LM: if you must have penalty fares, at least don't lie about them

[MKB]

Personally I find the whole concept of penalty fares rather odious. The idea that you punish a passenger who doesn't have time to queue for a ticket and wants to buy on board, says all you need to know about certain TOC's attitude to customer service.

However, browsing through London Midland's leaflet here http://www.londonmidland.com/download/491.4/penalty-fares-bookletpdf/ I couldn't help noticing the first paragraph on page 2:

"In common with most train operating companies, London Midland operates a penalty fares system on its services."

This smelled fishy, so I checked. Of the 29 TOCs listed at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/ only 8, according to the detailed information listed against each one, operate any kind of penalty fares scheme.

That, London Midland, is not "most".

 

[LondonLarry]

Personally I find the whole concept of penalty fares rather odious. The idea that you punish a passenger who doesn't have time to queue for a ticket and wants to buy on board, says all you need to know about certain TOC's attitude to customer service.

"Doesn't have time to queue for a ticket" - who's fault is that? It's not always the TOC's fault. If I don't have time to pay for my shopping, does it make it OK to walk out of the shop and not pay?

Chances are, if you 'forget' (for what ever reason) to buy a ticket before you board, you're unlikely to get one at the end of the journey or seek the guard out on the train.

Penalty Fares act as a stick to make people buy a ticket. The passive approach of assuming that everyone will buy a ticket before travelling clearly doesn't work in this country...

 

[dan_atki]

Out of the 24 listed on my own site (with information taken from the National Rail Timetable and the TOCs' sites), 12* have a penalty fares scheme in operation. Several others restrict the tickets you can buy on board to full priced standard (Anytime) tickets.

*c2c, Chiltern, First Capital Connect, First Great Western, Heathrow Connect, London Midland, London Overground, Merseyrail, National Express East Anglia, Southeastern, Southern, South West Trains.

 

[ukrob]

Personally I find the whole concept of penalty fares rather odious. The idea that you punish a passenger who doesn't have time to queue for a ticket and wants to buy on board, says all you need to know about certain TOC's attitude to customer service.

Maybe you should try walking out of shops without paying because you don't have time to queue. See what happens.

 

[Techniquest]

What surprised me re: Penalty Fares was the idea of LM extending their Penalty Fares area all the way out to Hereford. When I saw it on the screen at Great Malvern recently I stopped dead in my tracks thinking I'd mis-read it. Sure enough, I heard it was also coming out as far as Hereford soon.

If that is indeed the case, they need to hurry up and get the queues moving in there. Adding another ticket machine would speed things up so much more. The problem that often comes up is people who turn up wanting to do Advance fares bookings, but take forever doing them. It can take up to 20 minutes to get a ticket in Hereford quite often. I have to queue up when I need a ticket as the machines do not have a New Deal photocard option on them. So it's quite annoying!

Whether the scheme will also apply to ATW up in this neck of the woods is another matter, but why LM feel the need to extend the Penalty Fares scheme right out to this extremity of the network is beyond me.

 

[nedchester]

Maybe you should try walking out of shops without paying because you don't have time to queue. See what happens.

That's a different matter and can't be compared to the travel example.

For example you turn up at a station 10 minutes before departure (not unreasonable) and the three people in front are booking a selection of 'advance' tickets.

Person boards the train without a ticket and goes straight to the guard and asks for a ticket. Guard either charges penalty fare or full fare. I think it's not unreasonable for the passenger to be offered the full range of tickets but often guards are not allowed to use discretion.

 

[krus_aragon]

Whether the scheme will also apply to ATW up in this neck of the woods is another matter, but why LM feel the need to extend the Penalty Fares scheme right out to this extremity of the network is beyond me.

I doubt it: Chester has penalty fares for Merseyrail services to Liverpool, but not Arriva or Northen.

Or rather: I hope not!

 

[the sniper]

In my experience on London Midland, if you can't get a ticket from the station and approach the guard on the platform, asking if you can buy a ticket onboard, they're always happy to oblige. They ask you to knock on the cab door once the train gets going or tell you to sit at the back and they'll come to you. I even had this when ticket revenue inspectors have been on the actual train once, though they did see me talk to the guard before I got on so probably knew I was well intentioned.

 

[mumrar]

For example you turn up at a station 10 minutes before departure (not unreasonable) and the three people in front are booking a selection of 'advance' tickets.

In this scenario it would not be unreasonable to point out to the others in the queue that you need to travel on the next specific train, and your ticket will take a few seconds to purchase. Politeness gets you along way. Standing there tutting and eyeing your wristwatch ina very British manner will not

 

[yorkie]

Maybe you should try walking out of shops without paying because you don't have time to queue. See what happens.

what a bizarre comparison!

do shops require you to pay for shopping before entering the aisles? i think not!

The OP was clearly not suggesting anything comparable with your statement, which is correct but not comparable.

 

[ukrob]

what a bizarre comparison!

do shops require you to pay for shopping before entering the aisles? i think not!

The OP was clearly not suggesting anything comparable with your statement, which is correct but not comparable.

Not really. It was a flippant reply to the following quote:

The idea that you punish a passenger who doesn't have time to queue

 

[eos]

In my experience on London Midland, if you can't get a ticket from the station and approach the guard on the platform, asking if you can buy a ticket onboard, they're always happy to oblige. They ask you to knock on the cab door once the train gets going or tell you to sit at the back and they'll come to you. I even had this when ticket revenue inspectors have been on the actual train once, though they did see me talk to the guard before I got on so probably knew I was well intentioned.

Try that with a West Midlands Day Ranger or Daytripper , when the booking office is closed. The new ticket machines aren't interested , the old machines don't understand, the conductors ticket machine isn't programmed and most of the permit to travel fares machines have been ripped. I asked the conductor last week in that situation, and asked if I could travel into Birmingham and get one there - no chance , I would get chinged a penalty fare , or I could buy a full price single into Brum, but it would not be credited to the purchase of a Day Ranger...LM are looking into it, and a call back with a result was arranged for today- Needless to say , It didn't happen either..

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to get away with that, eos. However they will try it on (as most TOCs do). If LM do not provide a satisfactory response, you could try Passenger Focus (although they're pretty useless when it gets to anything complicated sadly), or you could contact ATOC, but unfortunately it's a big battle to get to talk to anyone knowledgable/helpful at ATOC.

 

[nedchester]

I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to get away with that, eos. However they will try it on (as most TOCs do). If LM do not provide a satisfactory response, you could try Passenger Focus (although they're pretty useless when it gets to anything complicated sadly), or you could contact ATOC, but unfortunately it's a big battle to get to talk to anyone knowledgable/helpful at ATOC.

From NCoC

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because
the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start
your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel
that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is
reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these
circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had
bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will
be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

So they HAVE to reduce the price of the ranger by the fare paid.

 

[the sniper]

Try that with a West Midlands Day Ranger or Daytripper , when the booking office is closed.

Yeah, I meant to say they'd only sell you a full fare single or return, I assumed due to the limits of their equipment.

Your situation certainly shows up the flaws in the system, the only solution I could see would be riding without a ticket to the next station and buying the Ranger or Daytripper there, though that'd be pretty inconvenient for you and would rely on the faith and cooperation of the guard.

 

[TEW]

Rangers can be issued on Avantix Machines, most staff however do not know how. It is accessed through the Secondary Services option from the menu, with Rover Enquiry then selected. Even once on that menu tickets are hard to find due to the often cryptic names and codes they are given.

 

[LondonLarry]

In my experience on London Midland, if you can't get a ticket from the station and approach the guard on the platform, asking if you can buy a ticket onboard, they're always happy to oblige. They ask you to knock on the cab door once the train gets going or tell you to sit at the back and they'll come to you. I even had this when ticket revenue inspectors have been on the actual train once, though they did see me talk to the guard before I got on so probably knew I was well intentioned.

London Midland staff rarely have Avantix on their London services and rarely do ticket checks. I've never seen revenue protection working a train or at Euston so wonder if they actually bother to enforce Penalty Fares on their network...

 

[jon0844]

Maybe you should try walking out of shops without paying because you don't have time to queue. See what happens.

As it happens, I once walked out with a security tag (on a DVD) still attached and set off the alarm. Carried on walking with a security guard chasing behind - who stopped me.

He asked me to come back in, and I said no as I was in a rush. I knew I'd paid.. so he mumbled a bit, then let me carry on!!

Security guards generally spot suspicious activity and then follow them via CCTV or plain-clothed staff - so if they do a runner, they're ready. I've bought shopping and opted to pack the bags I've left in the car, leaving everything loose in the trolley - and never been stopped even though it must look like I've loaded the trolley and walked out. Unless I'd been looking dodgy in the aisles, why would anyone have looked at me?

Anyway - to cut a long story short - I reckon if you loaded a trolley and walked out, you'd quite probably get away with it. I think that would work more successfully, more times, than trying to hide items on your person without CCTV operators spotting you!

London Midland staff rarely have Avantix on their London services and rarely do ticket checks. I've never seen revenue protection working a train or at Euston so wonder if they actually bother to enforce Penalty Fares on their network...

Some TOCs only seem to do checks occasionally as a big sting, presumably thinking it will scare people into buying a ticket all the time. The problem is that such rare checks don't let enough people know they're doing checks, or the penalty fares are still cheaper than the normal fare. Will NR be upping its penalty fare to £50, like London?

 

[LondonLarry]

Some TOCs only seem to do checks occasionally as a big sting, presumably thinking it will scare people into buying a ticket all the time. The problem is that such rare checks don't let enough people know they're doing checks, or the penalty fares are still cheaper than the normal fare. Will NR be upping its penalty fare to £50, like London?

I've overheard a conversation some LM revenue staff were having about certain trains into London... They have an issue with people boarding with Oyster PAYG from stations they're not valid from. They don't bother PFing people as they'd be there all morning! If the train comes into one of the suburban platforms (with the ticket gates) the person will be charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey which is far cheaper than the Peak ticket cost.

 

[gordonthemoron]

think yourself lucky, DB charge €40 for anyone who gets on a train without a ticket.

mind the guards are noway near as arsey as UK ones if you have the wrong ticket and are unlikely to excess you

 

[jon0844]

I've overheard a conversation some LM revenue staff were having about certain trains into London... They have an issue with people boarding with Oyster PAYG from stations they're not valid from. They don't bother PFing people as they'd be there all morning! If the train comes into one of the suburban platforms (with the ticket gates) the person will be charged the maximum fare for an incomplete journey which is far cheaper than the Peak ticket cost.

I would imagine many people board at King's Cross and do the same, especially seeing the number of people that get 'caught' at Hatfield and assume they can use their Oyster PAYG there to get out (so they must have got on in London with it). However, they'll get a £20 penalty because the station is gated and staff know the score - but be okay if they go to a station that is unmanned.

As you say, the max fare on an Oyster is what, £5? Seems like a bargain.

 

[MKB]

I think some people are so engrained in their antipathy towards fare dodgers, that they cannot see the unfairness in forcing other passengers to miss their train because they didn't get served at the ticket counter/machine in time.

Why not put ticket machines on board trains? I'm sure there's no earthly reason why a compact wall-mounted version couldn't be engineered. Then use the continental system of having passengers cancel their own tickets on board, by inserting them into on-board ticket readers. For breaks of journey, you could use similar devices at station exits to reactivate your ticket for the rest of the journey.

In fact, that system would provide an audit trail on the ticket that would prevent a lot of abuse that happens under the current system on tickets where break of journey is allowed.

Printing your own tickets and tickets sent to mobiles, if properly implemented, also offer some solutions.

 

[jon0844]

Onboard ticket machines would be broken into all the time, and what may work somewhere else isn't always possible here. Blame our society for that. What's more, even if people saw someone smashing a TVM on a train to bits and taking all the cash - they'd do sod all about it.

I think the ability to buy a ticket on the Internet, or your mobile (by SMS, a mobile 'lite' website etc) is probably a more practical solution - and there is indeed work to improve the system from the current shambles that is open to all sorts of abuse. I have used the pay-by-phone service for parking and that works well.

If we ever decided to implement a nationwide smartcard system, like Oyster but a proper standard, that could be used on all forms of public transport, that would also solve most issues - as people would scan in/out on everything and never be without a ticket. Fares would probably have to change, but you could begin to offer discounts for frequent travellers, automatically calculate the lowest cost for any journey (or multiple journeys over a day, week, month etc) and all sorts of clever stuff.

It's naive to think that in 20-30 years, this wouldn't be the case and people will look back and wonder why we stuck it out with paper tickets so long, but I wonder when we'd actually start to move towards such a revolutionary change? (I see part of the problem as being, who actually makes the first move, who pays and how many people will be against it for political/other reasons?)

It wouldn't have to just be a smartcard, as RFID chips will be embedded in mobile phones too. Personally, I'd go with the card as I'd like to keep it separate to my phone for security reasons - and the fact that I change my phone regularly.

In the future, I'd see no reason why the card wouldn't also work abroad too - at least the EU.

 

[A60K]

Onboard ticket purchase is standard, for example, in east Berlin on trams and ODEG trains - I've never seen any vandalism trouble there, and some of the areas are pretty dodgy.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Onboard ticket purchase is standard, for example, in east Berlin on trams and ODEG trains - I've never seen any vandalism trouble there, and some of the areas are pretty dodgy.

also Munich buses & trams, although Munich is in no way dodgy

 

[jon0844]

I've seen machines on trams, but the question is; are the ticket machines broken into all the time at ordinary stations even in the rough areas?

Machines in the UK are broken into, even in the 'nicer' areas.

Maybe the police are more active there, or the punishments are more severe. Here, when a machine is smashed into, I bet the TOC doesn't even bother to report it and has some form of insurance in place - or just bears the cost.

 

[LondonLarry]

I bet the TOC doesn't even bother to report it and has some form of insurance in place - or just bears the cost.

I'm sure they do! A machine accepting cash will cost twice the price of a card only machine to replace. It's not just the cost of the ticket machine, it's all the associated revenue from that machine too. If you have an unstaffed or part staffed station, the ticket machine would take a significant proportion of revenue for that station. If the machine's not there, there's no incentive for people to buy tickets so they won't bother buying one at all.