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Llangollen Railway appoints receivers

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kje7812

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Will that leave the Llangollen Railway with any catering vehicles at all?
Technically they will have a (replica) LMS buffet but that seems to not run in years and thus would need a fair bit of work to get working. It should be noted that 1697 has also not run in years and apparently is air braked only at the moment.
 
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Bletchleyite

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To be fair it would not exactly be difficult to take some seats out of a TSO and set up some sort of counter serving from flasks etc.

But is one really needed on such a short journey anyway? Just sell from the station?
 

paul1609

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I agree but the problem is if the company had no assets it would have been unable to raise any cash/capital to fund the company investments (eg the engineering machinery). Also they would have a really poor credit rating for any potential creditors doing a financial checks. This can be got round by a parental guarantee but this sort of arrangement would need to be underwritten by someone with cash/assets and brings you back to the problem that they want to avoid.
If you read the accounts, Llangollen plc was actingas guarantors for the trust.
 

headshot119

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Will that leave the Llangollen Railway with any catering vehicles at all?

They only had the MK1 RMB (1864) which is going, the LNER Thompson Buffet (1706) which is gone / going, and a MK1 RBR (1697) which is on air braked bogies and privately owned which has never run. So no catering vehicles will be left.

That said, other than very limited use on gala days no use has been made of them really over the last 12 years anyway.
 

Richard Scott

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They only had the MK1 RMB (1864) which is going, the LNER Thompson Buffet (1706) which is gone / going, and a MK1 RBR (1697) which is on air braked bogies and privately owned which has never run. So no catering vehicles will be left.

That said, other than very limited use on gala days no use has been made of them really over the last 12 years anyway.
It's not hard to convert an air brakes vehicle to a vacuum braked one as long as you have vacuum cylinders and can make pipework. Know the RMB at the GWR in its maroon rake was so treated.
 

Spartacus

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That said, other than very limited use on gala days no use has been made of them really over the last 12 years anyway.

That’s quite sad, and probably tells it’s own story too. The K&WVR despite only being half as long manages to do a roaring trade from it’s buffet/bars.

We’d kind of assumed the buffet being closed was a one off when we went a few days ago as it was in the formation, and ended up with only a cup of tea and frozen frying chips cooked in the oven (worst chips ever!) bought from Llangollen station to last us until we got back to Llangollen.
 

Titfield

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Running a successful catering operation is not as easy as it may first seem.

Issues to consider are:
1. The level and quality of competing offerings.
2. The ability, aptitude and drive of the staff.
3. For HRs, the amount of volunteer labour able to meet issue 2.

If you are paying staff then any notional profit can fly out of the window on a poor trading day or indeed on a "good day" if you employ more staff than an efficient operation requires.
 

paul1609

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Running a successful catering operation is not as easy as it may first seem.

Issues to consider are:
1. The level and quality of competing offerings.
2. The ability, aptitude and drive of the staff.
3. For HRs, the amount of volunteer labour able to meet issue 2.

If you are paying staff then any notional profit can fly out of the window on a poor trading day or indeed on a "good day" if you employ more staff than an efficient operation requires.
Its also been hit by increases in minimum wages, pensions entitlement and will be hit by the Uber decision on zero hours contracts. Look to some railways being retail only catering (tea, coffee, prepacked sandwiches etc) in the future.
 

Bletchleyite

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Its also been hit by increases in minimum wages, pensions entitlement and will be hit by the Uber decision on zero hours contracts. Look to some railways being retail only catering (tea, coffee, prepacked sandwiches etc) in the future.

On board that is the only thing that really makes sense anyway, other than for special occasions like Christmas dinner trains where you could just contract it in and have it cooked away from the train and loaded on board cooked.

In terms of a cafe at the station, in an even vaguely touristy place this should be a highly profitable endeavour, and so if the railway can't manage it bringing in a concession of some kind (e.g. a local operator, I'm not thinking SSP!) would make sense.
 

paul1609

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In terms of a cafe at the station, in an even vaguely touristy place this should be a highly profitable endeavour, and so if the railway can't manage it bringing in a concession of some kind (e.g. a local operator, I'm not thinking SSP!) would make sense.
A lot of that depends on your stations location within the area and the competition. The enthusiast market is notoriously in the "tesco value meal" market which with which no heritage railway can compete. If your station is more that a couple of hundred yards from the centre you will only attract outside business when trains are running and you need the facilities for paying customers. If you visit any national trust or english heritage attraction you will now only be offered a very limited range of food and drinks pannini and top of the range sandwich product, expensive coffee tea products. Heritage Railways arent exempt from such trends. As with everything it starts in London and the southeast and spreads gradually northwards.
 

35B

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On board that is the only thing that really makes sense anyway, other than for special occasions like Christmas dinner trains where you could just contract it in and have it cooked away from the train and loaded on board cooked.

In terms of a cafe at the station, in an even vaguely touristy place this should be a highly profitable endeavour, and so if the railway can't manage it bringing in a concession of some kind (e.g. a local operator, I'm not thinking SSP!) would make sense.
"Should" isn't "is"; a lot depends on stock and mood; margins aren't necessarily great and can easily become a distraction from core activities (and income) if not kept in check. Which takes us back to Llangollen, where a sideline business set up to exploit existing assets and make marginal income has brought the whole company down.
 

Titfield

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Its also been hit by increases in minimum wages, pensions entitlement and will be hit by the Uber decision on zero hours contracts. Look to some railways being retail only catering (tea, coffee, prepacked sandwiches etc) in the future.
Absolutely. You are far more likely to get volunteers willing and able to operate a hot and cold drinks, prepackaged sandwiches, cake and crisps type of offering than a fully blown cooked to order cafe.

As much as we may want a "brief encounter" type tea room with a full service offering the reality is that it would be very unlikely to be a viable business on many heritage railways for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

Many make the assumption that cafes in tourist areas are highly profitable businesses but very often they are not. Staffing costs and the seasonal nature of the business are very significant factors.
 

jumble

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Absolutely. You are far more likely to get volunteers willing and able to operate a hot and cold drinks, prepackaged sandwiches, cake and crisps type of offering than a fully blown cooked to order cafe.

As much as we may want a "brief encounter" type tea room with a full service offering the reality is that it would be very unlikely to be a viable business on many heritage railways for the reasons stated earlier in this thread.

Many make the assumption that cafes in tourist areas are highly profitable businesses but very often they are not. Staffing costs and the seasonal nature of the business are very significant factors.
I am sure you are correct but there are a few exceptions
We had the opposite experience on the Great Central at one of their Galas
We wanted breakfast in a griddle car but despite them apparantly selling 4 times the usual amount they had run out of bacon and sausages.
On another occasion the Bluebell Cafe thing did a roaring trade of pie and mash on a winter gala.
They kept it ever so simple which no doubt helps...
Meat pie or veg pie mash and peas
Spooners on the Ffestiniog always seems busy
 

kje7812

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I am sure you are correct but there are a few exceptions
We had the opposite experience on the Great Central at one of their Galas
We wanted breakfast in a griddle car but despite them apparantly selling 4 times the usual amount they had run out of bacon and sausages.
On another occasion the Bluebell Cafe thing did a roaring trade of pie and mash on a winter gala.
They kept it ever so simple which no doubt helps...
Meat pie or veg pie mash and peas
Spooners on the Ffestiniog always seems busy
Tbf, the GCR and Bluebell aren't particularly near other food outlets in my experience and Spooners has the advantage of being a pub on the waterfront.
 

D6130

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Tbf, the GCR and Bluebell aren't particularly near other food outlets in my experience and Spooners has the advantage of being a pub on the waterfront.
Yes....other pubs operated by heritage railways seemed to do quite well in pre-Covid days, e.g. The Railwaymens' Arms at Bridgnorth, which presumably was open to the public when the railway was not operating. The real ale buffet car on the Worth Valley always seemed to be pretty busy too.
 

Bletchleyite

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Tbf, the GCR and Bluebell aren't particularly near other food outlets in my experience and Spooners has the advantage of being a pub on the waterfront.

Spooners I always thought to be sensibly named as it's very similar to a 'Spoons, nothing really special. Its location gets it all the business.
 

kje7812

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Yes....other pubs operated by heritage railways seemed to do quite well in pre-Covid days, e.g. The Railwaymens' Arms at Bridgnorth, which presumably was open to the public when the railway was not operating. The real ale buffet car on the Worth Valley always seemed to be pretty busy too.
Yes the Railwayman's Arms and The King and Castle are, in normal years, open every day bar Christmas day. The Railwayman's is open atm and the K&C will be reopening on monday all being well.
 

John Luxton

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The Spa Valley have announced that they have acquired RMB 1864. Some previous comments elsewhere suggested they had offered £30k for it.
This actually leaves the Llangollen without a buffet as Thompson Buffet 1706 will be moving to Embassy shortly (if it hasn't ready).

(New 10/05) Reports indicate there were a number of representatives viewing the lots yesterday, and today is another viewing day. The auction ends 12th May.
Additionally, Restaurant Buffet 1697 has been added to the list of lots as Lot 11a.
In recent years they hardly ever seemed to use the buffet car except at galas. It was often in trains but never open.

I get the feeling was they liked to decant passengers to use the station buffet at Carrog.
 

Titfield

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As has been said earlier in this thread the level of competition can be a very significant factor.

Swanage Railway for example has:
1) a Co-Op Store which has a Costa Coffee self service machine literally a stones throw from the station.
2) a Budgens Store which also has a Costa Coffee self service machine a stones throw and half from the station.
3) a Greggs takeaway two stones throw from the station.
4) A Harry Ramsdens two a bit stones throw from the station.
5) About 30 takeaways, fish and chip shops, cafes, pubs, ice cream parlours within a 5 minute walk.
 

John Luxton

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As has been said earlier in this thread the level of competition can be a very significant factor.

Swanage Railway for example has:
1) a Co-Op Store which has a Costa Coffee self service machine literally a stones throw from the station.
2) a Budgens Store which also has a Costa Coffee self service machine a stones throw and half from the station.
3) a Greggs takeaway two stones throw from the station.
4) A Harry Ramsdens two a bit stones throw from the station.
5) About 30 takeaways, fish and chip shops, cafes, pubs, ice cream parlours within a 5 minute walk.
Apart from the Bridge End Hotel and a couple of takeaway outlets not a lot of immediate competition at Llangollen.

In fact in recent years they expanded the catering facilities in the station with addition of the Carriages Tea Rooms Cafe in a former brake carriage in addition to the existing cafe, that expansion suggests they were not suffering competion but wishing to provide more off train catering. When I have been there they appear to be well used.

What has surprised me is that have not gone for a bar on the premises. I am sure my mind isn't playing tricks that at some time in the 1990s it was mentioned that the station building on the river side of the station was going to be converted into a bar.

They have had occasional "pop up" bars in the Function Room located in the old street level entrance in recent years - usually to coincide with galas.

John
 

GWR Man

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Including the RMB sold before the auction, the auction sale was over £1/2 M with the coaches over £300 K. The privately owned RBR 1697 failed to sell.
 

JonathanH

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That appears to be more than the debts reported in the original message of around £350,000.
 

EbbwJunction1

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Where does this money go to?

I'd guess that some of it will be used to pay off the debts (c£350k as above), but that leaves around £150k less any fees and charges for the receivers etc. "in the bank". So, does this money go to the railway and, if so, which part of it?
 

Bletchleyite

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Where does this money go to?

I'd guess that some of it will be used to pay off the debts (c£350k as above), but that leaves around £150k less any fees and charges for the receivers etc. "in the bank". So, does this money go to the railway and, if so, which part of it?

Shareholders of the PLC would presumably get it.
 

Worf

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Once the receivers have taken their cut, I doubt there will be anything left.
 

BayPaul

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That appears to be more than the debts reported in the original message of around £350,000.
Which does make you wonder why the receivers were called in, rather than the plc just selling some of its own rolling stock to pay the debts.
 
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