Llandudno - Utter Disgrace

[dk1]

I look at pictures & have memories of Great Yarmouth (Vauxhall) when i was a kid in the 70s with it's roof & general busyness what with goods & parcels along with hauled trains & the carriage sidings. So sad most has gone now.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hope the Imperial Hotel is in a better state than the station .. have heard about some improvements. Will be interesting to see what happens.

We will now only use the Osborne House hotel on North Parade on the Promenade since being recommended late last year to try it by a former middle-managerial member of my Consultancy staff, who has stayed in a number of the hotels there. The decor and food there were excellent, and whilst it is not one of the lower priced hotels, but we found it good value for the money that we paid. We also find the Dean Court Hotel opposite to the Minster in York to be similar since the refurbishments by Best Western were carried out, earning an extra "A" star in its rating.
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I look at pictures & have memories of Great Yarmouth (Vauxhall) when i was a kid in the 70s with it's roof & general busyness what with goods & parcels along with hauled trains & the carriage sidings. So sad most has gone now.

Is this the one where there were still peripheral cast-iron posts still retained with the cast monogram of the original railway company ?.

 

[lancastrian]

If Llandudno had the number of passengers as Southport or Blackpool North then this thread would probably not exist! Sadly the better comparison is with terminals like Lowestoft, Skegness, Morecambe or Whitby. In comparison with those stations Llandudno while still depressing somehow seems less awful.

I don't know Lowestoft or Skegness, but I know both Morecamber & Whitby very well. Morecambe has been totally ruined by closing the old Promanade Station being replaced by just a platform and shed. When there is the upturn in rail travel that will come when the oil really starts to run out, then the constant shorttermism will come back to bite us.

Whitby is a lovely station, quite well maintained but has been serverly limited now. There is only one platform, which causes major problems for the NYMR services to Whitby, along with the singling of the line between Grosmont and Whitby serverly limits the capacity. There are tentative plans to install a run-round loop and a second platform. there is spce for both thankfully, because the ubiquatous supermarket was not built to close to the remaining running line.

I have been to Llandudno a few times, but not recently, but from experiance I know that "improvement" actually means "reduced capacity" and "reduced facilities". I hope this will not be the case at Llandudno but don't hold your breath.

It is a real pity as Llandudno is a nice place to visit and a wonderful trip up Great Orme as well.
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You're absolutely right Paul - wasn't Morecambe known as "Bradford on Sea"?

I don't know why those in Bradford went to the west coast for their holidays (whilst the rest of Yorkshire tended to go to the east coast) - it may be tied up in the criss crossing map of independent railway companies back then but that's just a guess.

The answer is quite simple really, the line from Bradford Forester Square to Morecambe was built and run by the Midland Railway. There were direct services so people used them.

The same reason for places like Halifax, Bradford (Exchange) and other places in the Calder Valley, as these lines were built and run by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, they also owned the lines to Southport and Blackpool. Although the later was joint with the LNWR. The L&Y Rly owned two thirds of the joint lines in the Fylde.

I hope that this helps.

 

[merlodlliw]

Llandudno is a nice town, the station is a disgrace, as for the comments above about its clean up, usually means less capacity, that may well be correct.

As for other North Wales stations, I find Wrexham General to be the best kept & cleanest now, a few years ago it also was a disgrace.

Bob

 

[Scouseinmanc]

'A few overgrown platforms' may not rank highly among some. However, for me it does.

I do not think demolishing them / handing the land over to supermarkets & car parks is the answer either.

Years ago, there were prizes for Britains best kept stations. What happened..?

Time will only tell as to whether or not passenger numbers to seaside resorts will increase. I would hedge my bets that they will, given that 'staycations' are becoming more popular as a result of the economic climate.

To this end, I think it important to look after current infrastructure. Not only does it look like people actually care, but you never know when it may be needed again in the future.

 

[tbtc]

'A few overgrown platforms' may not rank highly among some. However, for me it does.

I do not think demolishing them / handing the land over to supermarkets & car parks is the answer either

What is the answer then? It only gets a couple of departures an hour yet it has half a dozen platforms - spend money bringing them all up to standard (even though two is enough)?

Time will only tell as to whether or not passenger numbers to seaside resorts will increase. I would hedge my bets that they will, given that 'staycations' are becoming more popular as a result of the economic climate

The way the economy is going I don't think people will have money for any kind of holidays!

 

[merlodlliw]

What is the answer then? It only gets a couple of departures an hour yet it has half a dozen platforms - spend money bringing them all up to standard (even though two is enough)?



The way the economy is going I don't think people will have money for any kind of holidays!

Love the word staycations, I stayed at a TUC training residential Country House between Barnslery & Sheffield about 15 years ago,how about that for a short stay,
top notch food,forget its name, but the pub next door sold 50 Irish Whiskeys.

Bob

 

[6Gman]

Yes! And they should get enough backing from the government to ensure a tidy, smart and safe railway for the country - as a national asset.

I'm not sure that many people would feel that renovating Llandudno station is a higher priority (for the government) than schools, health care or equipping the army!
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Llandudno and I go back a long, long way. Brought up in the area; father & grandfather both worked at Llandudno Junction MPD.

The station is currently a disgrace, pure and simple.

And the answer is also simple.

Replace it with a modest but adequate facility, probably two platforms, probably without run-round facilities (top and tail from the Junction when necessary).

And keep it decently tidy.

Fund it by the development of adjoining land.

Problem - in the current financial climate the land value probably isn't enough to fund the work.

 

[Holly]

I'm not sure that many people would feel that renovating Llandudno station is a higher priority (for the government) than ...
Replace it with a modest but adequate facility, probably two platforms, probably without run-round facilities (top and tail from the Junction when necessary). ...

If anywhere needs a couple of extra platforms for rare use it is somewhere like Llandudno. Which should be able to attract reintroduced weekend-only excursions (when rolling stock is available) and heritage specials.

For example I could see a Summer Sundays only Manchester to Warrington to Llandudno day-at-the-resort excursion selling well. With perhaps a side trip to Blaneau or somewhere if it is a suitable DMU.

As to run-around, if it is already there then for goodness sake leave it in place as a heritage terminus.

Reducing platforms to barely today's needs is so short-sighted.

 

[HSTEd]

As to run-around, if it is already there then for goodness sake leave it in place as a heritage terminus.

Reducing platforms to barely today's needs is so short-sighted.

Who pays for this?
We can't just maintain random surplus capacity at great expense for a handful of services a year, it just costs too much money.

If there are six platforms but only two in regular use a reasonable compromise would be to retain three and demolish the remainder. Do the existing trains fill the platforms full length or is it like the DMUs at Newquay?

 

[6Gman]

If anywhere needs a couple of extra platforms for rare use it is somewhere like Llandudno. Which should be able to attract reintroduced weekend-only excursions (when rolling stock is available) and heritage specials.

For example I could see a Summer Sundays only Manchester to Warrington to Llandudno day-at-the-resort excursion selling well. With perhaps a side trip to Blaneau or somewhere if it is a suitable DMU.

As to run-around, if it is already there then for goodness sake leave it in place as a heritage terminus.

Reducing platforms to barely today's needs is so short-sighted.

Have you visited Llandudno by train recently?

The typical loading on the trains I've used (probably ten or a dozen in the past three years) is 12-20.

No, not 120-200.

12-20.

Of course, if you think that a weekly Sunday excursion would sell well, there's nothing to stop you (or a charter operator) running one. I wonder why people don't?
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Who pays for this?
We can't just maintain random surplus capacity at great expense for a handful of services a year, it just costs too much money.

If there are six platforms but only two in regular use a reasonable compromise would be to retain three and demolish the remainder. Do the existing trains fill the platforms full length or is it like the DMUs at Newquay?[/QUOTE]

The platforms would probably take a 10-12 coach set.

They are rarely used by anything longer than a 3car 175.

 

[Tracky]

There are half a dozen charters this summer to Llandudno top and tailed Steam & Diesel. They are booked to run from either Liverpool-Warrington-Chester or Crewe-Manchester-Warrington-Chester. There are also two Steam hauled Vintage Trains runs from the Birmingham area. The problem is the nearest turning facility is Valley. I did wonder if the Northern Markets owned goods yard would be a viable site for a steam centre, turntable and concrete servicing pad. Unfortunatly NR have just laid down footings for a GSMR mast over the entry line to that site.

There are a fair number of diesel hauled excursion trains too. Even the Royal Scotsman touring train has visited on its 7 day grand tour.

 

[Masboroughlad]

Been to Cleethorpes today - again sad to see a once busy seaside terminus run down, but it looks, and is better for passengers than Llandudno!

 

[tbtc]

Have you visited Llandudno by train recently?

The typical loading on the trains I've used (probably ten or a dozen in the past three years) is 12-20.

No, not 120-200.

12-20

The ever reliable Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llandudno_railway_station) shows 287,000 people used the station in 2009/2010.

Lets be optimistic and say that there are now 300,000 - for the sake of passenger growth and a nice round number.

300,000 in total is 150,000 arrivals and 150,000 departures.

So, of the 150,000 departures a year, that makes 2,884 each week or 412 a day.

Assuming that there are a couple of services an hour (hourly to Manchester plus shorts to the Junction and the Blaenau service) and that services run twelve hours a day (again, for the sake of a round number) and you have seventeen people on the average departure.

Can someone correct me if my maths/assumptions are wrong? (yes, there are no trains on Christmas Day, before anyone points out...)

 

[OxtedL]

The 2010/11 figures soar to a shocking 308952 entries and exits a year for Llandudno.

In the current timetable there are something like 204 departures from Llandudno each week.

On this basis, the average load per train hovers at around 15 per train. By playing with the possibility of error a bit in those figures you can flex that from around 11 to 20.

 

[HSTEd]

Can't you support two departures an hour from a single platform?
Although I imagine two would be the most flexible option.

Demolish the rest.

 

[tbtc]

The 2010/11 figures soar to a shocking 308952 entries and exits a year for Llandudno.

In the current timetable there are something like 204 departures from Llandudno each week.

On this basis, the average load per train hovers at around 15 per train. By playing with the possibility of error a bit in those figures you can flex that from around 11 to 20.

Sounds fair - no need for half a dozen sparkling platforms for those numbers

 

[ainsworth74]

Can't you support two departures an hour from a single platform?
Although I imagine two would be the most flexible option.

Unless you're planning on singling the entire route I'd suggest two platforms is the most sensible option. Actually going down to one platform would probably increase the maintenance requirements as if you kept it as a two track line then you'd need crossovers at each end of the station which would add complexity and something to go wrong.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless you're planning on singling the entire route I'd suggest two platforms is the most sensible option. Actually going down to one platform would probably increase the maintenance requirements as if you kept it as a two track line then you'd need crossovers at each end of the station which would add complexity and something to go wrong.

Wait what? I thought we were talking about Llandudno which is a terminus rather than Llandudno station?

 

[6Gman]

The 2010/11 figures soar to a shocking 308952 entries and exits a year for Llandudno.

In the current timetable there are something like 204 departures from Llandudno each week.

On this basis, the average load per train hovers at around 15 per train. By playing with the possibility of error a bit in those figures you can flex that from around 11 to 20.

Gosh, I wasn't far out was I? Worth pointing out that the station closes entirely on winter Sundays, which is telling.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wait what? I thought we were talking about Llandudno which is a terminus rather than Llandudno station?

Urgh brain fart. Sorry

Of course you're right Landudno is a terminus and as such one platform might well be enough (though I'd suggest two would still be sensible).

 

[6Gman]

Can't you support two departures an hour from a single platform?
Although I imagine two would be the most flexible option.

Demolish the rest.

For much of the day the two departures are the same unit, which goes Manchester - Llandudno - Junction - Llandudno - Manchester. That, plus the 3hourly Blaenau unit is the usual pattern I think.

The heart of this issue is surely straightforward:

a) Have a modest station, which (might) be improved and then maintained
b) Keep a huge rambling station which will never get improved (and probably won't be properly maintained).

As somebody says - simples

 

[Joseph_Locke]

As to run-around, if it is already there then for goodness sake leave it in place as a heritage terminus.

Reducing platforms to barely today's needs is so short-sighted.

A two-platform station with 8-car capacity on each can deal with nine 3- or 4-car trains an hour on typical turnrounds. There used to be one at that overgrown backwater called Manchester Airport, but that now has three platforms (but only deals with nine an hour still).

The problem with Llandudno is that the approaches and buffer stop arrangements are chronic, so as soon as you tinker you need to sort it all out. I understand that there will still be three 150m long platform faces.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Have you visited Llandudno by train recently?

The typical loading on the trains I've used (probably ten or a dozen in the past three years) is 12-20.

No, not 120-200.

12-20.

Hmmm. Very run-down station that from all accounts here is not a pleasant place to be. Poor passenger numbers. Is it possible there might be a connection...?

Of course, if you think that a weekly Sunday excursion would sell well, there's nothing to stop you (or a charter operator) running one. I wonder why people don't?

Aside from Tracky's answer, I doubt there's that many people here who have the finance and knowledge to hire and advertise a train! And I would hazard a guess that bureaucracy and the need to plan paths etc. means the number of chartered special trains is a lot less than it could be.

 

[MarkyT]

I understand that there will still be three 150m long platform faces.

Something like this might work, and provides a run-round facility for specials and engineering trains.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Who pays for this?
We can't just maintain random surplus capacity at great expense for a handful of services a year, it just costs too much money.

If there are six platforms but only two in regular use a reasonable compromise would be to retain three and demolish the remainder. Do the existing trains fill the platforms full length or is it like the DMUs at Newquay?

I agree that could seem wasteful, but the other side is: Look at the high cost we're all now paying for closing down masses of lines 40-50 years ago that at the time people believed would never be used, and now it's obvious that we should have kept them (or at least kept the paths open). 6 platforms is certainly overkill for a place like Llandudno, and I don't suggest that we maintain even most of those as actively ready-to-use platforms - that would be a waste of money. But surely some solution could be found that involves keeping the land free for future railway use in case it's ever required. Build a cafe or small tourist gift shop on a disused platform? Or put some decent flower beds there? Can't be that expensive surely, and would make for a much nicer environment at the station.

 

[HSTEd]

How about this?
In combination with this you would single the line back to Llandudno junction, which would be reduced to two platforms in between the island and the southern platform face, and a third face in place of the southernmost bay platform.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

How about this?
In combination with this you would single the line back to Llandudno junction, which would be reduced to two platforms in between the island and the southern platform face, and a third face in place of the southernmost bay platform.

What about that?

A contractor has been identified for the works, an agreed design is in place and final contract negotiations are reaching a conclusion.

Why bother speculating further? Your layout isn't the one being implemented, by the way.

 

[Holly]

Something like this might work, and provides a run-round facility for specials and engineering trains.

A run around is indeed a valuable feature for a place that sees itself as a tourist destination.

But as another has intimated, the important thing is to restrict developments pursuant to downsizing to things that will not prevent reinstatement (e.g. of six platforms) when conditions change.

 

[RobShipway]

You have also got to allow for the fact that I believe that there is from time to time, 8 car special Steam Trains that run to Llandudno.