Livery under Great British Railways

[TT-ONR-NRN]

LNER's livery is a good example of a white-based scheme that doesn't look cheap.

You must be joking! It's the most hapdash job I've ever seen. You can tell they rushed out a quick alternative to Flowing Silk when Virgin were stripped of the ECF.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well sort of. I think it's a bit more complicated! I don't think TPE was an initial TOC at privatisation?
But some of TPE services don't go anywhere near the pennines and so this branding isn't so effective in a unified railway setting.

"Transpennine" was a BR brand name for the services run by class 124 DMUs, which ran from 1960 until about 1984 (initially Liverpool-Hull).
I don't think the branding was ever applied to the trains - just in the publicity, timetable and PIS.
The wrap-around windows were their trademark.
But at privatisation the TOCs were NWT and Northern Spirit (formerly RRNW and RRNE).
The SRA invented TPE as an inter-city brand formed from the limited-stop services of these two TOC, the remains of which mostly became Northern.

 

[Whistler40145]

How about the livery being the Union Jack?

 

[Mr. SW]

All this talk of liveries has sent me back to some of my notes and diagrams.
Here is a graphic for "East Coast" retrieved from my archive. It was doodle done when I had some spare time. And bored. It's so old! Slam doors!

Livery is greyish cream ground (linen?) with midnight blue window ribbon. Underframe dark grey.
Upper image has a charcoal grey roof and the lower blue.
Alternative logotypes in blue.
Doors blue but alternative door colour is deep crimson.
I have more of these...

 

[David M]

All this talk of liveries has sent me back to some of my notes and diagrams.
Here is a graphic for "East Coast" retrieved from my archive. It was doodle done when I had some spare time. And bored. It's so old! Slam doors!
View attachment 162298
Livery is greyish cream ground (linen?) with midnight blue window ribbon. Underframe dark grey.
Upper image has a charcoal grey roof and the lower blue.
Alternative logotypes in blue.
Doors blue but alternative door colour is deep crimson.
I have more of these...

Prefer the top one but both look really smart.

 

[Royston Vasey]

"Transpennine" was a BR brand name for the services run by class 124 DMUs, which ran from 1960 until about 1984 (initially Liverpool-Hull).
I don't think the branding was ever applied to the trains - just in the publicity, timetable and PIS.
The wrap-around windows were their trademark.
But at privatisation the TOCs were NWT and Northern Spirit (formerly RRNW and RRNE).
The SRA invented TPE as an inter-city brand formed from the limited-stop services of these two TOC, the remains of which mostly became Northern.

Certainly was! Image of Class 124 in Sheffield in 1982, with Trans-Pennine bodyside branding (C) Rob Newman via https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/vehicledetails/1002858/class_124_trans_pennine

 

[Bletchleyite]

But at privatisation the TOCs were NWT and Northern Spirit (formerly RRNW and RRNE).
The SRA invented TPE as an inter-city brand formed from the limited-stop services of these two TOC, the remains of which mostly became Northern.

Northern Spirit (terrible name) used the brand TransPennine Express for those same services, with a rather classy burgundy and gold livery. The brand has been in continuous use (with or without the Express moniker) since way back, as per the photos above.

 

[Energy]

Any livery will not be going back to the days of BR. The government doesn't want connotations to the previous national rail operator given its poor view by many members of the public.

The problem with one identity is people view it as one company. FirstGroup found that people who had a poor experience on First Transpennine Express also associated First Great Western with the same poor experience despite the companies having little in common.

I think GWR, Chiltern, Scotrail etc. will remain with part of GBR possibly appearing beneath. Finding a wording which makes it clear that these operators are government owned but are independent may be difficult.

I think GBRs main role from a customer facing view is integrated ticketing e.g I might have a single ticket with GBR at the top which combines a bus, intercity WCML and Manchester Metrolink.

 

[eldomtom2]

Finding a wording which makes it clear that these operators are government owned but are independent may be difficult.

But they're not going to be independent. They're going to merged into GBR.

 

[Sun Chariot]

How about a visually different image - one not harking back to BR, British Railways, Big Four or Pre-Grouping; and it's not related to any flag. One which, instead, celebrates the "Bling Yoof" and oft seen on tacky vehicles.

Ladies and gentlemen: vinyl wrapped metallic shocking-pink.

 

[urbophile]

How about the livery being the Union Jack?

Aaaargh!!!!

 

[gc4946]

All this talk of liveries has sent me back to some of my notes and diagrams.
Here is a graphic for "East Coast" retrieved from my archive. It was doodle done when I had some spare time. And bored. It's so old! Slam doors!
View attachment 162298
Livery is greyish cream ground (linen?) with midnight blue window ribbon. Underframe dark grey.
Upper image has a charcoal grey roof and the lower blue.
Alternative logotypes in blue.
Doors blue but alternative door colour is deep crimson.
I have more of these...

In my preferred scheme:
I'd keep the roof grey and dark blue window bands finishing before doors.
However, white replaces cream, all doors which offer passenger access red.
Bogies, underframe and ends black.
First class has "1" on doors and on dark blue band in Rail Alphabet 2 white, with yellow cantrail stripe above.
"InterCity" and carriage numbering in Rail Alphabet 2 black

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with one identity is people view it as one company. FirstGroup found that people who had a poor experience on First Transpennine Express also associated First Great Western with the same poor experience despite the companies having little in common.

FGW was entirely capable of delivering its own poor experiences, particularly on Thames Valley commuter services, and did so daily. So I think Mr Hopwood (who was likely trying to defend his TOC) has maybe missed the point with that.

It's easy to forget just how grim things were between Reading/Oxford and Paddington prior to electrification and the Liz.

 

[RailWonderer]

FGW was entirely capable of delivering its own poor experiences, particularly on Thames Valley commuter services, and did so daily. So I think Mr Hopwood (who was likely trying to defend his TOC) has maybe missed the point with that.

It's easy to forget just how grim things were between Reading/Oxford and Paddington prior to electrification and the Liz.

Delays, cancellations, short Turbos, skip stopping, overcrowding, I remember too well. I commuted on it during the transition to 387s and IETs.

Still I think people don't care about branding, they'll use the railway if they need to or if it's more convenient than driving, or in some cases, cheaper. GBR won't look into the past for branding I think but will probably keep it neutral and bland. They won't employ a proper design house, I think 'to save the taxpayer money' meaning it will look very poundland.

 

[Energy]

But they're not going to be independent. They're going to merged into GBR.

It'll still have its regions that run day-to-day operations by themselves.

FGW was entirely capable of delivering its own poor experiences, particularly on Thames Valley commuter services, and did so daily. So I think Mr Hopwood (who was likely trying to defend his TOC) has maybe missed the point with that.

It's easy to forget just how grim things were between Reading/Oxford and Paddington prior to electrification and the Liz.

Yes FGW was pretty poor. FGW and FTPE were just examples.

 

[43096]

FGW was entirely capable of delivering its own poor experiences, particularly on Thames Valley commuter services, and did so daily. So I think Mr Hopwood (who was likely trying to defend his TOC) has maybe missed the point with that.

It's easy to forget just how grim things were between Reading/Oxford and Paddington prior to electrification and the Liz.

The whole point of the GWR re-brand was to get away from the toxic FirstGroup/FGW brand. Of course, anyone even remotely clued up would know it was the same company, same management and same naff service just with a lashing of heritage green applied on top.

 

[JLH4AC]

Any livery will not be going back to the days of BR. The government doesn't want connotations to the previous national rail operator given its poor view by many members of the public.

Given how well received the LNER and SWR Retro liveries were by the public I doubt most of the public would have problems with BR style liveries. Negative views of British Rail were related to the problems that are still plaguing the railways so if the government wanted to avoid those connotations they would have to avoid liveries that look like those used by the private operators which given how diffident liveries they went through that will be hard to do.

The problem with one identity is people view it as one company. FirstGroup found that people who had a poor experience on First Transpennine Express also associated First Great Western with the same poor experience despite the companies having little in common.

That is not a problem, the government wants GBR to be seen as a single company.

I think GWR, Chiltern, Scotrail etc. will remain with part of GBR possibly appearing beneath. Finding a wording which makes it clear that these operators are government owned but are independent may be difficult.

I think GBRs main role from a customer facing view is integrated ticketing e.g I might have a single ticket with GBR at the top which combines a bus, intercity WCML and Manchester Metrolink.

Regional branding likely will and should remain but not to maintain a false sense of operational independence, GBR is going to be an interconnected system. There may only be a single operator (GBR or one owned by GBR.) that all non-devolved franchises are awarded to.

 

[Energy]

Given how well received the LNER and SWR Retro liveries were by the public I doubt most of the public would have problems with BR style liveries.

Possibly, though they have been one-off special liveries. I wonder if the public would react differently to one-off nostalgia liveries compared to the main livery being reminiscent of BR.

Regional branding likely will and should remain but not to maintain a false sense of operational independence, GBR is going to be an interconnected system.

Agreed, it'll be interesting what they choose branding-wise. The chances of the GWR brand being chucked away are very low but I think we will loose some of the smaller seperate brands, e.g Chiltern and c2c.

 

[JLH4AC]

Possibly, though they have been one-off special liveries. I wonder if the public would react differently to one-off nostalgia liveries compared to the main livery being reminiscent of BR.

It is a bit of a push to call LNER liveries one-off special liveries ever since their full rebrand all of their liveries have been inspired by the InterCity Executive livery.

Agreed, it'll be interesting what they choose branding-wise. The chances of the GWR brand being chucked away are very low but I think we will loose some of the smaller seperate brands, e.g Chiltern and c2c.

I don't think it is likely that GWR or LNER brands will survive as suggest too much independence, it is the names of major franchises that are likely to survive which ones will depend on how they are reorganised. I do think that Greater Wsetren, CrossCountry and InterCity East Coast are the most likely English franchises to survive, ScotRail is definitely going to survive even if it is reorganised and goes through a branding overhaul.

 

[Transilien]

I could imagine all inter city franchises just becoming ’inter-city’ because these services cross the country and therefore belong to no region.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But they're not going to be independent. They're going to merged into GBR.

I could imagine all inter city franchises just becoming ’inter-city’ because these services cross the country and therefore belong to no region.

I don't think we know how GBR will be structured, DfT has gone to great lengths not to tell us.
There's no sign yet that the DfT-owned TOCs (LNER, Northern, TPE and Southeastern) are "merged" in any way, even if they all report to one person in the DfT.
Intercity is one way of carving up the elephant - there are plenty of others.
Network Rail is also going to be part of the structure.

 

[Meerkat]

That is not a problem, the government wants GBR to be seen as a single company.

It is a problem if the swish intercity service you are trying to sell is the same brand as the one that makes the potential customer late for work and/or they hear is plagued by constant delays and chaos.
And think how Toyota etc have luxury brands to disassociate the premium product from the mass market parent brand.
If you have one brand every service’s reputation will be damaged when GBR is inevitably constantly in the news for a problem somewhere.

 

[eldomtom2]

It is a problem if the swish intercity service you are trying to sell is the same brand as the one that makes the potential customer late for work and/or they hear is plagued by constant delays and chaos.

But generally this division of branding isn't something you see with national railway companies. Even something like Ouigo doesn't attempt to hide the fact that it's part of SNCF.

 

[Mr. SW]

Found something better in my archive.

(This was an attempt to improve the rather dark and dull GWR colour scheme.
The present green is slightly too dark and too blue and has been accented with silver grey which gives a rather cold overall impression with only the yellow noses giving any relief.)

My scheme:
Body chrome green (lighter and less blue than the present colour) - similar to or same as BR locomotive green.
Black window ribbon. Indian red doors. Flash and waist band orange. Charcoal grey roof. Underframe etc dark grey.

However, it shows signs of of a possible general livery type.
The black window ribbon and grey roof are retained in all cases. The body, flash and waistband colours are varied in colour according to sector as is the logotype.
The waistband could also be omitted.

 

[JLH4AC]

It is a problem if the swish intercity service you are trying to sell is the same brand as the one that makes the potential customer late for work and/or they hear is plagued by constant delays and chaos.
And think how Toyota etc have luxury brands to disassociate the premium product from the mass market parent brand.
If you have one brand every service’s reputation will be damaged when GBR is inevitably constantly in the news for a problem somewhere.

Labour PR about improving the railway via defragmentation, integration and reducing inefficiency would undermine any attempt to make people think that the brands are not interconnected, also Labour has committed to reducing duplication of management, marketing and ticketing. The bulk of delays and disruptions that are not caused by a lack of drivers (Which can have broad or localised effects depending on how localised the staff storage is on a given day.) are caused by infrastructure issues or trespass both of which will affect all services in a given area.

Good PR management and actually fixing chronic issues with the railway will go much further to improve the railway's reputation than maintaining several pointless subsidiaries.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While I agree using the jack as a livery might look tacky, I think some of you are too harsh about using the colours. It does make sense to represent a nationalised railway with the colours of the national flag.

Some of you are also really harsh on white liveries. I think, if kept clean, they look really smart in a simplistic yet effective way. All over colours can easily look gaudy. I drew this quick carriage as an example of what might look smart using the flag’s colours.



It’s simple but I don’t think it looks too bad. SBB, who you all love to worship, aren’t too far off.

 

[sprinterguy]

It is a bit of a push to call LNER liveries one-off special liveries ever since their full rebrand all of their liveries have been inspired by the InterCity Executive livery.

Barring one retro-liveried HST power car by Crosscountry (43184), I tend to think that the earlier Intercity Executive scheme gets overlooked: LNER and others have generally, and understandably, replicated the later, less dated, Intercity Swallow livery.

 

[JLH4AC]

Barring one retro-liveried HST power car by Crosscountry (43184), I tend to think that the earlier Intercity Executive scheme gets overlooked: LNER and others have generally, and understandably, replicated the later, less dated, Intercity Swallow livery.

The retro LNER livery for class 91 was based on the Swallow livery the class worn in BR service so even though it left out the logotype the livery (And what notably set it apart from the executive livery on most classes it was applied to.) is named for you are properly correct that it is best to say that it is inspired by the Swallow livery. The Amuza livery on the other hand just took design cues from the Executive/Swallow livery, it was really based on seferic livery.

While I agree using the jack as a livery might look tacky, I think some of you are too harsh about using the colours. It does make sense to represent a nationalised railway with the colours of the national flag.

Some of you are also really harsh on white liveries. I think, if kept clean, they look really smart in a simplistic yet effective way. All over colours can easily look gaudy. I drew this quick carriage as an example of what might look smart using the flag’s colours.

Yeah, here are too harsh about using British national colours, there is no reason why such a livery can't be made to look nice, and as you said it makes sense to represent a nationalised railway with the colours of the national flag. Mostly white liveries are harder to keep looking clean as dirt shows up more on white.

View attachment 162380

That just looks like the TfW Rail livery with blue lines and GBR logotype replacing the TfW branding.

 

[gc4946]

While I agree using the jack as a livery might look tacky, I think some of you are too harsh about using the colours. It does make sense to represent a nationalised railway with the colours of the national flag.

Some of you are also really harsh on white liveries. I think, if kept clean, they look really smart in a simplistic yet effective way. All over colours can easily look gaudy. I drew this quick carriage as an example of what might look smart using the flag’s colours.

View attachment 162380

It’s simple but I don’t think it looks too bad. SBB, who you all love to worship, aren’t too far off.

I agree that the base livery should be white. However, a red roof looks better. I'm pleased red doors appear in this render.
Dark blue could have been substituted for the window band, however, there's stock fitted with ribbon glazing on the network, so a black band is acceptable.
A dark blue line's OK for me, I'd restrict the use of "Great British Railways" logo (and red double arrows) to locos and the end carriages of units.
Instead for train category consistency, only "InterCity" or "Regional" in RA2 would be used. A smaller RA2 font could appear below, e.g. West Coast, East Coast, Great Western, North Western
The number "1" in RA2 denoting 1st class should be added on doors and repeated on the black window band. Yellow cantrail stripes also added on white areas for extra identification.

 

[antharro]

I will preface this post by saying that I know I am not a design specialist - I'm just spitballing here. Take what you will from this post!

As much as I would love to see the "old" NSE and InterCity liveries return, I appreciate that BR would have updated them at least once since those days, and an updated version would be nice. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the past and using some of its best design cues to inspire modern designs.

I am very much in favour of standardising as much as possible. But I do think there should be variations. I'm in favour of the "three variations" that SWT had - one recognisable livery but variations. However, I do think there should be variations for the nations. Therefore, from largest scope to smallest:

- CrossCountry. This needs to have the flagship livery - the one that represents GBR the best. I would love to see a modern variation of InterCity Swallow; like LNER have done.
- Long distance services (SWR white). Similar to flagship but different enough to differentiate it.
- Medium distance services (SWR blue). Perhaps same design as long distance but in different colours.
- Short distance / metro services (SWR red). As above; same design but different colours.

The livery should be designed in such a way that:

- National/city variations can be catered for.
- Nameplates can be mounted and not look out of place.
- Spaces can be made for regionalised text.

So for example, you could have a long distance train, with a "City of Oxford" nameplate, a silhouette of the Oxford skyline, and the Oxford coat of arms on the side of the leading carriage. None of this would be in big bold colours - it's not a would detract from the livery; it would rather enhance it. To give some idea of what I'm thinking of, consider Virgin Trains' NRM 40 year livery, or their X-Men liveries. Still clearly Virgin Trains but with a clear extra message. Also consider the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight livery that went on a 91.

In Wales, you could could have the Welsh flag placed on the leading end of the carriage, similar to how depot badges are sometimes placed, but larger. Or, have a much larger but opaque flag that takes up much more of the carriage. You wouldn't have to have this on EVERY train in Wales, just a handful, or maybe the first of each class of train.

Another approach could be very minimalistic - consider SWT's first livery on the 442s, where they put the unit number above the orange stripe. (There's a picture here). Use that space for the personalisation:

"Great British Railways" at the leading end of the carriage (assuming it's an end carriage) then "Visit Oxford", then a smaller vinyl silhouette of the skyline. Small, doesn't detract from the main livery but it's a nice little hint of customisation.

If I was a graphic artist, I would do a couple of mock-ups... whatever happened to that website that had a load of photoshopped liveries?