LNER Class 91/Mk4 service status/withdrawals/2021 refurbishment

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To each their own - personally it’s an improvement from the VTEC livery it previously carried IMHO.

I think it makes the VTEC livery look exceptionally modern

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think it makes the VTEC livery look exceptionally modern

Good news for TfW then, they’ve got a free modern livery!

 

[Wolfie]

Absolutely horrendous. Not only does it look exceptionally dated, it looks like it was a hand me down from British Rail than LNER couldn’t be bothered to repaint so stuck some maroon vinyls and overside logos on.

Also, the stretch of maroon along the side and the stretch of black by the cab window and over the cab both clash and should be the same colour ideally.

I don’t like it at all. I won’t moan though, as the inside will still be pleasant.

Agreed. A bad pistache of a classic livery doubtless adored by nostalgic folk of a certain vintage. Looks like it cost all of 5p.

 

[humbersidejim]

I love it - but perhaps that speaks more of me reaching a certain age, and revelling in nostalgia.

The fact is that this is a 30+ year old train, and I think for that reason it is a befitting livery for the twilight years of the fleet.

It will most likely be their final repaint.

 

[Non Multi]

It's the type of livery that we got plenty of at the start of Privatisation, being a slightly modified version of a BR Sector colour scheme.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's the type of livery that we got plenty of at the start of Privatisation, being a slightly modified version of a BR Sector colour scheme.

Yes, and it got plenty of it because it was a cheap and minimal effort way of differentiating from BR.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. A bad pistache of a classic livery doubtless adored by nostalgic folk of a certain vintage. Looks like it cost all of 5p.

It's real paint for a change. Better than another "trendy" vinyl.

 

[Wolfie]

It's real paint for a change. Better than another "trendy" vinyl.

Whoopie doo....

 

[43096]

Whoopie doo....

There's a big difference: paint protects the bodyshell (which is its primary purpose), vinyl does the opposite (water gets trapped behind the vinyl and corrodes the body).

 

[yorksrob]

Whoopie doo....

Well, it is better for the condition of the train if you actually paint them once in a while.

Just sayin

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think the reason things like this irritate me is - where does the money come from?

 

[Wolfie]

There's a big difference: paint protects the bodyshell (which is its primary purpose), vinyl does the opposite (water gets trapped behind the vinyl and corrodes the body).

Ok, that makes sense TY. An obvious question: how long are the 91/Mk4s staying in service?

 

[YorksLad12]

I quite like it, though I would have made the red stripe burgundy/Oxblood/whatever as well.

For a livery that will only last a few years it makes sense not to go overboard. And... it's not the deathly white we get on other former franchises

 

[skyhigh]

I think the reason things like this irritate me is - where does the money come from?

The vinyls were life expired so something had to be done - they haven't been touched for almost 7 years. It's not a case of splashing the cash or rebranding unnecessarily.

 

[800001]

I think the reason things like this irritate me is - where does the money come from?

It is being painted as part of the scheduled maintenance of the loco and set.

 

[HarryL]

It's real paint for a change. Better than another "trendy" vinyl.

Weren't Virgin made to use vinyl instead of paint by the DfT? I could be wrong about it but I recall something about the DfT wanting the trains to have the ability to return to East Coast grey if Virgin failed. Not that they did return to it of course as they patched it all up with filler before applying said vinyls.

 

[43102EMR]

Weren't Virgin made to use vinyl instead of paint by the DfT? I could be wrong about it but I recall something about the DfT wanting the trains to have the ability to return to East Coast grey if Virgin failed. Not that they did return to it of course as they patched it all up with filler before applying said vinyls.

It was deemed as there being no point in painting them at the time as along with the HSTs, the 91s/Mk4s were all expected to go when the Azumas were introduced. It was only later decided by VTEC (later LNER) to retain a few sets for use on extra paths on the ECML.

 

[XAM2175]

The point is though, Azumas have curved bodies so a curved livery design works well. The 91 is more angular so the angles here look better (to my eye at least). Liveries should work with the body, not against.

Agreed. The 91's body was almost designed with Swallow in mind - although Swallow looks good on anything. Every other livery carried by the 91s has only succeeded in making the loco look very, very dated - much more so than than its contemporary Class 90 cousins.

Exactly this - and by the same measure, I wouldn't put this livery on an Azuma.

Agreed. A bad pistache of a classic livery doubtless adored by nostalgic folk of a certain vintage. Looks like it cost all of 5p.

It's funny; I usually see this criticism being directed at the sort of people who think that Swallow is too modern

 

[Helvellyn]

They've taken a livery that suited the Class 91 and Mark 4s, updated it to use their house colours (Probably cheaper than a whole new livery design) and a applied it to a fleet that needed repainting that is also in it's twilight.

The oxblood window bands might look odd, but the Azuma style treatment with vinyls wouldn't work (IMHO) because the window frames would be solid oxblood against a patterned vinyl band.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Ha, when your current employer is painting your new employers trains....

Had some advance notice this was happening from a friend at the Doncaster site. Always loved the traditional IC livery. Pitty Im not likely to drive them...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's funny; I usually see this criticism being directed at the sort of people who think that Swallow is too modern

I don’t see how anyone could think that.
One set would have been a nice gesture but to put them all into a (maroonised) livery from the 80s/90s and slap the LNER logo on top is really quite baffling and is sure to make them look even older when next to the Azumas.

Every other livery carried by the 91s has only succeeded in making the loco look very, very dated - much more so than than its contemporary Class 90 cousins.

I personally thought they looked rather nice in East Coast silver, which seemed to suit them quite well, but then they were used by EC alongside older and more tired looking HSTs which may have helped them look more modern by comparison. A 225 always looked fresh and contemporary next to a HST. Now in 2022, seeing a lone 225 surrounded by Azumas in Kings Cross, by contrast, the Azumas really do make it look past it, and I say that sadly as I’m fond of the 91s.

Unfortunately, as this new livery is far more similar to the Azumas’ than the VTEC one was, I fear they’ll look even more elderly alongside them. That and the fact they’ll be sat in a harrowing throwback coat from the 80s!

 

[ricj]

I can't believe some people are actually getting annoyed at this - personally it gives me a warm glow inside. Not just because of the nostalgia-centric side of me (these trains have a special place in my heart as I was caught right in the epicentre of the excitement as a 7 year old RailRiders member when they started appearing on the network) but mainly because it's just so unexpected and is the equivalent of someone on their death-bed being given a miraculous new lease of life. Seeing the remaining sets being run down to the state they were in, looking old, tired and completely neglected seemed to signal that the end was just around the corner... The fact LNER sees fit to spend money on them to the extent that they're being given a full, brand new paint job gives me hope that they're not just going to be around a while longer but they're going out in style instead of decaying into obscurity.

My own thoughts on the work itself is that I agree it looks really tardy to see such a beautiful, shiny loco sitting on filthy bogies and it is a shame the front valance isn't painted white but apart from that I love it. Oh and I can't help wondering what it would've looked like if they'd used the classic Intercity font for the LNER logo and put a swallow next to it just to complete the look!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel like the intercity ends are unnecessary. And make it look so dated.

They could have brought the maroon and red stripes forward and finished it off with a curve like the Azumas

The train isn't curved, so that would look bad. Curves on a non curved body was one reason the VTEC livery was awful.

That sweep-up at the end of an Azuma is one of the few bits of that livery I don't like, it looks awkward.

I think it makes the VTEC livery look exceptionally modern

The VTEC livery looks like a faded old base model red car. It is probably my least favourite UK livery. Looks cheap and nasty, definitely not Stenning's finest hour. Even worse on TfW where they have paired it with the DVT and loco in a different livery, so it all looks like a depot scratch set of whatever cobbled together old junk they could find.

This on the other hand looks dated, but somehow classy.

 

[MarkWiles]

I always thought the way the IC Swallow livery was applied to the 91s was a bit too fussy, but compared to GNER - a suburban EMU with a red girdle - or ghost grey and nauseating pink, or the Virgin Cola branding, it did look like something you'd want to ride on, rather than call for an exorcist or have a swig of sugar based fizzy burps from. GNER was dull, East Coast grey was just miserable and vile, and the Virgin Cola livery uninspired - and I too am amazed it came from Best Impressions.

However, surely the most important things from this launch are (1) LNER are keeping some 91 and Mk4 sets as crowd busters which shows hopefully some sort of customer focus (2) They are painting and refurbing the trains rather than run a ragbag fading train on minimum maintenance schedule, which is what some TOCs would have done and (3) they've managed to get some nice publicity from something they would have had to do anyway, unless they ran the trains right into the ground held together by gaffer tape. More to the point, the normals - who pay to use the trains - rather than the gricers, will notice these are different trains to the Azumas, will probably appreciate the insertion of extra capacity into the service and won't feel they are being made to ride in a clapped out train held together by fading sticky back plastic.

 

[physics34]

Very nice. Very understated how good simple horizontal stripes look on trains. Complicated designs often dont sit well and definately dont work in motion.

 

[alexl92]

The point is though, Azumas have curved bodies so a curved livery design works well. The 91 is more angular so the angles here look better (to my eye at least). Liveries should work with the body, not against.

The livery on the Azumas was designed to be a nod to the A4s. If you look at the photos of one of the Azumas alongside 4468, the space underneath the red stripe is a nod to the valances on the A4. It's clever even if they're still ugly af.

Ok, that makes sense TY. An obvious question: how long are the 91/Mk4s staying in service?

I've heard it's about six more years. 12 locos, 8 coach sets, possible reintroduction to Newcastle - KGX services (though I don't know how that would fit with the service pattern and timings so don't quote me on that).

I don’t see how anyone could think that.
One set would have been a nice gesture but to put them all into a (maroonised) livery from the 80s/90s and slap the LNER logo on top is really quite baffling and is sure to make them look even older when next to the Azumas.

I personally thought they looked rather nice in East Coast silver, which seemed to suit them quite well, but then they were used by EC alongside older and more tired looking HSTs which may have helped them look more modern by comparison. A 225 always looked fresh and contemporary next to a HST. Now in 2022, seeing a lone 225 surrounded by Azumas in Kings Cross, by contrast, the Azumas really do make it look past it, and I say that sadly as I’m fond of the 91s.

Unfortunately, as this new livery is far more similar to the Azumas’ than the VTEC one was, I fear they’ll look even more elderly alongside them. That and the fact they’ll be sat in a harrowing throwback coat from the 80s!

The big problem with East Coast Silver was that it showed up every little imperfection in the body side. At the right angle they almost looked battered! Which is partly why they switched to grey instead (the other reason being that it was a convenient undercoat for the future franchisee).

I actually didn't mind either livery, would have just liked to see it paired with a colour other than Purple, or for Purple to be the dominant rather than accent colour.

The train isn't curved, so that would look bad. Curves on a non curved body was one reason the VTEC livery was awful.

That sweep-up at the end of an Azuma is one of the few bits of that livery I don't like, it looks awkward.



The VTEC livery looks like a faded old base model red car. It is probably my least favourite UK livery. Looks cheap and nasty, definitely not Stenning's finest hour. Even worse on TfW where they have paired it with the DVT and loco in a different livery, so it all looks like a depot scratch set of whatever cobbled together old junk they could find.

This on the other hand looks dated, but somehow classy.

This. It looked awful from day 1. I remember tweeting VTEC on the launch day to say I thought it was awful, and David Horne himself replied to ask why. I said pretty much this - the sweeping ends don't work on these coaches, the shade of red looked faded and dated and the overall design didn't complement the shape of the 91s.

White suits these, not every colour does.

 

[DanNCL]

possible reintroduction to Newcastle - KGX services (though I don't know how that would fit with the service pattern and timings so don't quote me on that).

If reintroduced to Kings Cross - Newcastle services this would be on the new Newcastle terminators planned to be introduced in the May 2023 timetable. There are also a few Sunday services in the current timetable that terminate at Newcaslte

 

[Sorcerer]

I must admit, while it's still better than the current LNER livery on the 800/801s, from the image shown it kind of looks dated in my opinion. It literally looks like tweaked version of the InterCity livery so it shouldn't be surprising that a 1980s style livery looks outdated. Granted the 91s are old trains but honestly I'm just not big on the LNER livery. I love the use of red since that's my favourite colour but it just hasn't been applied very well on any of the stock in my opinion.

 

[Prestige15]

I demand a full GNER livery with the gold letter LNER instead of GNER and the emblem on the coaches saying 'London North Western Railway' instead of 'Great North Eastern Railway' before their retirement.

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[43102EMR]

I demand a full GNER livery with the gold letter LNER instead of GNER and the emblem on the coaches saying 'London North Western Railway' instead of 'Great North Eastern Railway' before their retirement.

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Minus the wrong geographical area, I agree…