Llandudno refurb - is that it?

[notlob.divad]

As the OP may I respectfully point out that this thread was about the (expensive) refurbishment of Llandudno station rather than North Wales coast service patterns.

Yes sorry. Investing in a station usually implies a better level of service will be seen there in the future. ie Manchester Victoria. Where as this seems to be money spent with a resulting lower connectivity, and it is understandable why it might be locked early/poorly staffed, if the level of service has declined.

However the cost of work on the Railways even what may appear to be cosmetic work that doesn't touch the track, does seem to be on an upward spiral.

 

[kieron]

One reason I rarely use the train to travel to/from Llandudno is the cost.

A day return from Chester is now priced at £19.40 and this now has peak restrictions attached to it. For flexibility, I would have to spend £21.30.

For flexibility, you would buy a day return from Wrexham for £20.70. Off-peak returns from Hooton cost the same (that is, less than from Chester), but don't allow break of journey. I don't know why anyone would know that, though.

The railways rarely seem like a cheap option when you don'tt have to pay to park at your destination.

In days of yore, we used to have the Coastliner bus, which was a good alternative to the train as the 2 hour journey time was a reasonable trade off to save a bit on the rail fare.

Did they go to Llandudno? I remember them being from Chester to Rhyl, Llandudno Junction or Caernarfon.

 

[berneyarms]

Sorry, we have dragged the thread off topic, and I hold hands up for being a major cause of it!

Could I suggest using this thread for discussing North Wales service patterns?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=130852

 

[crispy1978]

Not seen Llandudno since the upgrade, but I must admit pre-upgrade, it didn't tick many boxes - be that the station or the town itself which I thought was very dated and old fashioned.

 

[6Gman]

Sorry, we have dragged the thread off topic, and I hold hands up for being a major cause of it!

It's ok - my comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek.

But I do wonder if the cost of financing the £5M "improvement" could instead have been used to operate trains!

 

[berneyarms]

It's ok - my comment was slightly tongue-in-cheek.

But I do wonder if the cost of financing the £5M "improvement" could instead have been used to operate trains!

Where would the trains be sourced from?

And who would pay for them on an ongoing basis?

The station works are a one-off cost that would be out of a separate budget.

 

[6Gman]

Where would the trains be sourced from?

And who would pay for them on an ongoing basis?

The station works are a one-off cost that would be out of a separate budget.

That's why I referred to "the cost of financing". Based on my experience in local government a £5M capital scheme would be written off over, say, 50 years plus - say 5% - for financing the sum (i.e. interest) giving an annualised cost of around £350,000.

What is the best use of £350k p.a. in the area:

Refurbishing the station?
Extended staffing?
Additional services?

I accept there remains the issue of sourcing any necessary stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not seen Llandudno since the upgrade, but I must admit pre-upgrade, it didn't tick many boxes - be that the station or the town itself which I thought was very dated and old fashioned.

The refurb just brought the station up to acceptable minimum standards, after the BR demolition job on the grand old station decades ago.
The town itself, actually, is one of the high spots of North Wales redevelopment, with good hotels, conference centre/theatre (hosting Welsh National Opera twice a year, and party annual conferences).
The locals like to keep the Victorian theme, which is one of its main attractions.
It is also the main retail centre for the coast, hosting stores that are otherwise 50 miles away at Chester or further.

The station needs a boost in through services (notably a return of the daily London train, an ideal off-peak destination from Euston, if only seasonal).
Sunday services, on a key tourist day, are abysmal (the branch is closed completely in winter).

Hopefully, some of this will find its way into the 2018 W&B franchise spec.

 

[PHILIPE]

The refurb just brought the station up to acceptable minimum standards, after the BR demolition job on the grand old station decades ago.
The town itself, actually, is one of the high spots of North Wales redevelopment, with good hotels, conference centre/theatre (hosting Welsh National Opera twice a year, and party annual conferences).
The locals like to keep the Victorian theme, which is one of its main attractions.
It is also the main retail centre for the coast, hosting stores that are otherwise 50 miles away at Chester or further.

The station needs a boost in through services (notably a return of the daily London train, an ideal off-peak destination from Euston, if only seasonal).
Sunday services, on a key tourist day, are abysmal (the branch is closed completely in winter).



Hopefully, some of this will find its way into the 2018 W&B franchise spec.

The lack of a Winter Sunday service has been put down to signal box costs. ATW won't take the lead in attempting to run a service irrespective of cost, as they would just say it's not a franchise commitment. In the Summer, the service is merely a shuttle to and from the Junction.

 

[6Gman]

The refurb just brought the station up to acceptable minimum standards, after the BR demolition job on the grand old station decades ago.

Acceptable minimum standards?

No toilets after 14.30

No information after 15.00 - not even a rack of timetables


Acceptable?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Acceptable minimum standards?
No toilets after 14.30
No information after 15.00 - not even a rack of timetables
Acceptable?

Well I meant the structure rather than the service!

 

[fflint]

Must agree with LNW-GW the station is a lot better than the semi derelict state it was left in by BR. Sadly the provisioning of staff/manning levels/services is down to Arriva, as LNW says, hopefully these can be changed in the next franchise award.
As to Llandudno as a resort, it is the best of the N Wales resorts, even though it's Victorian style isn't everyone's cup of tea. Where else can you combine 2 different types of beach, stunning scenery, the Great and Little Orme and numerous Museums along with fine accommodation.
Before anyone asks I don't and never have worked for the tourist board

 

[berneyarms]

That's why I referred to "the cost of financing". Based on my experience in local government a £5M capital scheme would be written off over, say, 50 years plus - say 5% - for financing the sum (i.e. interest) giving an annualised cost of around £350,000.

What is the best use of £350k p.a. in the area:

Refurbishing the station?
Extended staffing?
Additional services?

I accept there remains the issue of sourcing any necessary stock.

I think improving station facilities and extended staffing hours would be the first priorities, and after that a winter Sunday service, if even just a connecting shuttle to/from Llandudno Junction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think improving station facilities and extended staffing hours would be the first priorities, and after that a winter Sunday service, if even just a connecting shuttle to/from Llandudno Junction.

Different pots, though.
Station upgrades come from NR as an agreed long-term plan (CP5 etc).
Service/staffing is down to ATW, and they have zero incentive to change anything before franchise renewal.
It's quite likely the WG agreed to the last set of changes which put LHCS into use on the Manchester run, in order to move the stock where it was most needed.
Sundays are problematic while there is manual signalling along the coast.
It is due to be replaced next year but reportedly the plan has been put on hold.

 

[berneyarms]

Different pots, though.
Station upgrades come from NR as an agreed long-term plan (CP5 etc).
Service/staffing is down to ATW, and they have zero incentive to change anything before franchise renewal.
It's quite likely the WG agreed to the last set of changes which put LHCS into use on the Manchester run, in order to move the stock where it was most needed.
Sundays are problematic while there is manual signalling along the coast.
It is due to be replaced next year but reportedly the plan has been put on hold.

I am fully aware of that. I actually made that point already in post #36 above.

I'm only responding directly to the OP's question in post #37.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The lack of a Winter Sunday service has been put down to signal box costs. ATW won't take the lead in attempting to run a service irrespective of cost, as they would just say it's not a franchise commitment. In the Summer, the service is merely a shuttle to and from the Junction.

Did the idea of changing the setup to two independent single lines from the Junction, then closing Llandudno box, not go forward, then?

 

[trainophile]

Went to Llandudno today for a day trip (just possible with an early start from Hereford), and was disappointed to find that there was nowhere on the station or in the vicinity where we could buy a newspaper!

Same situation at Junction, unless a several minute hike to Asda counts, which our connection did not permit. And we sat on a bench under a plastic "shelter" on the platform at Junction, and got as wet as we would have standing out in the rain. The whole place could be summed up with the word "bleak" .

But I love the town, the Promenade and the Pier, which deserve better rail facilities.

 

[ivanhoe]

Really nice resort but its major transport competitor is the A55 which transports the day trippers by car or coach. Still gets a half decent service( winter Sunday's excepted) and buses are plentiful from Llandudno Junction. Llandudno gets a fair number of visitors out of season as well. The whole area including the wonderful Conway is a favourite of mine but it's a chore by train from Loughborough .

 

[PHILIPE]

Extract from ATW Journey Check today re Llandudno station:-

Additional Information
Booking Office Hours:
Mon-Fri (July-August) - 08:30 to 18:00
Sat (July-August) - 09:15 to 15:45
Sun (July-August) - 10:00 to 17:30

Mon-Fri (September-June) - 08:30 to 15:00
Sat (September-June) - 09:15 to 15:45
Sun (September-June) - CLOSED

A little late to tell us about July now, but I suspect the announcement is backdated