LNER compulsory reservations - what happens if you don’t have one?

[DanNCL]

I'd just add my dissatisfaction to the current set-up. I know the majortiy of LNER customers are long-distance travellers for whom reserving a seat will often be a priority, but passengers doing short-hops reamin part of their usesr as well, and as it stands the TVMs are not user-friendly for someone who is showing up at a station and wanting a simple day-return to leave on the next train, and return on a train at whatever time they happen to have finished.

eg the TVM won't sell a ticket for a train departing within 5 minutes. I've found myself making bookings on trains that I have no intention of getting in order to make the TVM sell me a ticket - that's not a good set-up. I can only imagine it putting off more infrequent/less rail-nerdy passengers.

I hope this can be resolved fairly swiftly as passenger numbers are clearly ramping up.

I agree. As was evidenced in the consulatation they ran on the (now ditched) May 2022 timetable change, LNER seem to have forgotten that they don't solely exist as a means of getting people to/from London, and whilst London may well be their largest passenger flow, they do have to cater for the other passenger flows to an acceptable standard too. The issue with the LNER TVMs requiring a train to be selected and for that train to have either a seat or counted place reservation available also stops people from selecting XC services. It means if you want to go from Newcastle to any station North of Morpeth, there are regularly instances where it's completely impossible to get a ticket from the TVM for it, as all of the trains are "sold out". It's less of an issue for Newcastle - York as you can select a TPE service to get the TVM to issue the ticket, but it's still a right pain, and has been putting people off from using the train. Arriva must be loving the amount of extra custom their X15 and X18 buses have been getting out of this!

I should add that the ticket office at Newcastle regularly refuses to issue walk up tickets when there aren't any counted places left free on the specific service that the customer requests, which the customer is often asked to select by the ticket office staff. We know they can issue those tickets, but some of the staff (and I should emphasise that it is only some of them, it's not all of them) frequently refuse. This will not be helping passenger numbers.

A further issue with the LNER set up at Newcastle station, although this has been an issue since the East Coast era, is that there is no facility for those using Pop pay-as-you-go for travel to Heworth or Sunderland to touch in or out, effectively preventing people from using a valid ticket on that journey. Heworth and Sunderland have facilities for passengers to touch in and out when using pay as you go on Northern, it's just Newcastle Central that doesn't.

The 5 minute booking headway is to stop people booking on a train they haven’t a chance of catching remember it’s not just walk up tickets that the TVMs retail.How would you feel if you bought an Advance ticket for a train in 4 minutes time and by the time you got to the platform the doors were closed And your ticket was worthless. The TVMs can’t possibly be all things to all people.

Why do walk up tickets need the same restrictions on them as the advances with regards to the booking headway? Is it really that difficult to set it up in the fares database so that the advance fares simply disappear at the 5 minute deadline, with reservations for those trains with walk ups remaining available? I get that these things can't be changed overnight but I'd have thought there's been enough time by now to implement something like that.

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

If that's an issue then set the deadline for the relevant advance tickets for 10 minutes instead of 5. For those on walk up tickets it's a non-issue as their ticket is valid on the next train, and it's the customer's responsibility to ensure they arrive at the station with sufficient time to catch their train anyway.

 

[Starmill]

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

Why does it matter if I don't quite make the train I prefer if I've bought a ticket that's valid on the next one 20 minutes later?

 

[trebor79]

The 5 minute booking headway is to stop people booking on a train they haven’t a chance of catching remember it’s not just walk up tickets that the TVMs retail.How would you feel if you bought an Advance ticket for a train in 4 minutes time and by the time you got to the platform the doors were closed And your ticket was worthless. The TVMs can’t possibly be all things to all people.

Why do walk up tickets need the same restrictions on them as the advances with regards to the booking headway? Is it really that difficult to set it up in the fares database so that the advance fares simply disappear at the 5 minute deadline, with reservations for those trains with walk ups remaining available? I get that these things can't be changed overnight but I'd have thought there's been enough time by now to implement something like that.

Indeed. All that needs to happen is for the bodge to be removed. A walk-up ticket can then be bought without having to select a specific train. The machine could then *offer* to reserve a seat, if there are some available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

You don't need to guarantee anything. If you sell only walk-up fares, then they can take the next valid train if they miss that one. That's what pretty much everyone who uses a TVM to buy a last minute walk up is going to do, particularly for shorter journeys.

You could even call it "expert mode" on the button if you think it's going to confuse people. And have a popup warning of low chance of a seat on LNER services, perhaps.

They need to be set up for LNER flows as well - the current reservation situation is an utter, utter bodge.

Indeed. All that needs to happen is for the bodge to be removed. A walk-up ticket can then be bought without having to select a specific train. The machine could then *offer* to reserve a seat, if there are some available.

It could even use the existing reservations recommended flag to say "if you choose this train you probably won't get a seat, do you really want to do that"?

Unless doing CR properly as per SNCF, FS etc*, there is really no need to innovate anything at all here. The technology, approach and data structures already exist.

* I have no problem with CR being done properly. I have a problem with a massive bodge (rightly) chucked in quickly for a global pandemic being considered a good long-term approach.

 

[43096]

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

If the TVMs were more intuitive then there would be less of an issue. The new machines take about three times as long to get a ticket than the old ones.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it goes through the rigmarole of having to select a particular train: anyone wanting a specific train only ticket will likely have already booked on the website or app, so the bulk of the use for these is either walk up tickets or ticket on departure collection.

In short the new machines are a massive downgrade on what was used before and are not fit for purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the TVMs were more intuitive then there would be less of an issue. The new machines take about three times as long to get a ticket than the old ones.

I cannot for the life of me understand why it goes through the rigmarole of having to select a particular train: anyone wanting a specific train only ticket will likely have already booked on the website or app, so the bulk of the use for these is either walk up tickets or ticket on departure collection.

In short the new machines are a massive downgrade on what was used before and are not fit for purpose.

With the complexities of the fares system I think it is a UI worth having provided there is an "I know what I want" button to buy a walk up ticket like there is on Chiltern's machines.

As for missing trains, an example of CR done properly is as per SNCF - if you miss your train you go to the "echange minute" machine and exchange your flexible ticket for a different train. That's what I mean by doing CR properly.

But talking of that complexity, one thing that is key is for all TOCs to do things the same way for uniformity - at present LNER, GWR and Avanti do things subtly differently.

Overall, though, the point of a TVM is buying a ticket for the next train, not one later that afternoon. People who want to see which train is quieter/cheaper/whatever will do that sat on their sofa, or if a bit old fashioned go to a booking office in advance.

 

[trebor79]

With the complexities of the fares system I think it is a UI worth having provided there is an "I know what I want" button to buy a walk up ticket like there is on Chiltern's machines.

As for missing trains, an example of CR done properly is as per SNCF - if you miss your train you go to the "echange minute" machine and exchange your flexible ticket for a different train. That's what I mean by doing CR properly.

But talking of that complexity, one thing that is key is for all TOCs to do things the same way for uniformity - at present LNER, GWR and Avanti do things subtly differently.

Overall, though, the point of a TVM is buying a ticket for the next train, not one later that afternoon. People who want to see which train is quieter/cheaper/whatever will do that sat on their sofa, or if a bit old fashioned go to a booking office in advance.

Maybe even bring back a modern version of the old "Quick Fare" machines - which only sold a limited range of walk-up tickets? These days you wouldn't have to be limited to a few dozen destinations. But the functionality of "Destination + ticket type = pay" is quick and simple and there's no reason at all it couldn't be brought in.

 

[cuccir]

The 5 minute booking headway is to stop people booking on a train they haven’t a chance of catching remember it’s not just walk up tickets that the TVMs retail.How would you feel if you bought an Advance ticket for a train in 4 minutes time and by the time you got to the platform the doors were closed And your ticket was worthless. The TVMs can’t possibly be all things to all people.

Then don't sell an Advance ticket for that service on the TVM, but let people just use them to buy Off-Peak or Anytime returns without having to name a train? I don't understand defending removing this capacity from TVMs which is something that they have been offering for as long as they have existed.

At the moment, if I arrive at eg Durham station 5 minutes before a train leaves - where the TVMs on platform 2 are, what, a 10 second walk from the train? - and the next train to depart is an LNER one then (unless I've misunderstood the machine) I can only buy a day return to get onto that train by making a fictious booking for a service I have no intention of catching. While there are undoubtedly reasons behind this, I don't understand how that can viewed as satisfactory, given that I could have done this at any point in the 20 years (or whenver TVMs first appeared) before 2019.

 

[Mainline421]

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

Again all that is needed is warning the user must (quickly) acknowledge, this is actually already the case in other countries I've bought what appeared to be an advance about 2 minutes before, the TVMs displayed a warning but it still sold the ticket. The deadline for advances can set to t-5 (and probably should). I just checked and my tickets today were purchased 4 mins before and I didn't feel rushed at all.

It's bad enough that they already forced me to make a reservation that I knew I'd never use back in May since they don't support a break of journey at all (Preventing other people from buying tickets).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe even bring back a modern version of the old "Quick Fare" machines - which only sold a limited range of walk-up tickets? These days you wouldn't have to be limited to a few dozen destinations. But the functionality of "Destination + ticket type = pay" is quick and simple and there's no reason at all it couldn't be brought in.

It's how the vast majority of TVMs work, including the Chiltern ones which effectively have a "I don't know what I want" button which gives you a planner.

Again all that is needed is warning the user must (quickly) acknowledge, this is actually already the case in other countries I've bought what appeared to be an advance about 2 minutes before, the TVMs displayed a warning but it still sold the ticket. The deadline for advances can set to t-5 (and probably should). I just checked and my tickets today were purchased 4 mins before and I didn't feel rushed at all.

Arriving at a station 5 minutes before the train is a perfectly normal thing to do when making a local journey and intending to use a flexible ticket, because the consequence of a missed train is very low. LNER are perhaps forgetting that they are not only an InterCity TOC but also provide for a large number of local journeys.

 

[trebor79]

Again all that is needed is warning the user must (quickly) acknowledge, this is actually already the case in other countries I've bought what appeared to be an advance about 2 minutes before, the TVMs displayed a warning but it still sold the ticket. The deadline for advances can set to t-5 (and probably should). I just checked and my tickets today were purchased 4 mins before and I didn't feel rushed at all.

It's bad enough that they already forced me to make a reservation that I knew I'd never use back in May since they don't support a break of journey at all (Preventing other people from buying tickets).

Plus 5 minutes is a bit arbitrary anyway. There's no guarantee someone buying a ticket at eg Kings X or Leeds would make it to the platform in 5 minutes.

This whole thing just sounds like it's what a couple of folk working for LNER think ought to work, without having done any UAT, or discussion with anyone really.

So could you guarantee every customer can make the train remember at the larger stations the TVMs are quite some way from departure platforms. There is a very very small number of tickets that you can set up for that option most of our TVMs already have these set up for non LNER flows as these are the majority of tickets they sell.

Can you guarantee 5 minutes is long enough at the larger stations?
How advances for use only on a specific train can be bought on the day anyway? Zero?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus 5 minutes is a bit arbitrary anyway. There's no guarantee someone buying a ticket at eg Kings X or Leeds would make it to the platform in 5 minutes.

And if they know what they are doing there's no guarantee they won't make it in 1 minute. I have done 1 minute at Euston (LNR) before, though admittedly you don't want people legging it across the station like that.

Also, the train might be delayed.

This whole thing just sounds like it's what a couple of folk working for LNER think ought to work, without having done any UAT, or discussion with anyone really.

It does indeed. It doesn't strike me as a particularly good way to experiment on UI design (I mean the UI of the whole operation, not just the TVM).

How advances for use only on a specific train can be bought on the day anyway? Zero?

Some TOCs offer APOD (Advance Purchase on the Day) up to very close to departure.

 

[greyman42]

I should add that the ticket office at Newcastle regularly refuses to issue walk up tickets when there aren't any counted places left free on the specific service that the customer requests, which the customer is often asked to select by the ticket office staff. We know they can issue those tickets, but some of the staff (and I should emphasise that it is only some of them, it's not all of them) frequently refuse. This will not be helping passenger numbers.

Why do staff behave like this? What is in it for them?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I agree. As was evidenced in the consulatation they ran on the (now ditched) May 2022 timetable change, LNER seem to have forgotten that they don't solely exist as a means of getting people to/from London, and whilst London may well be their largest passenger flow, they do have to cater for the other passenger flows to an acceptable standard too. The issue with the LNER TVMs requiring a train to be selected and for that train to have either a seat or counted place reservation available also stops people from selecting XC services. It means if you want to go from Newcastle to any station North of Morpeth, there are regularly instances where it's completely impossible to get a ticket from the TVM for it, as all of the trains are "sold out". It's less of an issue for Newcastle - York as you can select a TPE service to get the TVM to issue the ticket, but it's still a right pain, and has been putting people off from using the train. Arriva must be loving the amount of extra custom their X15 and X18 buses have been getting out of this!

I should add that the ticket office at Newcastle regularly refuses to issue walk up tickets when there aren't any counted places left free on the specific service that the customer requests, which the customer is often asked to select by the ticket office staff. We know they can issue those tickets, but some of the staff (and I should emphasise that it is only some of them, it's not all of them) frequently refuse. This will not be helping passenger numbers.

A further issue with the LNER set up at Newcastle station, although this has been an issue since the East Coast era, is that there is no facility for those using Pop pay-as-you-go for travel to Heworth or Sunderland to touch in or out, effectively preventing people from using a valid ticket on that journey. Heworth and Sunderland have facilities for passengers to touch in and out when using pay as you go on Northern, it's just Newcastle Central that doesn't.


Why do walk up tickets need the same restrictions on them as the advances with regards to the booking headway? Is it really that difficult to set it up in the fares database so that the advance fares simply disappear at the 5 minute deadline, with reservations for those trains with walk ups remaining available? I get that these things can't be changed overnight but I'd have thought there's been enough time by now to implement something like that.


If that's an issue then set the deadline for the relevant advance tickets for 10 minutes instead of 5. For those on walk up tickets it's a non-issue as their ticket is valid on the next train, and it's the customer's responsibility to ensure they arrive at the station with sufficient time to catch their train anyway.

I’ll have a word with the Newcastle Shift Leaders, as for Pop Cards as far as I’m aware the PAYG isn’t valid on National Rail,but I may be wtong. Nobody from Northern has ever asked for it though.

Edit just found this

“You can use Pop PAYG on Metro, on almost all buses in Northumberland, Tyne and Wear, County Durham and the Tees Valley, and on the Shields Ferry.”

No mention of rail

 

[DanNCL]

I’ll have a word with the Newcastle Shift Leaders, as for Pop Cards as far as I’m aware the PAYG isn’t valid on National Rail,but I may be wtong. Nobody from Northern has ever asked for it though.

Edit just found this

“You can use Pop PAYG on Metro, on almost all buses in Northumberland, Tyne and Wear, County Durham and the Tees Valley, and on the Shields Ferry.”

No mention of rail

It's not specifically mentioned as being valid, though given the full interavailability of tickets between Northern and Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland, where any ticket valid for either service is valid on both, Pop PAYG should be accepted on Northern. The responsibility for contacting LNER to implement this at the mainline station barriers would presumably lie with Nexus with it being their product. Northern's guards and RPIs have the equipment to read Pop cards, including the PAYG version, so I'm not sure why Nexus haven't bothered to contact LNER to sort out the barriers. Regardless of who the blame lies with though, it really needs sorting.

It's not the only case of tickets that are valid on both services between Newcastle and Sunderland not being advertised as such, as no mention is made either by Northern or Nexus that National Rail rover tickets valid between the two cities are also valid on Metro, and this has led to people being wrongly charged for new tickets by Metro.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's not specifically mentioned as being valid, though given the full interavailability of tickets between Northern and Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland, where any ticket valid for either service is valid on both, Pop PAYG should be accepted on Northern. The responsibility for contacting LNER to implement this at the mainline station barriers would presumably lie with Nexus with it being their product. Northern's guards and RPIs have the equipment to read Pop cards, including the PAYG version, so I'm not sure why Nexus haven't bothered to contact LNER to sort out the barriers. Regardless of who the blame lies with though, it really needs sorting.

It's not the only case of tickets that are valid on both services between Newcastle and Sunderland not being advertised as such, as no mention is made either by Northern or Nexus that National Rail rover tickets valid between the two cities are also valid on Metro, and this has led to people being wrongly charged for new tickets by Metro.

The only brief I’ve seen specifically said it wasn’t valid on National Rail. We’ve been talking to Nexus about a couple of things but they haven’t asked for PAYG.

 

[DanNCL]

The only brief I’ve seen specifically said it wasn’t valid on National Rail. We’ve been talking to Nexus about a couple of things but they haven’t asked for PAYG.

Nexus shouldn’t be saying that given the full interavailability agreement that applies between Newcastle and Sunderland. It does seem that Nexus are very firmly the ones at fault here. Hardly a surprise, they’re an incompetent organisation at the best of times.

It’s interesting that Nexus haven’t actually asked LNER or any of their predecessors to implement PAYG acceptance into the barriers at Newcastle station, as when I challenged Nexus on the matter a couple of years ago at a stakeholder meeting they claimed the blame lied with LNER. I will be challenging Nexus again on the matter.

It is good to know that LNER aren’t the ones responsible for this mess, despite what Nexus claim!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Nexus shouldn’t be saying that given the full interavailability agreement that applies between Newcastle and Sunderland. It does seem that Nexus are very firmly the ones at fault here. Hardly a surprise, they’re an incompetent organisation at the best of times.

It’s interesting that Nexus haven’t actually asked LNER or any of their predecessors to implement PAYG acceptance into the barriers at Newcastle station, as when I challenged Nexus on the matter a couple of years ago at a stakeholder meeting they claimed the blame lied with LNER. I will be challenging Nexus again on the matter.

It is good to know that LNER aren’t the ones responsible for this mess, despite what Nexus claim!

We’re even updating the gate line software to accept Pop Cards with tickets on