Llangollen Railway warns it’s at risk of closure

[37424]

Personally I cannot see Heritage Railways getting back up and running again this year, if they do i can see it being on a very limited basis with book in advance tickets on lightly loaded trains to allow plenty of social distancing. In this uncertain situation as much as I would like to donate to a number of Railways including this I don't feel I can do it at present as my future job situation may be questionable.

I think it is likely some will go under and perhaps while clearly not good for those that have spent much time and effort on these lines perhaps being controversial maybe it needs to happen as for the long term there are too many of these railways trying to chase too many volunteers, enthusiasts and tourists than are available.

 

[Meerkat]

Personally I cannot see Heritage Railways getting back up and running again this year, if they do i can see it being on a very limited basis with book in advance tickets on lightly loaded trains to allow plenty of social distancing. In this uncertain situation as much as I would like to donate to a number of Railways including this I don't feel I can do it at present as my future job situation may be questionable.

I think it is likely some will go under and perhaps while clearly not good for those that have spent much time and effort on these lines perhaps being controversial maybe it needs to happen as for the long term there are too many of these railways trying to chase too many volunteers, enthusiasts and tourists than are available.

Plenty of rumours there will be no football matches with fans this calendar year. If that were so it would be surprising if Heritage railways were allowed, particularly considering the age profile of visitors.

 

[Titfield]

If that means losing a years revenue then how many heritage raiways can sustain that level of fixed costs and no income?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty of rumours there will be no football matches with fans this calendar year. If that were so it would be surprising if Heritage railways were allowed, particularly considering the age profile of visitors.

Heritage railways are rather different than football matches. And it is of note that football matches were originally stopped not by compulsion but voluntarily, and the reason for that was not to protect fans, but to protect the hugely valuable financial assets - the players.

 

[Titfield]

Well yes but will volunteer staff wish to place themsleves at risk? will the "other halfs" of vounteer staff or those wanting to visit the railway dissuade them from visiting?

Without wishing to be unduly pessimistic I fear that some types of attraction - which includes heritage railways - will be some of the last to get back to normal.

 

[Meerkat]

Heritage railways are rather different than football matches. And it is of note that football matches were originally stopped not by compulsion but voluntarily, and the reason for that was not to protect fans, but to protect the hugely valuable financial assets - the players.

Yes and no. They are both crowds and whilst railway folk are less likely to sing, shout, and hug they are also likely to have come from a wider area than a football crowd.
A lot of football fans will actually be exposed to relatively few people - there isn’t that much mixing up of the crowd except at the bar (optional) and toilets (will need mitigations)

 

[geoffk]

According to this article published on The Railway Hub https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/11283/sos-llangollen-railway-warns-its-at-risk-of-closure/ , the Llangollen Railway is at risk of shutting down:"

A bit ironic just as they have reached Corwen, which should provide a boost to their revenue now that the line connects two towns.

I've just bought Christmas cards from the Ffestiniog on-line shop. Only £20 but I suppose it all helps. I wanted to get my East Lancs residents' pass as I live in Rochdale Borough but there is no-one at Bury to deal with it. The Worth Valley will be getting some income from storing Pacers for Northern. The Mid-Norfolk is storing new trains for Greater Anglia, while others such as the Ribble Steam Railway have commercial freight. Some lines, e.g. the GCR and SVR, have been used by the TOCs for testing of new trains and driver training but I expect these activities have also stopped for now. What other commercial activities are there?

 

[geoffk]

Another cost not mentioned (but one not faced by the Llangollen Railway) is the connection with Network Rail. Most heritage lines aspire to one in order to transfer stock and accept trains from the national network.

 

[bramling]

Plenty of rumours there will be no football matches with fans this calendar year. If that were so it would be surprising if Heritage railways were allowed, particularly considering the age profile of visitors.

Personally I wouldn’t have a problem with visiting a heritage railway, subject to perhaps some controls being imposed over numbers (although this could introduce difficulties as you wouldn’t want to be driving a long distance to find the capacity is sold out).

But there’s massive problems for this sector:

1) the age profile of many of the staff / volunteers

2) the fact that many make money from features like the tea rooms

3) the fact that many make money from coach parties, and that income is going to be completely missing for ages I think

It does, very unfortunately, feel rather bleak for preserved railways at this moment.

Then you have something like Snowdon Mountain Railway where the whole business model relies on packing people in. I suspect it wouldn’t be viable to run if each train can only take about 12 people up.

 

[Meerkat]

Then you have something like Snowdon Mountain Railway where the whole business model relies on packing people in. I suspect it wouldn’t be viable to run if each train can only take about 12 people up.

Depends if they can get those twelve people to pay enough to cover the marginal cost of running the service whilst they just try to stay alive for the duration.
Don’t forget that separation isn’t between everybody , just between household units (isn’t it???), so if you get families in you can cram more people on each trip, and couples can sit next to each other.

 

[James H]

Whilst times will undoubtedly be very lean for many heritage railways, I think that most will survive, even if it takes five or ten years to get back to previous activity levels.

What is unique about this crisis is that EVERYONE is affected. It's not like (for the most part) one sector or geographical area has the opportunity to benefit at the expense of another. Everyone in leisure / hospitality / tourism / travel is in precisely the same boat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends if they can get those twelve people to pay enough to cover the marginal cost of running the service whilst they just try to stay alive for the duration.
Don’t forget that separation isn’t between everybody , just between household units (isn’t it???), so if you get families in you can cram more people on each trip, and couples can sit next to each other.

Indeed.

As their trains have a door to each bay of seats, it wouldn't seem *outrageously* hard for them to stick up a load of perspex partitions and sell it by the compartment at the usual fare x the number of seats in the compartment, with each compartment purchaseable by any number of people in one household.

You could, on a classic preserved railway with Mk1s, just sell seating bays in that manner, but only sell half the bays in a coach, alternating across the aisle.

 

[paul1609]

Indeed.

As their trains have a door to each bay of seats, it wouldn't seem *outrageously* hard for them to stick up a load of perspex partitions and sell it by the compartment at the usual fare x the number of seats in the compartment, with each compartment purchaseable by any number of people in one household.

You could, on a classic preserved railway with Mk1s, just sell seating bays in that manner, but only sell half the bays in a coach, alternating across the aisle.

At my railway the Kent & East Sussex a major income is our Santa Specials and for many years we have sold whole compartments. This is one of the most popular santa "products" and always the first to sell out. So much so that we hire compartment stock in for this period from other heritage railways that don't have such a high demand at this time. Last year from the West Somerset and Swanage.

 

[fireftrm]

I wanted to get my East Lancs residents' pass as I live in Rochdale Borough but there is no-one at Bury to deal with it.

The £22 would be useful to them I'm sure, but after that your fares for 3 years would be a lot lower and thus reduced revenue. So better for the ELR right now would be to donate the same amount, with gift aid if you are a taxpayer, on ELR appeal - help to ensure that there is an ELR to buy and use a resident's permit on in the future?

 

[alexl92]

Of course the Coronavirus pandemic is not in any way the Llangollen railway's fault, but this is the second emergency appeal for funds to keep them alive in literally a few months.
When the WSR were on the brink last year, they made some major changes including a new acting chairman and some redundancies. Have the LlR announced anything similar to ensure they get back on an even keel? Surely they weren't intending to just take Mr Hosking's donation and then try & carry on as normal?

 

[6Gman]

Yes and no. They are both crowds and whilst railway folk are less likely to sing, shout, and hug they are also likely to have come from a wider area than a football crowd.
A lot of football fans will actually be exposed to relatively few people - there isn’t that much mixing up of the crowd except at the bar (optional) and toilets (will need mitigations)

I think the issue with football matches isn't so much the two hours in the ground as the travel and contact getting to and from the match.

 

[bramling]

Indeed.

As their trains have a door to each bay of seats, it wouldn't seem *outrageously* hard for them to stick up a load of perspex partitions and sell it by the compartment at the usual fare x the number of seats in the compartment, with each compartment purchaseable by any number of people in one household.

£250 per compartment?

Perhaps a little less as I’m assuming 8x full adult fares, but still an eye-watering figure for many, especially in a time when financial belts are likely to be tightening.

Having said that, they’re normally heavily over-subscribed so perhaps they might still fill with people prepared to pay for a peaceful and spacious trip up, compared to the normal which can be pretty unpleasant / uncomfortable on the diesel services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£250 per compartment?

Perhaps a little less as I’m assuming 8x full adult fares, but still an eye-watering figure for many, especially in a time when financial belts are likely to be tightening.

It's a very expensive tourist attraction. Yes, it might reduce demand, but some people will still pay it, particularly if they had been planning to blow 10 grand on a big international family holiday and have instead been reduced to a week in a Premier Inn in north Wales. In peak season it easily fully books, so I reckon they'd still make it wash its face. And hands.

(FWIW it's a lot cheaper than going up the Jungfrau (ooh-err) in Switzerland, which I recall being about a ton (GBP) each!)

 

[Maybach]

I've just received an e-mail from the West Somerset Railway with their latest appeal figures:

"Fundraising to support the railway during the lockdown period has so far achieved:

Donations directly to the WSR PLC - £56,343
Donations to the WSRA for Rail Renewal in 2020 - £14,505
Donations to the WSRA for Loco Restoration - £1,334

TOTAL = £72,182
THANK YOU VERY MUCH "

The WSR is also one of the first heritage lines to admit that it might not even re-open at all during 2020:

"The rest of 2020 remains an unknown and at the moment we don't know when or even if the railway will be able to open; or to what extent and for how long external support will be available."

 

[eldomtom2]

Indeed.

As their trains have a door to each bay of seats, it wouldn't seem *outrageously* hard for them to stick up a load of perspex partitions and sell it by the compartment at the usual fare x the number of seats in the compartment, with each compartment purchaseable by any number of people in one household.

You could, on a classic preserved railway with Mk1s, just sell seating bays in that manner, but only sell half the bays in a coach, alternating across the aisle.

Platforms could be a problem though. Would it be viable to get them to queue up and let groups onto the platform and train one at a time?

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I have no particular knowledge of the Llangollen railway so this isn't aimed at them.

In general terms though some preserved railways are better run than others with various degress of financial caution or daring. Some are pretty harmonious, while others are prey to internal feuding, personal squabbles and petty politics.

This period is likely to see the survival of the fittest, although with almost all railways having a divide between a trust or trusts owning the assets and a commercial operating company, the lines may well survive while the operating companies fail. What happens after that is difficult to forsee.

Would creditors of the former operating company be supportive of a 'phoenix' operator? Who knows?

In the Llangollen case I wonder if the presence of preserved railway projects in Oswestry and Welshpool has left them with a relatively weak support base. Again, that's pure speculation on my part.

 

[Llanigraham]

Tomas,
I would say there were different outlooks by volunteers at those places
Llangollen is seen as "main line" and "big railway"
Oswestry more industrial and "local"
Welshpool is narrow gauge and attracts a different group completely.

 

[Maybach]

In the Llangollen case I wonder if the presence of preserved railway projects in Oswestry and Welshpool has left them with a relatively weak support base. Again, that's pure speculation on my part.

I don't think the tiny Cambrian Heritage Railway at Oswestry is much of a competitor to the Llangollen - delightful though it is! Actually, the Llangollen Railway does have a strong support base. It's just that it's been asked to do too much in recent months. As I said in an earlier post, patience and wallets are going to start running a bit thin soon.

I've just checked the website and Llangollen has raised £14.1K so far. That compares poorly with many similar appeals and still falls way, way short of the £600K target.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

From the BBC website

"Llangollen Railway's appeal for financial help has raised enough to meet costs until July.

The heritage line received £75,000 after it asked for help while it remains closed to visitors due to the coronavirus crisis.

General manager Liz McGuinness said supporters had made donations and bought shares in the business.

She said without the money she did not know "what we would have done".

"I'm hoping we should open in September," Ms McGuinness said.

The railway employs 36 staff, most of whom have been furloughed."

 

[swanhill41]

Closed till September...Bar the Santa Specials no major income in 2020...Who will be left to operate in 2021?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Closed till September...Bar the Santa Specials no major income in 2020...Who will be left to operate in 2021?

If tourism is possible in September, a LOT of people will go for autumn/winter holidays, and probably domestic too. Could be quite good for this sort of attraction.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I think heritage railways might well be able to stretch the season later than normal certainly into October and even early November with Halloween and Guy Fawkes specials. The main problem is that social distancing is still likely to be around in some form.

 

[43096]

The main problem is that social distancing is still likely to be around in some form.

Is it? How do you know?

 

[EbbwJunction1]

I think heritage railways might well be able to stretch the season later than normal certainly into October and even early November with Halloween and Guy Fawkes specials. The main problem is that social distancing is still likely to be around in some form.

I've been wondering about the possibiolity of a longer opening period by those who normally close in early Autumn for some while. It would be good if they could open for longer, because it could enable some good business to be obtained. I'd certainly be very interested in a late Autumn visit to a few railways in the UK.

This would, of course, be subject to staffing and social distancing allowing. I'm not going to comment on either, especially the latter, because I don't know enough about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fortunately, given that running a preserved railway is pretty similar to running a "proper" one, they're going to have lots of evidence to look at on measures by the time they get anywhere near reopening.