LNER Azuma (Class 800/801)

[Failed Unit]

We will see. I thought Harrogate could take full azumas as a couple of diagrams are booked for them.

I see the Hull - London is 5 coaches. The Newark passengers advised to wait for next train.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder, when they say there are “no plans” for splitting and joining at Leeds, they really mean “no plans yet”. What about when the full eventual timetable is in place, with a third train to Leeds via Hambledon, might that use 5 cars? When there are 3 tph to Newcastle, and 2 tph to Edinburgh every hour, will they all be 9 or 10 car?

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe this is another case of the DfT specifying things without actually asking operators what they want. My understanding is that in the grand DfT plan the intention was that there would be a lot of splitting and joining at Leeds. I.e. ten cars to Leeds from London with five carrying on to wherever. But in the mean time LNER appear to have decided that they're not up for that sort of thing thank you very much (indeed I'm sure I recall a piece of Modern Railways where David Horne or someone similar said as much).

Now whether that's always going to be the case I'm not sure but I can certainly see why LNER would be reluctant as it certainly introduces performance risk to their timetable! Perhaps once their full fleet is introduced and bedded in they might start to do it but during the introduction I can see the argument for not doing it in service unless there is time and space to do so (i.e. when they split out a set at Kings Cross to go off to Lincoln mid-morning between services).

I see the Hull - London is 5 coaches.

That'll be down to 800109 having an argument with an HST a few weeks ago. They're still down a bi-mode set at the moment as a result.

Are they going to split it at Leeds or lock one set out of use from LDS to HGT to save staff?

If they're joining the front set from Kings Cross to Leeds that would suggest a set locked out. They'll be at the rear from Leeds to Harrogate so would require moving the unit that's not being set to Harrogate before the service train can depart!

 

[westv]

That'll be down to 800109 having an argument with an HST a few weeks ago. They're still down a bi-mode set at the moment as a result.

I was talking to one of the 1st class catering crew yesterday morning on the service from Hull and he said it was possible the 5 coach switch might be permanent. What a crazy idea!

 

[Failed Unit]

I was talking to one of the 1st class catering crew yesterday morning on the service from Hull and he said it was possible the 5 coach switch might be permanent. What a crazy idea!

that is strange. I would have expected the Lincoln service to be a better candidate for that. At least they can return it as the 1006.

 

[PomWombat]

I made my first Leeds - Harrogate commute on the Azuma last night, sitting in the middle of coach C of a 5 car (not sure if there was a second 5 car leading it). There was some engine noise and vibration, but very little compared to the usual 170.

Reservations were off.

 

[westv]

that is strange. I would have expected the Lincoln service to be a better candidate for that. At least they can return it as the 1006.

And what is even more annoying is that it looks like the only Monday morning service into London in February where there are currently no AP tickets available.

 

[Marton]

If they're joining the front set from Kings Cross to Leeds that would suggest a set locked out. They'll be at the rear from Leeds to Harrogate so would require moving the unit that's not being set to Harrogate before the service train can depart!

You assume someone in London knows that Harrogate is “behind” Leeds not further on the line.

 

[Railperf]

First Azuma trip today, Aberdeen to Kings Cross. Overall impressed; the seats no worse than the 'Mallard' on the HST and possibly a little better given there seems to be more legroom (I always thought the Mallard seats were poor anyway). Acceleration seemed sprightly with lost time made up before Edinburgh. Noise not particularly intrusive on diesel. Compared to the HST losing the rattling from the gang ways and snatching during acceleration and braking makes the environment better overall.
It's a shame to lose the natural light from the toilets and, as ever with modern stock, the wash hand basin is too small leading to water on the floor.

The schedules are pretty easy - even a hard driven 90mph Class 158 can just about keep time on the Aberdeen to Dundee section. Dundee to Edinburgh is a 70 to 80mph railway, so even the modest Azuma acceleration in diesel mode is enough to traverse that section and not be embarrassed by Class 170's.
The seats don't look as comfy as 'mallard' HSt seats, but i had no problems sitting on an Azuma from London to Edinburgh. To be honest - on any train journey that length - there isn't a seat that comfy - but then again a walk to the bar or the loo is a necessity at some point in 4.5 hrs.

 

[Clansman]

Must admit I've bought into the critiques especially after sampling GWR's sets a year ago. Had an Azuma rock up on the Stirling terminator and boarded at York. I must say the seats are hard but are no problem at all. If anything it was comfier than the mallard and certainly the material used on them makes them far better than the atrocity on GWR's ones.

The only critique I have of them is the classic MU tight interior feeling, as well as the modular design of them which really lacks the specialisation that goes a long way to making it an IC experience (the buffet design is pathetic for example). Few other slight mods could be done to make them even better but they're somewhat trivial (uncontoured single tables in First class driving the regulars ballistic!)

Overall it has its pros and cons, however what's certain is that the classic Intercity quality is dying in the UK and we are adapting to ever more modular and efficient ways of travelling centred around cost, capacity, and performance. More European. The design of the IEPs prove this. Not that it's a bad thing, but it's certainly an end of what we up until now consider to be Intercity.

 

[deltic08]

We will see. I thought Harrogate could take full azumas as a couple of diagrams are booked for them.

Harrogate platforms in current use can barely take a 2+8 HST. One power car is usually off the platform so the rear power car is behind the starter at the Leeds end on platform 1 to reverse back to Leeds without having to shunt over to 3. The starter signal is about a coach length in from the Leeds end of platform 1. The starter signal at the other end of platform 1 is usually pulled off to allow the leading power car and 1st coach to pass fully before stopping. This is a throw back to olden days when long loco hauled through trains on platform 1 continued to Ripon and Northallerton with the rear coaches hanging off the platform even though platform 1 was about half a coach length longer before reconstruction of the station in 1966. This allowed Copthall Tower to be built partly over this platform. It destroyed the beautiful nature of the station with its Victorian wrought ironwork canopies and turned it into a concrete monstrosity. I digress.
The first Azuma departing Harrogate on Sunday morning was from platform 3. This platform could easily take 2+8 but was shortened probably 10 years ago by moving the starter signal back from the platform end by two coach lengths to convert the platform into additional parking. Consequently the 2x5 sets used on Sunday had 2 coaches on the rear set off the platform. The train stood for about 5 minutes after entering the platform before the doors were unlocked. There were quite a few passengers waiting in the freezing cold with a raw wind with no protection as there isn't a canopy as that was removed in stages between 1972 and 1992. Good job it wasn't raining or snowing.
No sooner had everyone boarded and settled down for a 3-hour journey than the conductor moved everyone out of the rear set into the leading set and locked it out of use even though some had reservations in that set. This included a group of American tourists who were not pleased and remonstrated with the conductor. I asked why he had unlocked the set in the first instance only to move everybody out and lock it before departure and was virtually ignored. I suspect crewing problems with it being a Sunday. Not very good customer relations for LNER though.

 

[Furrball]

Doing my first Azuma first class journey.

First impression....what's with the table lag placing?

I am not tall but withe the seat reclined and sitting legs back my knee strikes the leg.

Sitting with legs outstretched I cannot have my leg straight. In a vaguely normal position my leg is pressed against the table leg

 

[westv]

Doing my first Azuma first class journey.

First impression....what's with the table lag placing?

I am not tall but withe the seat reclined and sitting legs back my knee strikes the leg.

Sitting with legs outstretched I cannot have my leg straight. In a vaguely normal position my leg is pressed against the table leg

Single seat? I stretch my legs out straight ahead of me.

 

[ChilternTurbo]

I've now done around six trips on Azumas - although I have to admit these were in first class. Anyway, it did get me thinking about when the MK.4 stock was introduced to the East Coast Mainline and how spartan (albeit in standard class) the interiors looked to me. I feel the same way about the Azumas as I initially did about the Mk.4 stock. Personally, I only really liked a Mk.4s after the Mallard refurbishments in the early 00's. The VTEC mini refurbishment was also particularly effective in my opinion. Perhaps the Azumas may get a Mallard style refurbishment at some point in the future? Ever the optimist...

 

[ZL exile]

I hope not the Mark 4 stock was much more comfortable before the horrible mallard refurb, getting to quite like the Azuma sets now.

 

[Marton]

I’m a mallard liker too.

Also the decent number of paired seats on the single side.

The crossover on MkIV in first also helps the visual appearance as it breaks up the long line.

 

[Andyh82]

Sorry to bring this up again, as I have not seen a definitive answer on this. But why were the 5-car electrics ordered?

I understand no plans exist to drop 5 coaches off at Leeds and continue to Bradford. Likewise no plans exist to split a train and have front 5 Hull rear 5 Leeds for example.

Read through the threads and pretty much all state they will operate in pairs. Capacity is about the same as 9 car so struggling to see the point. On 0555 London - Leeds. It probably could take 5 cars but again not aware of any plans to run them solo at quieter times. (This train may fill up after Doncaster)

just seems to give passengers a worse experience for no benefits to LNER.

Indeed, why must the introduction of pretty much anything always have a layer of nonsense overlayed, whether it’s new stock, new timetables, whatever.

All they’ve done is lumbered the east coast mainline operator with doubled onboard crewing costs for the next 30 years.

Once LNER decided not to join and detach units, it’s a shame, their order couldn’t have been amended.

 

[Failed Unit]

Indeed, why must the introduction of pretty much anything always have a layer of nonsense overlayed, whether it’s new stock, new timetables, whatever.

All they’ve done is lumbered the east coast mainline operator with doubled onboard crewing costs for the next 30 years.

Once LNER decided not to join and detach units, it’s a shame, their order couldn’t have been amended.

I wonder if it is possible to extend them? They are talking about extra trains for the 2021 timetable. Perhaps a better solution is to make the 5 cars 9 cars.

 

[3973EXL]

5Q56/X66 Doncaster - Acton - Eastleigh
66726 801220

 

[modernrail]

I wonder if it is possible to extend them? They are talking about extra trains for the 2021 timetable. Perhaps a better solution is to make the 5 cars 9 cars.

That would seem the obvious way to reverse out of this latest DfT screw up, if possible. Maybe not all 5 car sets but a good number of them.

Its funny, fixed formations on commuter stock appears to be causing problems whereas non-fixed is more of a problem on long distance routes.

 

[Speed43125]

Its funny, fixed formations on commuter stock appears to be causing problems whereas non-fixed is more of a problem on long distance routes.

I'd assume thats as on commuter stock you just need the correct number of carriages, whereas Long distance trains need a number of staff per set to work trolley etc.
That said, the new 701s for example, are going to largely be fixed form 10-car trains. So it's not universal, I suppose commuter stock needs to be more flexible to changes in demand (and repairs given the higher stresses they encounter) compared to long distance trains which is largely low-stress running with far less demand fluctuation.

 

[JonathanH]

800204 operated the 1135 Kings Cross to Harrogate on its own today. LNER told passengers for Stevenage and Grantham to wait for the 1206 to Lincoln so those stops became pick up only.

800208 on the 1335 Kings Cross to Harrogate

800210 on the 1136 Harrogate to Kings Cross

There do seem to be a few Leeds services operating as 5-car trains, possibly because of the loss of 800109.

Surely it is better to run these as 800/2+801/1 and split at Leeds than as a single 5-car unit.

 

[Railperf]

Ticket restrictions lifted on LNER today due to cancellations and short forms. Should the HST's have really gone off lease last weekend?

 

[absolutelymilk]

How many 800s and 801s have now been delivered to LNER?

 

[JonathanH]

How many 800s and 801s have now been delivered to LNER?

In service I think are the following 18 full sets and 18 half sets.

800102-800113 (12)
801101-6/8-10/2 (10)
800201/3-6/8-10 (8)
801203/5/7/9/11/3 (6)

 

[800001]

In service I think are the following 18 full sets and 18 half sets.

800102-800113 (12)
801101-6/8-10/2 (10)
800201/3-6/8-10 (8)
801203/5/7/9/11/3 (6)

800202 and 800207 accepted by Lner yesterday.

 

[jimm]

Ticket restrictions lifted on LNER today due to cancellations and short forms. Should the HST's have really gone off lease last weekend?

LNER, same as GWR before it, does what it is told by the DfT - which is one (nine-car or 2x5 80x) in, one (91+Mk4s or HST) out. End of discussion.

 

[JonathanH]

LNER, same as GWR before it, does what it is told by the DfT - which is one (nine-car or 2x5 80x) in, one (91+Mk4s or HST) out. End of discussion.

Has a 91+Mk4 set been retained as cover for 800109 (not that they can exactly cover) or is the cover for 800109 running three London to Harrogate workings with single 5-car units?

 

[800001]

Has a 91+Mk4 set been retained as cover for 800109 (not that they can exactly cover) or is the cover for 800109 running three London to Harrogate workings with single 5-car units?

LNER have brought back into service 3 x Mk4 sets that were stored, due to issues with fleet numbers, and a couple more are being held a bit longer until they go off lease.

Today for example 23 mk4s are diagrammed instead of 21.

 

[Class455]

Looks like there's another delivery move tomorrow, not sure if this will be an LNER Azuma or TPE 802 as it continues on to Doncaster Carr IEP Depot
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06027/2019-12-23/detailed
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K06026/2019-12-23/detailed