Ivo
Established Member
The sooner FCC are out the better. Then maybe the new franchisee can take the hard line with people like him and bring in fresh, decent folk as RPIs.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
LIVID! Just got a penalty fare!
- Thread starter jon0844
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I can always accept that people have bad days. Doesn't make it right, but you can give someone a second chance. With the likes of Twitter, YouTube and so on - it's easy to show a bad incident and imply that it is normal.
In the case of this RPI, there are now multiple instances that prove I wasn't misjudging him or blowing things out of proportion. I now know someone else that has made complaints, and must conclude (rightly or wrongly) that this means there MUST be many more.
Given that he's still doing what he does, I must also conclude the the TOC concerned is willing to turn a blind eye, on the basis that I bet he outperforms other RPIs by some considerable margin. Sadly, from a business point of view, this person is well and truly earning his keep.
I don't think losing the franchise would make any difference. The new franchise company comes in and all the staff move over under TUPE regulations. His job is safe regardless. It's naive to think that anything would change simply because the penalty fares he'd then issue would have a different name on it.
In the case of this RPI, there are now multiple instances that prove I wasn't misjudging him or blowing things out of proportion. I now know someone else that has made complaints, and must conclude (rightly or wrongly) that this means there MUST be many more.
Given that he's still doing what he does, I must also conclude the the TOC concerned is willing to turn a blind eye, on the basis that I bet he outperforms other RPIs by some considerable margin. Sadly, from a business point of view, this person is well and truly earning his keep.
I don't think losing the franchise would make any difference. The new franchise company comes in and all the staff move over under TUPE regulations. His job is safe regardless. It's naive to think that anything would change simply because the penalty fares he'd then issue would have a different name on it.
True. It doesn't sound like he's having a bad day - unless every day is a bad day!
I would still contact FCC with a further complaint, possibly higher up the food chain if you haven't doen so already. I would ask them whether they think rudeness and aggression is appropriate for the role, and what measures they have in place to ensure that all staff are complying with company policies, such as the wearing of name badges, at all times.
Of course, the nature of the job means that RPI's will get more complaints than other members of staff. Also, employees should be afforded the ability to put their side of events. Ultimately, though, there will be a point at which even the worst employer will have to take action.
I would still contact FCC with a further complaint, possibly higher up the food chain if you haven't doen so already. I would ask them whether they think rudeness and aggression is appropriate for the role, and what measures they have in place to ensure that all staff are complying with company policies, such as the wearing of name badges, at all times.
Of course, the nature of the job means that RPI's will get more complaints than other members of staff. Also, employees should be afforded the ability to put their side of events. Ultimately, though, there will be a point at which even the worst employer will have to take action.
I think I've done a fairly good job of explaining the chain of events clearly and honestly and doubt he'd have much cause for complaint, except for playing down everything and making out that he was cool, calm and professional. I can't prove that I'm not lying, any more than he could prove that I am. Mind you, there were witnesses and there's even CCTV (but no sound)!
I think he enjoys it. His wry smile and grin, and the 'hey, I'll happily apologise' that makes him sound so mighty (and might just make some people that perhaps they ARE wrong) is a personality trait that you'll see in plenty of people. If he wasn't an RPI, he'd be in some other position of 'authority'. I could imagine him being the ideal candidate for working security in a high street retail store, where he might just get to manhandle some people in the process of his job.
Or perhaps door security? Although whether he could walk the walk as well as talk the talk if he's willing to let things escalate (and, lucky for him, he wasn't dealing with someone who was ever going to jump up out of his seat and do any more than use words) would be interesting to see. Talk like that to some people and I'd expect a nasty situation to come from it. That's definitely NOT part of the training.
I complained before and FCC didn't do anything. They apologised to me on the last 'Meet the directors' forum but never followed it up by asking for more information. That's why I think they're happy with the results they get from him.
I think he enjoys it. His wry smile and grin, and the 'hey, I'll happily apologise' that makes him sound so mighty (and might just make some people that perhaps they ARE wrong) is a personality trait that you'll see in plenty of people. If he wasn't an RPI, he'd be in some other position of 'authority'. I could imagine him being the ideal candidate for working security in a high street retail store, where he might just get to manhandle some people in the process of his job.
Or perhaps door security? Although whether he could walk the walk as well as talk the talk if he's willing to let things escalate (and, lucky for him, he wasn't dealing with someone who was ever going to jump up out of his seat and do any more than use words) would be interesting to see. Talk like that to some people and I'd expect a nasty situation to come from it. That's definitely NOT part of the training.
I complained before and FCC didn't do anything. They apologised to me on the last 'Meet the directors' forum but never followed it up by asking for more information. That's why I think they're happy with the results they get from him.
I was just speaking about what happens generally, not in relation to this individual or incident.
He may well paint a very different picture when he speaks to his managers. In the absence of any other evidence, I should imagine they will be forced to take his story at face value until the volume of complaints clearly indicates he is stepping over the mine on a regular basis.
Also, he may be close to receiving a finalw arning, and just be too obstinate or stupid to change his ways. Companies don;t usually provide detials of what disciplinary action they have taken against an individual these days.
I still think it;s worth bringing the latest incident to their attention!
He may well paint a very different picture when he speaks to his managers. In the absence of any other evidence, I should imagine they will be forced to take his story at face value until the volume of complaints clearly indicates he is stepping over the mine on a regular basis.
Also, he may be close to receiving a finalw arning, and just be too obstinate or stupid to change his ways. Companies don;t usually provide detials of what disciplinary action they have taken against an individual these days.
I still think it;s worth bringing the latest incident to their attention!
Old Timer
Established Member
222007
Member
Nothing wrong with getting a photo when you're being gripped by someone who doesn't know his job:
http://nedchester.fotopic.net/p64211457.html
As this RPI's collegue i'll gladly point out his mugshot to him. Its one thing to to feel aggrieved and quite rightly as the wording says he was wrong in this case but by doing this what does it say about you? We all make mistakes whether thats at work or home - how would you feel if you was this chap? Im sure you will say it wouldnt bother you but can you hand on heart say right now that you have NEVER made a mistake? Because anyone that says they havent has lied
FWIW, he was the guy complaining about not having been paid for overtime and slagging FCC at Hatfield (before he spotted me) so I am sure he's had some sort of problem with management for whatever reason.
Maybe I will fire off an email to FCC later. I'll clearly have to cut down my story though, given nobody would probably bother to read all of that and just disregard it as a rant from some idiot customer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm sure he already knows what he looks like.
Last edited:
Sorry, but you might want to read the full story behind this. The man publically embarassed nedchester and refused to check his facts or accept that he was incorrect. When a member of the public can be publically threatened with prosecution, subject to a penalty of £20 or more and embarassed for making a mistake (or in the case of nedchester, doing nothing wrong at all), why should members of staff be immune from the same level of scrutiny handed out by these individuals.
If I had £20 for every time a member of retail staff on a Toc had made a mistake...
It's not making mistakes that is the problem, it's when staff are obstinate, refuse to check their information is correct or are aggressive/downright rude that offends people. As in the FCC RPI on this thread!
As 222007 says, anyone can make a mistake, if they double check and apologise no harm is done. Whne they refuse, insist they are right (or make up ruels as Yorkie often says) then customers are rightly annoyed, and feel that the individual in question deserves to be publicly shamed, as these people do to their customers.
At the same time, as customers we must not be rude or aggressive either! And we should also double check our facts!
As 222007 says, anyone can make a mistake, if they double check and apologise no harm is done. Whne they refuse, insist they are right (or make up ruels as Yorkie often says) then customers are rightly annoyed, and feel that the individual in question deserves to be publicly shamed, as these people do to their customers.
At the same time, as customers we must not be rude or aggressive either! And we should also double check our facts!
I met my 'friendly' RPI today and got more hassle. This is going to happen from now on, until I stop travelling on FCC or he moves/leaves.
Since my last post in this thread, I already had another run-in with him when he 'caught' me and others in first class on a declassified train. After stating it was declassified, I was told it wasn't and he wanted to give us all a PF. He stated we were on a different service when he finally bothered to look in his timetable, finding another train that did have first class and saying we were on that. Other passengers moaned at him, and I discovered that they'd made complaints about him before - so it isn't just me.
After a short argument on the train because he did his usual line of 'take the PF and appeal', which ended up with him really studying my ticket carefully and wanting to see my Oyster card, I left him to it at Finsbury Park. I've since been told that after I got off, he actually called BTP to meet some passengers at King's Cross who were caught in first class who did not have their YP railcards - but he'd have missed them if he'd started by giving me a PF!
Since then, I've had to get a replacement ticket as the magstrip stopped working on my paper ticket. I figured this would trigger suspicion, although not in the way that happened today. Today, I saw him when boarding a semi-fast train to King's Cross at Hatfield.
He then looked at my ticket closely once again (no cursory glance as with other passengers) and asked to see my Oyster again. This time he got his wand out and scanned it, and then said I was unable to travel with this combination of ticket.
In accordance with the NCoC, I do indeed need to travel on a train that stops at the boundary - Hadley Wood - by having a Hatfield to Hadley Wood ticket, and then a Z1-6 Oyster for the rest. I have Oyster because it means I don't use a paper ticket around town, but both Wagn and First Capital Connect have issued letters and confirmations to passengers that they accept this combination. It has even been mentioned on their online forum before, so I'll have to go and have a search later. Sadly, my printed letter got lost ages ago so it was my word against his.
But, now, I was told that FCC is clamping down on this under new orders. Too many people like us are costing them money. And so, on that basis, he could give me another penalty fare (which I was free to appeal). He does like to keep saying that. I think he thinks the policy is give a PF, ask questions later.
I laughed at loud, and lost it a bit, asking how long he was going to keep harassing me - and asked him WHY they were changing their rules. I now had the attention of the whole section of the train, no doubt all thinking that I'm some cocky troublemaker that has been caught out - I am sure I'd think that too, unless I'd had dealings with him. To be honest, all I could think about was the recent wheelchair incident on Northern Rail and putting myself in that position. No, I didn't start filming!
What's weird is that I said I was not going to accept a penalty fare, and he then went off on one saying he never said he was GOING to issue me one. He just said that he could, as if he was doing me a favour. That makes me wonder if RPIs really are under orders to issue penalties to people who travel on split tickets, as I am sure many hundreds OR thousands do every day given FCC has stated it is allowed.
And if FCC has changed its mind, then that's a lot of people who will now have to travel on the slow trains every day to work or buy a new season ticket.
What I also forgot was that when I'd got on at Hatfield, I was able to still alight at Potters Bar and get a slow train. If he had given me the PF and I'd got off at the next stop, he really would looked been stupid.
I've been contacted by FCC over this, finally. They've got the badge number and his name and were supposed to have talked to him. I get the impression that they haven't. There was no mention about me causing him any grief or trying to get him in trouble - and he had already been nasty to me since before FCC contacted me. I am starting to think that FCC thinks he's a God. I mean, if he can now issue penalty fares to everyone with a Gold Card then he's going to make them a fortune.
I now need to find out from FCC if this is actually now their new policy, which is going to prevent me taking nearly every train from King's Cross home from now on.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I really don't need this. I am really now going to feel uncomfortable travelling on FCC in case I meet him. But, I can't exactly leave my job. I guess I'm going to have to use the slow trains to Old Street from now on, until I get clarification, but he's still going to have me taking all my tickets out and have him questioning me on just about everything. What's crazy is that he will miss genuine PF opportunities by doing so.
Since my last post in this thread, I already had another run-in with him when he 'caught' me and others in first class on a declassified train. After stating it was declassified, I was told it wasn't and he wanted to give us all a PF. He stated we were on a different service when he finally bothered to look in his timetable, finding another train that did have first class and saying we were on that. Other passengers moaned at him, and I discovered that they'd made complaints about him before - so it isn't just me.
After a short argument on the train because he did his usual line of 'take the PF and appeal', which ended up with him really studying my ticket carefully and wanting to see my Oyster card, I left him to it at Finsbury Park. I've since been told that after I got off, he actually called BTP to meet some passengers at King's Cross who were caught in first class who did not have their YP railcards - but he'd have missed them if he'd started by giving me a PF!
Since then, I've had to get a replacement ticket as the magstrip stopped working on my paper ticket. I figured this would trigger suspicion, although not in the way that happened today. Today, I saw him when boarding a semi-fast train to King's Cross at Hatfield.
He then looked at my ticket closely once again (no cursory glance as with other passengers) and asked to see my Oyster again. This time he got his wand out and scanned it, and then said I was unable to travel with this combination of ticket.
In accordance with the NCoC, I do indeed need to travel on a train that stops at the boundary - Hadley Wood - by having a Hatfield to Hadley Wood ticket, and then a Z1-6 Oyster for the rest. I have Oyster because it means I don't use a paper ticket around town, but both Wagn and First Capital Connect have issued letters and confirmations to passengers that they accept this combination. It has even been mentioned on their online forum before, so I'll have to go and have a search later. Sadly, my printed letter got lost ages ago so it was my word against his.
But, now, I was told that FCC is clamping down on this under new orders. Too many people like us are costing them money. And so, on that basis, he could give me another penalty fare (which I was free to appeal). He does like to keep saying that. I think he thinks the policy is give a PF, ask questions later.
I laughed at loud, and lost it a bit, asking how long he was going to keep harassing me - and asked him WHY they were changing their rules. I now had the attention of the whole section of the train, no doubt all thinking that I'm some cocky troublemaker that has been caught out - I am sure I'd think that too, unless I'd had dealings with him. To be honest, all I could think about was the recent wheelchair incident on Northern Rail and putting myself in that position. No, I didn't start filming!
What's weird is that I said I was not going to accept a penalty fare, and he then went off on one saying he never said he was GOING to issue me one. He just said that he could, as if he was doing me a favour. That makes me wonder if RPIs really are under orders to issue penalties to people who travel on split tickets, as I am sure many hundreds OR thousands do every day given FCC has stated it is allowed.
And if FCC has changed its mind, then that's a lot of people who will now have to travel on the slow trains every day to work or buy a new season ticket.
What I also forgot was that when I'd got on at Hatfield, I was able to still alight at Potters Bar and get a slow train. If he had given me the PF and I'd got off at the next stop, he really would looked been stupid.
I've been contacted by FCC over this, finally. They've got the badge number and his name and were supposed to have talked to him. I get the impression that they haven't. There was no mention about me causing him any grief or trying to get him in trouble - and he had already been nasty to me since before FCC contacted me. I am starting to think that FCC thinks he's a God. I mean, if he can now issue penalty fares to everyone with a Gold Card then he's going to make them a fortune.
I now need to find out from FCC if this is actually now their new policy, which is going to prevent me taking nearly every train from King's Cross home from now on.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I really don't need this. I am really now going to feel uncomfortable travelling on FCC in case I meet him. But, I can't exactly leave my job. I guess I'm going to have to use the slow trains to Old Street from now on, until I get clarification, but he's still going to have me taking all my tickets out and have him questioning me on just about everything. What's crazy is that he will miss genuine PF opportunities by doing so.
Last edited:
This is not the same ticket combination that you use (so the conditions set by FCC may vary & this instance doesn't involve season tickets), but the Hertfordshire concessionary fares scheme was changed last year. Anyone showing a senior bus pass can get 50% discount on off-peak tickets in Hertfordshire & Bedfordshire.
Previously they could purchase a discounted ticket to Hadley wood & then combine with a travelcard etc & it was valid on fast trains into London.
Since April 2009 the terms were changed so that the train must stop at Hadley Wood for such ticket combinations to be valid.
Now they are told to purchase a discounted ticket to Potters Bar & a travelcard from Potters Bar & this is acceptable for travel on fast trains.
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=461
I don't know if it it the same person but one FCC RPI got on a Moorgate-WGC service at Hatfield recently & told me that my season ticket wasn't valid on that train - I told him to look at a map as I was travelling between the stations specified on the ticket (one of which is Potters Bar). He said he would come back - by which time we had arrived at WGC & I had changed on to a Cambridge train.
Previously they could purchase a discounted ticket to Hadley wood & then combine with a travelcard etc & it was valid on fast trains into London.
Since April 2009 the terms were changed so that the train must stop at Hadley Wood for such ticket combinations to be valid.
Now they are told to purchase a discounted ticket to Potters Bar & a travelcard from Potters Bar & this is acceptable for travel on fast trains.
http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=461
I don't know if it it the same person but one FCC RPI got on a Moorgate-WGC service at Hatfield recently & told me that my season ticket wasn't valid on that train - I told him to look at a map as I was travelling between the stations specified on the ticket (one of which is Potters Bar). He said he would come back - by which time we had arrived at WGC & I had changed on to a Cambridge train.
hairyhandedfool
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 8,837
The rules, unfortunately, are in black an white in the NCoC, if company policy is to be lenient on this issue, it doesn't mean it is not in the contract, just that they don't hold you to it.
The CofC says that Tocs can provide more rights than in the document which FCC have elected to do so. If at the start of the agreement FCC have said it is permitted, I cannot see how they can go back on that.
Solent&Wessex
Established Member
- Joined
- 9 Jul 2009
- Messages
- 2,685
TPE used to allow Season ticket holders to upgrade to First Class on board as if there were no ticket office - ie the difference between the SDS and FDS. This is a relaxation of NCOC which says if you have a season ticket, and travel in first class without permission, and there was a ticket office where you started your journey, then you can only buy a brand new First Class ticket on board. They have recently clamped down on this and posters have now been put up in First Class which say Season ticket holders cannot upgrade on board and will need to purchase a new ticket.
Mr Morris, perhaps your statements are slightly biased, but I'm getting the idea here that this RPI has a personal vendetta against you. And if that's the case, it's simply unacceptable. I'm not going into the issues with fares and penalty fares (I don't know anything about them in this area), but if I were in this position, I'd be showing up in person at the head office to complain in person.
I am afraid I would not tolerate the behaviour being exhibited.
I would be minded to contact FCC again and refer them to the case of British Gas vs Ferguson when a court ruled that a company can be guilty of harrassment due to the actions of its employees.
The Protection from Harassment Act, which created a civil and a criminal offence of harassment, states:
"A person must not pursue a course of conduct -
(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other."
British Gas attempted to argue that as a company, rather than an individual, it could not be caught by the legislation; not only did it lose but Lord Justice Jacob also rejected it's claims that in order to win a harassment case a person would need to demonstrate that the company had "actual knowledge" that its behaviour was harassment.
I would be minded to contact FCC again and refer them to the case of British Gas vs Ferguson when a court ruled that a company can be guilty of harrassment due to the actions of its employees.
The Protection from Harassment Act, which created a civil and a criminal offence of harassment, states:
"A person must not pursue a course of conduct -
(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other."
British Gas attempted to argue that as a company, rather than an individual, it could not be caught by the legislation; not only did it lose but Lord Justice Jacob also rejected it's claims that in order to win a harassment case a person would need to demonstrate that the company had "actual knowledge" that its behaviour was harassment.
RJ
Established Member
I once reported a FCC ticket office clerk at Elephant & Castle who refused to sell me a St. Mary Cray - Swanley ticket. The fundamental concepts of impartiality and customer service seem to have evaded this particular member of staff. I reported this directly to his manager, in person who promised to get back to me but never did. Hopefully it will not happen again next time I go there.
- Status