Liverpool to Norwich services to end at December 2021 timetable change

[pemma]

Change "thought" to "were instructed that", and you'd not be wrong.

This "improvement" was brought to you by the letters D, F and T.

The ATW 158 refurbishments were funded by the Welsh Assembly so presumably were to their specification.

 

[47802]

Leeds-Norwich could work very well but would the demand be sufficiently balanced across the journey, especially with a separate Liverpool to Nottingham service.



I didn't know the Northern EMU was a franchise requirement. The TPE Scotland service will surely be running via Bolton by then but who knows with Network Rail! It is 15 minutes faster which is a considerable saving and much needed.



Thats the sort of idea that would make a EMT regional fleet of all 158s appealing because there would be huge flexibility of choice of services and in timetabling.



The rumour on social media appears to be that TPE would use Mark Vs. If Northern took over the route then 158s would be adequate but 195s better. EMT also use 156s for the service because they have insufficient 158s therefore transferring enough 158s to run the service from December 2021 would cause other services to be downgraded while the intercity services will be stretched prior to the arrival of new stock. Its a little odd that the regional express opperator does not run a service between Liverpool and Sheffield and only has 1tph between Manchester and Sheffield. I am doubtful that the government will want to make any alterations to the Northern franchise agreement to add or remove services or rolling stock. It would be opening a huge can of worms!

I suspect whoever runs this service it will involve the 185's either Northern or TPE use the 185's on the route, or TPE use the Loco Hauled Stock and use the 185's to replace the Loco Hauled stock on the TPE North route, which to me makes a lot more sense, the Loco Hauled stock having served the purpose of increasing capacity quickly it then makes more sense to only 2 types of train instead of 3 on the busy Northern Route.

 

[OrangeJuice]

I suspect whoever runs this service it will involve the 185's either Northern or TPE use the 185's on the route, or TPE use the Loco Hauled Stock and use the 185's to replace the Loco Hauled stock on the TPE North route, which to me makes a lot more sense, the Loco Hauled stock having served the purpose of increasing capacity quickly it then makes more sense to only 2 types of train instead of 3 on the busy Northern Route.

Although would TPE's loco hauled stock increase capacity? Going from 4 car 158's (assuming there aren't unit shortages) to 5 coaches, 1 first class.

Yes it will include first class and be more 'intercity', but would the standard class seats increase, which I expect most people will care about.

I could be wrong as I can't remember the numbers. I'm sure somewhere I saw that a 3 car 185 doesn't have 'that' many extra standard seats than a 185 and with it doubled there's no corridor connection.

 

[47802]

Although would TPE's loco hauled stock increase capacity? Going from 4 car 158's (assuming there aren't unit shortages) to 5 coaches, 1 first class.

Yes it will include first class and be more 'intercity', but would the standard class seats increase, which I expect most people will care about.

I could be wrong as I can't remember the numbers. I'm sure somewhere I saw that a 3 car 185 doesn't have 'that' many extra standard seats than a 185 and with it doubled there's no corridor connection.

Does it nessesarly have to increase capacity if there going capacity for an additional Fast Train per hour between Sheffield and Manchester, and also if EMT run the Norwich up to Sheffield which is an option.

 

[pemma]

Although would TPE's loco hauled stock increase capacity? Going from 4 car 158's (assuming there aren't unit shortages) to 5 coaches, 1 first class.

Yes it will include first class and be more 'intercity', but would the standard class seats increase, which I expect most people will care about.

I could be wrong as I can't remember the numbers. I'm sure somewhere I saw that a 3 car 185 doesn't have 'that' many extra standard seats than a 185 and with it doubled there's no corridor connection.

On the loco-hauled sets the DVT carriage will only have First Class seats so they'll still be 4 x 23m carriages with standard class. However, as these carriages will have a more Intercity style interior - more tables, more luggage space, more toilets, better facilities for preparing there won't be as many seats in total - 257 is the minimum number given in the franchise agreement, it might end up being slightly more.

The 185s have 164 standard class seats, so a pair of those will give you more seats. I'm not sure exactly how many seats the EMT 158s have but as the standard 158 layout is something like 138 seats, I doubt they managed to get an extra 30 seats in by refurbishing them.

 

[notlob.divad]

I suspect whoever runs this service it will involve the 185's either Northern or TPE use the 185's on the route, or TPE use the Loco Hauled Stock and use the 185's to replace the Loco Hauled stock on the TPE North route, which to me makes a lot more sense, the Loco Hauled stock having served the purpose of increasing capacity quickly it then makes more sense to only 2 types of train instead of 3 on the busy Northern Route.

Although would TPE's loco hauled stock increase capacity? Going from 4 car 158's (assuming there aren't unit shortages) to 5 coaches, 1 first class.

Yes it will include first class and be more 'intercity', but would the standard class seats increase, which I expect most people will care about.

I could be wrong as I can't remember the numbers. I'm sure somewhere I saw that a 3 car 185 doesn't have 'that' many extra standard seats than a 185 and with it doubled there's no corridor connection.

But then will Nottingham to Liverpool take all of the LHCS? Or are you proposing its use on the Cleathorpes service as well?

 

[pemma]

But then will Nottingham to Liverpool take all of the LHCS? Or are you proposing its use on the Cleathorpes service as well?

I wouldn't see why TPE would change their plan to use 185s on South TPE with doubling up west of Sheffield, except maybe to change doubling up to be west of Doncaster if they end up with some spare 185s. Someone said Liverpool-Nottingham would be 7 diagrams if the current timings remained. Liverpool to Scarborough is 6, as would be Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough if it was self contained, so presumably one at least 1/4 of Middlesbrough and Scarborough services would continue to be operated by mk5s even if the majority end up on Liverpool to Nottingham.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Does it nessesarly have to increase capacity if there going capacity for an additional Fast Train per hour between Sheffield and Manchester, and also if EMT run the Norwich up to Sheffield which is an option.

I forgot about the third hourly fast service as that will improve Sheffield to Manchester a lot

 

[pemma]

I forgot about the third hourly fast service as that will improve Sheffield to Manchester a lot

I wonder how the fourth train will fit in. Maybe the proposed 4th Hazel Grove service could extend to Sheffield, calling at just Stockport and Hazel Grove with other stations catered for by the other Hazel Grove and Buxton services?

 

[xtradj]

It wasn’t so long ago that it was Liverpool Lime St to Stansted Airport with the odd one going to Cambridge only. 158s. Can’t remember where they went via. Was this the early 00’s?

 

[Whistler40145]

If the plan to cut back the Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich service to start at Nottingham, could this be a future plan to extend it to Birmingham New Street?

 

[Johnny Lewis]

It wasn’t so long ago that it was Liverpool Lime St to Stansted Airport with the odd one going to Cambridge only. 158s. Can’t remember where they went via. Was this the early 00’s?

These services finished in 2003 as part of the Strategic Rail Authority's obsession with removing virtually ALL Liverpool's long-distance services from the timetable. Also disappearing round about the same time were the sporadic services to Scotland, Thames Valley, South Coast, South West and South Wales. Some - but by no means all - of these cuts are now being reversed. But the West Midlands service, once a key Inter-city route, remains in the hands of commuter-esque rolling stock with 3+2 seating and far too many intermediate stops (Acton Bridge, Winsford, Penkridge, Coseley) and Liverpool is now far and away the biggest English city that doesn't have a regular two trains per hour service to London.

 

[xtradj]

These services finished in 2003 as part of the Strategic Rail Authority's obsession with removing virtually ALL Liverpool's long-distance services from the timetable. Also disappearing round about the same time were the sporadic services to Scotland, Thames Valley, South Coast, South West and South Wales. Some - but by no means all - of these cuts are now being reversed. But the West Midlands service, once a key Inter-city route, remains in the hands of commuter-esque rolling stock with 3+2 seating and far too many intermediate stops (Acton Bridge, Winsford, Penkridge, Coseley) and Liverpool is now far and away the biggest English city that doesn't have a regular two trains per hour service to London.

Couldn’t agree more and one of my favourite posts this

The Birmingham twice hourly service in my opinion has too many stops.

London twice an hour I still can’t believe has not happened. Although I’d hoped this would be attainable for the dec 18 timetable with the renovation at lime st or is this not happening?

I remember various long distance services myself mainly the final ones. I think a once every two hour virgin service to reading. And I remember a solitary weekday 9.07 or something around that time service to Cardiff (ginsters 185 livery) and I also remember an Edinburgh service I think which was once a day around 5pm via St Helens and Wigan.

It does finally seem like some are coming back but I still think it misses a south west / south service. Although I believe Cardiff is muted again once the Halton curve opens

 

[IanXC]

I've thought there must be something going on here for a while. The DfT much as they'd previously consulted never accepted the outcome that people didn't want the service split, that, coupled with TPE refurbishing all the 185s when they'd not planned to keep them all has long said to me that there are loose ends.

This is all about Grayling/Dft finding something for the 185 fleet at Ardwick to do. They even acknowledge that in the consultation 65% wanted the Liverpool-Norwich to stay as it is, so I don’t think it’s about improving the service for users.
Places such as Chinley, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway are only 4 car Platforms, could the 185’s be reformed into 4 car and 2 car sets ?

Agreed. There is a fleet of modern trains needing a home. While we'd like to have the idea the DfT are not intervening and directing rolling stock this does appear to be a factor here.

Didn't the CLC route see 6 car 185s up until the last timetable change? Surely that means Liverpool South Parkway isn't a problem?

My suspicion in all of this is that DfT are trying to build up the South TPE route. 3 express trains an hour over the Piccadilly--Sheffield core, all operated by TPE with 185s. Its an area that Rail North have long wanted to improve the proposition on, and I think this could be how it's achieved.

Service pattern could look something like:
Cleethorpes-Airport
Nottingham-Liverpool
Mystery-Mystery

The 3rd service I would argue ought to be Liverpool to Manchester (in place of the TPE replacement Northern CLC service), then be the 3rd service over the Valley, and then, replace the Northern Connect to Lincoln (which avoids a further reversal move at Sheffield)

In terms of the Liverpool to Norwich split, the ITT talks about bidders having the option to continue service Sheffield from Norwich - and I think this is now the optimum outcome. In many ways it's the medium distance links across Nottingham that are where journey opportunities are lost rather than the long distance ones.

For the 'TPE' service to Nottingham, I'd advocate sending this via Derby, so adding a missing East Midlands to North West link. This might also allow for the removal of Chesterfield calls on CrossCountry services as being discussed in that Consultation's thread.

 

[pemma]

It wasn’t so long ago that it was Liverpool Lime St to Stansted Airport with the odd one going to Cambridge only. 158s. Can’t remember where they went via. Was this the early 00’s?

These services finished in 2003 as part of the Strategic Rail Authority's obsession with removing virtually ALL Liverpool's long-distance services from the timetable. Also disappearing round about the same time were the sporadic services to Scotland, Thames Valley, South Coast, South West and South Wales. Some - but by no means all - of these cuts are now being reversed. But the West Midlands service, once a key Inter-city route, remains in the hands of commuter-esque rolling stock with 3+2 seating and far too many intermediate stops (Acton Bridge, Winsford, Penkridge, Coseley) and Liverpool is now far and away the biggest English city that doesn't have a regular two trains per hour service to London.

Liverpool to Stansted Airport being cut related to the production of extra 450s starting and there ending up being nowhere to use them, so they were converted to 350/1s. SRA's original plan was:

Manchester:
Hourly Birmingham only service (350/1 operated)
Hourly South Coast via Birmingham service (Voyager operated)

Liverpool:
Hourly Birmingham only service (350/1 operated)
Hourly Stansted Airport via Birmingham service (Turbostar operated)

However, Virgin (XC) told them in no uncertain terms that they would not be taking on 350s and would not give up half their Birmingham services either, so SRA decided 2tph Liverpool to Birmingham using 350s instead.

The 350/2s (with 3+2 seating) were ordered for LM with the intention of them the 321s but the the 110mph upgrade wasn't done to the 350/2s so LM decided to use some 350/2s on Liverpool services and some 110mph 350/1s on services which previously got 350/2s.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've thought there must be something going on here for a while. The DfT much as they'd previously consulted never accepted the outcome that people didn't want the service split, that, coupled with TPE refurbishing all the 185s when they'd not planned to keep them all has long said to me that there are loose ends.

Agreed. There is a fleet of modern trains needing a home. While we'd like to have the idea the DfT are not intervening and directing rolling stock this does appear to be a factor here.

Didn't the CLC route see 6 car 185s up until the last timetable change? Surely that means Liverpool South Parkway isn't a problem?
.

The bigger problem will be Widnes, plus stations with peak hour only calls, such as Irlam. Both will require reliable selective door opening if they use 2 x 185 formations.

 

[lejog]

They've ordered Northern to combine the Crewe to Manchester and Manchester to Liverpool into one service which doubles up as a long distance route and commuter service into both Manchester and Liverpool. The performance on this route to date has been a shambles and a total failure.

Yet they want to the replace the one long distance intercity service which actually works well and serve a purpose.

It's just madness...

The DfT ordered no such thing. The Northern ITT speciified two requirements - a Chat Moss to Airport service and a Manchester to Airport to Crewe service. Arriva in theiir bid satisfied these requirrments by offering a single Chat Moss to Crewe service, conveniently as JCollins points out, freeing up an airport path for ATW.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Ianno87]

If the plan to cut back the Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich service to start at Nottingham, could this be a future plan to extend it to Birmingham New Street?

What would be the point? It'd be the long way round from Birmingham to pretty much everywhere it serves!

 

[Class 170101]

• 20:31 left over seven minutes late (the 20:31 terminates at Manchester because EMT run ECS back from Liverpool in the evening since they don't have a depot, so there's no services later than 19:40 from Sheffield to Liverpool - another thing that a change of TOC may change)

But you move the problem from one end of the route to the other. TPE may well have a depot in Liverpool but they don't have one in Nottingham and as far as I am aware they don't have one in Sheffield either. So how do you cover the 00:40 arrival at Nottingham from Liverpool and the 05:20 departure from Nottingham to Liverpool? (amongst others)

Thats whay I argue XC would be better as the operator of choice as they have a depot in Manchester for the Liverpool starters and would clearly get all the drivers in Norwich. Also its a cross country route so aligning it with the Cross Country franchise seems a better fit to me.

 

[47802]

But then will Nottingham to Liverpool take all of the LHCS? Or are you proposing its use on the Cleathorpes service as well?[/QUOTE k

But then will Nottingham to Liverpool take all of the LHCS? Or are you proposing its use on the Cleathorpes service as well?

Not me proposing it but TPE allegedly, but we shall see, I cannot see TPE using any other than 185's ether directly or indirectly, Northern well I guess it depends if they are leant on by the Dft to use 185's, possibly they might propose additional 195's if left to their own devices.

 

[Class 170101]

I entirely agree. Whatever the source (XC, EMT, GA, whatever), Cambridge urgently needs more than 1tph to Peterborough. If that happens to be a service that also goes to Nottingham, and perhaps even Sheffield, I fully expect a lot of people to be rather attracted to that. Currently having to change at Ely to do this - even when the connection is pretty good - puts a lot of people off.

Extend the existing Birmingham - Leicester service eastwards to Cambridge. XC have been looking at this for years.

 

[Class 170101]

This is all about Grayling/Dft finding something for the 185 fleet at Ardwick to do. They even acknowledge that in the consultation 65% wanted the Liverpool-Norwich to stay as it is, so I don’t think it’s about improving the service for users.
Places such as Chinley, Widnes, Liverpool South Parkway are only 4 car Platforms, could the 185’s be reformed into 4 car and 2 car sets ?

If Grayling's that bothered about the 185s (and I fail to see why he would be) then give them to EMT in the interim and use them between St Pancras and Nottingham / Sheffield on the stopping services and use the Class 222s for the 125mph services. Then build the MML timetable up in a similar way that it was in 1999 with 110mph HSTs and 100mph Class 170s. HSTs therefore don't fall foul of the 31/12/2019 PRM Deadline.

As a side note yet another cost for TPE to bear losing their route knowledge via Warrington Central which they will now have to re-learn unless TPE crews are passing on Northern services to maintain route knowledge of this route. So shortsighted.

 

[notlob.divad]

But you move the problem from one end of the route to the other. TPE may well have a depot in Liverpool but they don't have one in Nottingham and as far as I am aware they don't have one in Sheffield either. So how do you cover the 00:40 arrival at Nottingham from Liverpool and the 05:20 departure from Nottingham to Liverpool? (amongst others)

Thats whay I argue XC would be better as the operator of choice as they have a depot in Manchester for the Liverpool starters and would clearly get all the drivers in Norwich. Also its a cross country route so aligning it with the Cross Country franchise seems a better fit to me.

Presumably some drivers and guards would TUPE over from EMT to the new operator at handover, all of whom will be Nottingham based. Thus may end up creating a small satellite depot in Nottingham.
How do TPE currently deal with the late night terminators at Cleethorpes?
It might be why Northern would be a better fit as they will also be running Northern Connect Services there in the next few years.

 

[Class 170101]

Presumably some drivers and guards would TUPE over from EMT to the new operator at handover, all of whom will be Nottingham based. Thus may end up creating a small satellite depot in Nottingham.
How do TPE currently deal with the late night terminators at Cleethorpes?
It might be why Northern would be a better fit as they will also be running Northern Connect Services there in the next few years.

Would EMT not need those drivers for the extra services to Grimsby as proposed by the ITT?

TPE have a train crew depot at Cleethorpes.

As for Northern the same problem would apply. No depot at Nottingham - albeit the nearest one is in Sheffield so a bit closer than TPE.

 

[IanXC]

TPE have a traincrew depot in Sheffield.

 

[BMIFlyer]

On the loco-hauled sets the DVT carriage will only have First Class seats so they'll still be 4 x 23m carriages with standard class. However, as these carriages will have a more Intercity style interior - more tables, more luggage space, more toilets, better facilities for preparing there won't be as many seats in total - 257 is the minimum number given in the franchise agreement, it might end up being slightly more.

Incorrect.

First of all it is a DT
Secondly the DT will have standard class seating
Thirdly, 1st class is next to the locomotive and is because the kitchen uses the blank end of the carriage by the loco.
Fourth point is that the train has the following number of seats: 64 in the DT, 59 in the next coach, 69 in each of the next 2 coaches, then 30 first in the remaining coach.

 

[edwin_m]

If EMT can't justify a crew base in Liverpool for a couple of early starters/late finishers then I doubt TPE would do so in Nottingham for the same. Probably the early and late trains will run ECS to/from wherever TPE choose to base them (possibly not Sheffield as siding space is very limited) just as EMT do to/from Nottingham with their Liverpool starters and finishers, though hopefully over a shorter distance. Or they could overnight some units in Nottingham and taxi the crew or hire them from the future EM operator, as EMT do in Norwich.

However the current early starters and late finishers in Nottingham are partly run because they would otherwise be ECS from and to the depot there, so we may see some of these being cut if the depot is elsewhere. Do we know what first/last times are specified for these?

 

[devinier]

I agree, I don’t think it would be an issue to run an ecs from Ardwick Depot or Longsight to Nottingham in time to start an 0520 ish train to Lime St. Equally the last one into Nottingham could be about 2230 and work back Ecs. It’s as straightforward as the existing EMT arrangements.
They may need to have staff at Nottingham in order to actually have enough drivers and guards to operate the service on day 1, but as already mentioned they could be hired in from EMT. It depends how much notice Northern or TPE get that they are the toc to operate the service...

 

[pemma]

Fourth point is that the train has the following number of seats: 64 in the DT, 59 in the next coach, 69 in each of the next 2 coaches, then 30 first in the remaining coach.

That gives 261 standard class which is 4 more than the minimum number of 257 I said.