham to Blackpool North, are very difficult to find Advance Tickets for. Will some journeys like Sheffield to Great Yarmouth loose all cheap advance fares when it becomes a journey involving 3 TOCs and 2 changes of train? I hope both EMT and TPE and other neighbouring TOCs will co-operate with providing ‘and connections’ fares for all those journeys that will become more complicated whichever route people then choose to take.

Many people do leisure journeys on cheap day tickets from Nottingham, Alfreton and Chesterfield to Manchester, so will TPE remove all such tickets like they have recently done form Sheffield?

 

[pemma]

Then you'd know that only the lack of power sockets is a valid complaint from your list. There are many table seats and there is plenty of luggage space including a very large overhead rack.

I'd disagree that there's plenty of luggage space - on plenty of occasions the 185 luggage racks are overflowing and I'm sure there's less luggage space on the 185s than the 158s that they replaced.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd disagree that there's plenty of luggage space - on plenty of occasions the 185 luggage racks are overflowing and I'm sure there's less luggage space on the 185s than the 158s that they replaced.

There is a lot *more* space because unlike on a Class 158 the overhead on a Class 185 will take a large bag happily.

You only get bags on the floor and on seats because people are too lazy to put them up, and for those who aren't capable of that other people are too lazy to assist them.

 

[pemma]

There is a lot *more* space because unlike on a Class 158 the overhead on a Class 185 will take a large bag happily.

You only get bags on the floor and on seats because people are too lazy to put them up, and for those who aren't capable of that other people are too lazy to assist them.

Yet on 158s old style suitcases (not the upright trolley style cases) fitted in the luggage racks properly, on the 185s they stick out

 

[mervyn72]

Might it work to have say 2 x 185 run Nottingham/Sheffield to Ely where they split and half go to Norwich in the existing path and the other half to Stansted Airport in the existing path of the hourly GA Cambridge to Stansted shuttle.

 

[pemma]

It is not a great deal of wires to justify bi-modes i'd say. If they went via chat moss then maybe. But those are two quite small sections. 185s or mk5s certainly seem the logical choice.

Agreed. Plus unless the bi-modes can switch sources while in motion they won't be able to use Trafford Park-Oxford Road or Stockport-Hazel Grove.

 

[pemma]

Might it work to have say 2 x 185 run Nottingham/Sheffield to Ely where they split and half go to Norwich in the existing path and the other half to Stansted Airport in the existing path of the hourly GA Cambridge to Stansted shuttle.

There's issues with heavy trains running to Norwich. 158s are fine, 185s and 222s would have to run significantly slower.

 

[mervyn72]

There's issues with heavy trains running to Norwich. 158s are fine, 185s and 222s would have to run significantly slower.

I just put 185's as an example. Could be any other suitable stock. It's the premise of the timings that I'm interested in understanding of it would be feasible

 

[TheDavibob]

Might it work to have say 2 x 185 run Nottingham/Sheffield to Ely where they split and half go to Norwich in the existing path and the other half to Stansted Airport in the existing path of the hourly GA Cambridge to Stansted shuttle.

Worth noting also that the Cam-Stansted shuttle is temporary, anyway, and will (I think) be adjoined to the Norwich-Cambridge train when the bimodes arrive.