LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

absolutelymilk

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2015
Messages
1,152
ORR spokesman Simon Belgard told RAIL " We can confirm that we have paused the granting of further authorisations to place Hitachi IEPs in service. The reason for this is the inter-car connectors and the possibility they could be used as a ladder to climb on the vehicle roof "
No Class 800/801 can be used by LNER until newly identified safety issues have been addressed, potentially jeopardising the planned introduction of the fleet this December.
Presumably this won't affect testing?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

gsnedders

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2015
Messages
1,368
I would assume this would do light brake applications regularly to clear the pads and discs of snow. It also may change the WSP characteristics.
It's unlikely to do automatic brake applications, what it's likely to do is engage the friction brakes sooner (potentially entirely in preference to regenerative braking) to keep them in use and free of snow (in combination with regular brake applications).
 

Randomer

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2017
Messages
173
If the ORR think the risk is sufficient to not allow further IEPs into service how can they justify GWR running identical units in passenger service (in areas with OLE which I presume is the real risk factor for climbing)? Seems like a baffling decision to me, either the class is safe to use in service or it isn't. Or the ORR are unwilling to essentially collapse the GWR service despite a known risk.

Unless GWR have deployed some kind of risk control measures that LNER etc. are not doing at this time?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,760
I wonder if we are back to the curse of increased clearances?

Is there a meaningful difference between the minimum clearance between the 'top step' and the wires on the ECML (at historic standards) and the GW (at modern standards)?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
5,653
Location
UK
New RAIL magazine 863 (headline on cover)

ORR suspends approval for LNER IEPs-
yet Great Western IEPs remain in use

ORR spokesman Simon Belgard told RAIL " We can confirm that we have paused the granting of further authorisations to place Hitachi IEPs in service. The reason for this is the inter-car connectors and the possibility they could be used as a ladder to climb on the vehicle roof "
No Class 800/801 can be used by LNER until newly identified safety issues have been addressed, potentially jeopardising the planned introduction of the fleet this December.
Sounds like a load of rubbish to me!
Surely if it was a problem, then it would have been picked up last year when the GWR 800s enterered service.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Somerset
LNER driver training still on going
Surely the alleged risk is not to passengers on board the trains, but to foolish persons on the platform who might climb atop the train and either fall off, strike a bridge, or be blown up by the overhead.
In that case a train empty of passengers but running for driver training would seem to present a similar risk to such foolish persons.

Although I do not think much of the GWR IETs, for reasons given elsewhere, this objection seems ridiculous.
 

superkev

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2015
Messages
2,238
Location
west yorkshire
New RAIL magazine 863 (headline on cover)

ORR suspends approval for LNER IEPs-
yet Great Western IEPs remain in use

ORR spokesman Simon Belgard told RAIL " We can confirm that we have paused the granting of further authorisations to place Hitachi IEPs in service. The reason for this is the inter-car connectors and the possibility they could be used as a ladder to climb on the vehicle roof "
No Class 800/801 can be used by LNER until newly identified safety issues have been addressed, potentially jeopardising the planned introduction of the fleet this December.
Someone trying to justify their job me thinks. Something I learnt many years ago was to always leave a few minor issues for people doing checks to find as it justified there existence.
Perhaps with us seemingly heading for 3rd world travelling access to the roof could be most useful.
K
 

twpsaesneg

Member
Joined
21 Jul 2009
Messages
353
I wonder if we are back to the curse of increased clearances?

Is there a meaningful difference between the minimum clearance between the 'top step' and the wires on the ECML (at historic standards) and the GW (at modern standards)?
In stations, yes. Generally most if not all newly wired stations will be designed to ~4750mm wire height, we never used to be constrained by that - normal minimum of 4165mm could be used if necessary.
However, if there is something deemed "climbable" on the IEP's it wouldn't make any difference.

I would have thought whatever it is that the ORR have identified can be removed / screened to stop access hopefully reasonably easily.
 

broadgage

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2012
Messages
1,061
Location
Somerset
Does anyone know what part of an IET has been deemed to be climbable ?
Having a good look at one, the only climbable feature that I can see are the numerous power cables and air hoses that link one vehicle to the next, It does not look easy to alter the design to render climbing harder.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
22,493
Does anyone know what part of an IET has been deemed to be climbable ?
Having a good look at one, the only climbable feature that I can see are the numerous power cables and air hoses that link one vehicle to the next, It does not look easy to alter the design to render climbing harder.
That’s the only area the earlier quote (in post 39) mentions.
 

deltic08

On Moderation
Joined
26 Aug 2013
Messages
2,497
Location
Ripon
Does anyone know what part of an IET has been deemed to be climbable ?
Having a good look at one, the only climbable feature that I can see are the numerous power cables and air hoses that link one vehicle to the next, It does not look easy to alter the design to render climbing harder.
Why are we bothering with this at this stage? It should have been picked up much earlier at the design stage.

If any idiot tries to gain access to the roof by climbing up cables and is electrified, then it is nobody else's fault. Just natural selection.

DB Schenker has been prosecuted recently for allowing a 13 year old youth to climb ontop of a wagon in Tyne Yard which blew off both his legs. It was reported he was 500 yards inside the boundary fence and clearly was trespassing. He was where he shouldn't have been and now some one else has been blamed for his own misdemeaner. He should be grateful he wasn't killed. Typical British attitude.
 

neontrix

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2017
Messages
31
If the cable 'ladder' between cars is genuinely dangerous, than all IEP's should be stopped from running. Like others have said, this seems like someone justifying their job's existence.
 

neontrix

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2017
Messages
31
Looking at this image, the gangways between cars seem much wider. I suppose the thinking is that you could probably actually climb up, between the two cars. Could it be solved by fixing some mesh or net between the cables so that you can't climb up it?
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
846
Meh...

Part of me thinks what is the difference between this and jumping off an overhead bridge onto the roof of an electric train? It happens. We need to start prioritising people using common sense over the threat of litigation.

 

quantinghome

Member
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Messages
1,022
From the railnews site:

A spokesman explained: ‘The reason is the connectors and the possibility they could be used as a ladder to climb on the roof. Hitachi made some modifications before they entered service with GWR. We are writing to the company to ask for further controls.’

It's not clear to me whether the 'further controls' are controls applied by GWR which have not been applied on LNER, or additional controls over and above what GWR have applied. Either way it doesn't sound like something ORR have just dreamed up.

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2018/10/10-december-launch-for-ecml-azumas.html
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
5,715
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
How do the 80x compare to this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/manofyorkshire/7020844563
Surely such a worthwhile proposal to ensure our health and safety should be made retrospective? :rolleyes:
Looking at the gap between the 390 and the 800s, I can understand why there might be some concern. The 390 has London Underground style "fins" (admittedly for aerodynamics) making the gap closer together and covering the cable plug sockets. Those cables also look like they are just plugged into the next coach and could be undone either with some force. i.e by stepping on on it or giving it a good tug, whereas the 800s cables appear to be more securely held in. The gap is also considerably wider as well.

The sad fact is, having witnessed a pair of idiots climb on top of a moving freight waggon and nearly get themselves zapped by the 25KV above them, I can understand why the ORR have raised this concern. Given that you've also got the bus bar running over the top of the corridor, you really don't have to reach the roof before your at risk of being zapped by some considerable voltage.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
4,705
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Someone trying to justify their job me thinks. Something I learnt many years ago was to always leave a few minor issues for people doing checks to find as it justified there existence.
Perhaps with us seemingly heading for 3rd world travelling access to the roof could be most useful.
K
Reading some of the subsequent posts to yours, I think you've summed it up nicely.

Looking at the gap between the 390 and the 800s, I can understand why there might be some concern. The 390 has London Underground style "fins" (admittedly for aerodynamics) making the gap closer together and covering the cable plug sockets. Those cables also look like they are just plugged into the next coach and could be undone either with some force. i.e by stepping on on it or giving it a good tug, whereas the 800s cables appear to be more securely held in. The gap is also considerably wider as well.

The sad fact is, having witnessed a pair of idiots climb on top of a moving freight waggon and nearly get themselves zapped by the 25KV above them, I can understand why the ORR have raised this concern. Given that you've also got the bus bar running over the top of the corridor, you really don't have to reach the roof before your at risk of being zapped by some considerable voltage.
If the train manufacturers / TOCs / DfT / ORR all tried to mitigate for every action by every idiot who thinks they are bulletproof, no trains would ever leave the depots again. It would however be interesting to know what modifications GWR made to their 800s that satisfied ORR.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,530
Location
Macclesfield
It's not clear to me whether the 'further controls' are controls applied by GWR which have not been applied on LNER, or additional controls over and above what GWR have applied. Either way it doesn't sound like something ORR have just dreamed up.

https://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2018/10/10-december-launch-for-ecml-azumas.html
RAIL magazine have explained that further mitigations will have to be applied to the GWR fleet, but they are being permitted to remain in service as the risk is not commensurate with the scale of disruption it would cause if the greater part of a whole fleet were pulled from service:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...ner-ieps-yet-great-western-ieps-remain-in-use
“Hitachi has made some modifications on trains before they entered service with GWR [Great Western Railway]. We are writing to the company to ask for further controls to be put in place.”
A RAIL source explained that the GWR fleet will need the modifications, and that discussions have taken place regarding what is needed, but that the trains can continue running because the ORR is trying to mitigate the risk.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
14,043
Location
West of Andover
The ORR does make a bit of sense, as an idiot could climb on those cables between the carriages to reach the roof, they look strong enough to be able to support the weight of said idiot.
 

corsaVXR

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2007
Messages
79
The ORR does make a bit of sense, as an idiot could climb on those cables between the carriages to reach the roof, they look strong enough to be able to support the weight of said idiot.
My expectation is that if you have cables like that, where a climb risk is determined, then the cables should only able to support a small downwards load (say 10 kilos) before the connector detaches.

Of course, that would lead to the climber ending up under the wheels, but at least that death doesn't smell as bad.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
14,043
Location
West of Andover
Doesn't the Far North line use RETB? If so then I find it extremely unlikely that LNER will send an 800 to Thurso as they aren't fitted with RETB
Isn't there portable RETB equipment which can be fitted within the cab? (i.e. when you get Fort William bound freight services, or other charter services north of Inverness)
 

DanNCL

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
1,046
Location
County Durham
Isn't there portable RETB equipment which can be fitted within the cab? (i.e. when you get Fort William bound freight services, or other charter services north of Inverness)
Didn't know about that. In that case it probably would be possible to send an 800 up to Thurso, but it's very unlikely to happen.
 

Top