LNER Livery

[Rail Blues]

Personally, I don't care what they paint them, but I can see why there's paint froth on this occasion

I really can't. I am baffled that even the most ardent traditionalist would think modern stock was going to appear in liveries dating back nearly a century.

The travelling public will neither know nor care about the myriad of colours the long defunct LNER painted their trains in.

What they do want is a consistent and reliable service at a reasonable price. Playing heritage railways at the expense of the fare paying public is unlikely to go down well. In fact changing comparatively little is not only cost effective but may go someway to reassure passages about the continuity of service on the East Coast after all the drama and uncertainty.

I wonder if any of the so called 'paint frothers' coming up with these expensive, unnecessary and counter productive ideas is actually reliant on the East Coast franchise get them to work? If so you'd think they'd realise how low down the list of priorities this is. Or do they represent a cadre of posters for whom the railway is primarily a hobby, rather than an essential and daily means of transportation.

 

[DackandBlecker]

I really can't. I am baffled that even the most ardent traditionalist would think modern stock was going to appear in liveries dating back nearly a century.

The travelling public will neither know nor care about the myriad of colours the long defunct LNER painted their trains in.

What they do want is a consistent and reliable service at a reasonable price. Playing heritage railways at the expense of the fare paying public is unlikely to go down well. In fact changing comparatively little is not only cost effective but may go someway to reassure passages about the continuity of service on the East Coast after all the drama and uncertainty.

I wonder if any of the so called 'paint frothers' coming up with these expensive, unnecessary and counter productive ideas is actually reliant on the East Coast franchise get them to work? If so you'd think they'd realise how low down the list of priorities this is. Or do they represent a cadre of posters for whom the railway is primarily a hobby, rather than an essential and daily means of transportation.

Not sure why it would be at the public's expense, after all it's VTEC that should be paying for the removal of their branding. They should have peeled off all the vinyl and left them in the base coat.

If you can't see why some people would think that when they've used a traditional name then using a traditional colour scheme isn't a lot to ask, that's up to you.
I can though.

But for the avoidance of doubt, I don't care what they are painted. As long as they run on time-ish, have seats, and are better organised than VTEC is all that counts.
They could run in undercoat for all I care. And I don't mean East Coast grey

 

[Rhydgaled]

Because an earlier company with a similar name didn't use red locomotives?

No; because a series of different companies on the WCML used red. Assuming the West Coast Partnership is going to be something like London, Manchester and Scotland Railway (LMSR)* then there is a historical association with red and a red livery for LMSR would make sense. Unless you want the ECML trains and WCML trains both wearing vey similar red liveries, then it makes sense for the ECML trains to not be red. GWR has already used green, which leaves blue as a logical choice for the ECML.

* note: deliberately different name from the historical London Midland & Scotish

 

[Euan]

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues...rebrands-as-london-and-north-eastern-railway/
This talks through the design work that had happened for LNER to be branded in such a short amount of time

 

[Darandio]

Not sure why it would be at the public's expense, after all it's VTEC that should be paying for the removal of their branding. They should have peeled off all the vinyl and left them in the base coat.

It wasn't part of the deal, the OLR is to bear the cost of rebranding.

 

[DackandBlecker]

It wasn't part of the deal, the OLR is to bear the cost of rebranding.

Thanks. It's been the usual for changing franchises to remove specific operator branding in recent times.
I wonder why this was overlooked, missed, or concession given.

 

[DackandBlecker]

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues...rebrands-as-london-and-north-eastern-railway/
This talks through the design work that had happened for LNER to be branded in such a short amount of time

From the article
He adds that the “N” symbol in the new logo has a “directional” quality to it, which “subconsciously” harps back to the British Rail logo, designed by Margaret Calvert and Collis Clements in the 1960s.

The diagonal symbol is also used in the top right corner of posters and adverts, to further symbolise the North East.

The N points to the North West though!

 

[transmanche]

Unless you want the ECML trains and WCML trains both wearing very similar red liveries, then it makes sense for the ECML trains to not be red.

Why?

Why should it matter if both ECML trains and WCML trains both have red in their liveries? No-one but a handful of enthusiasts seem to think it important. The general travelling public really couldn't give a fig.

 

[CosherB]

No; because a series of different companies on the WCML used red. Assuming the West Coast Partnership is going to be something like London, Manchester and Scotland Railway (LMSR)* then there is a historical association with red and a red livery for LMSR would make sense. Unless you want the ECML trains and WCML trains both wearing vey similar red liveries, then it makes sense for the ECML trains to not be red. GWR has already used green, which leaves blue as a logical choice for the ECML.

* note: deliberately different name from the historical London Midland & Scotish

I seem to remember a time where WCML and ECML stock wore the same two tone grey and red livery!

 

[Rail Blues]

If you can't see why some people would think that when they've used a traditional name then using a traditional colour scheme isn't a lot to ask, that's up to you.
I can though

If nationalisation had never happened and the old LNER had continued to the present day, they would not be decked out in the same apple green or garter blue liveries or dragging along teak carriages, they'd have a livery and logo for the 2010s, not for the 1920s. Just like Sainsburys (est 1869) don't have the same logo and store interiors as they did when they set up.

The livery absolutists seem to think that the travelling public should pick up the bill for this, regardless of how patiently and logically the argument is laid out to them and the significant costs and sheer waste of gutting nearly new interiors.

They simply aren't living in the real world.

 

[43096]

At least the first 225 that East Coast rebranded, if not a few of the subsequent ones, were actually silver, and I thought that they looked rather smart. They definitely glinted.

The majority, however, were indeed grey.

I’m not sure if the distinction was that the silver one/s was/were painted, and the grey ones vinylled.

All the 225s were painted. The reason for the change was cost. The silver didn’t work, either, as it really showed up the imperfections on the Mark 4 bodyshells.

 

[FQTV]

All the 225s were painted. The reason for the change was cost. The silver didn’t work, either, as it really showed up the imperfections on the Mark 4 bodyshells.

That makes a lot of sense on both counts and, thinking about it, I’ve got a picture somewhere of a silver Mark 4 set at York looking very rippled (but shiny!)

 

[DarloRich]

I really can't. I am baffled that even the most ardent traditionalist would think modern stock was going to appear in liveries dating back nearly a century.

The travelling public will neither know nor care about the myriad of colours the long defunct LNER painted their trains in.

What they do want is a consistent and reliable service at a reasonable price. Playing heritage railways at the expense of the fare paying public is unlikely to go down well. In fact changing comparatively little is not only cost effective but may go someway to reassure passages about the continuity of service on the East Coast after all the drama and uncertainty.

I wonder if any of the so called 'paint frothers' coming up with these expensive, unnecessary and counter productive ideas is actually reliant on the East Coast franchise get them to work? If so you'd think they'd realise how low down the list of priorities this is. Or do they represent a cadre of posters for whom the railway is primarily a hobby, rather than an essential and daily means of transportation.

Agreed entirely.

Entirely unscientific but i spoke to some friends about this over the weekend. None are train buffs. All live in the North East or Leeds. All are regular users of the ECML. None of them cared what colour the trains were painted. None. Not. One. Most don't even care about the name. It is East Coast or Virgin as far as they are concerned. They would rather the money was spent on improving reliability. it is the desire to waste a fortune in taxpayers money that i find most difficult to grasp. It is the disconnection from the real world i find most hard to grasp.

There is always paint wibble around a franchise change but it is worse this time because it allows train buffs to operate their most favoured possession: Nostalgia. I maintain if this operate was called SNLR there wouldn't be half as much silliness.

 

[tbtc]

If nationalisation had never happened and the old LNER had continued to the present day, they would not be decked out in the same apple green or garter blue liveries or dragging along teak carriages, they'd have a livery and logo for the 2010s, not for the 1920s. Just like Sainsburys (est 1869) don't have the same logo and store interiors as they did when they set up.

The livery absolutists seem to think that the travelling public should pick up the bill for this, regardless of how patiently and logically the argument is laid out to them and the significant costs and sheer waste of gutting nearly new interiors.

They simply aren't living in the real world.

Agreed.

Some people on here seem to think that a company that used best part of a dozen different colours in the twenty five years it was around would definitely be using their favourite version of that livery were it still around a further seventy years later.

And we can't possibly have the ECML franchise using red in its livery as there's a bi-hourly service at one station on the network where another TOC will use one of their trains with some red on them. (ignoring the 06:48 from Glasgow Central to Kings Cross)

Still, its funny to see people dismiss the LNER colour scheme as being "dull" and "unimaginative", from people who would prefer them to copy a livery from best part of a hundred years ago (because there's nothing unimaginative about copying a historic colour scheme?).

Where does this paint wibble end? Should the current ScotRail franchise be forces to use the black/ silver/ pale blue livery from the original ScotRail of the 1980s? Or maybe they should ditch the Saltires and go for the understated orange/ purple/ green ScotRail livery that National Express used?

Where do nostalgists draw the line?

 

[devonexpress]

If nationalisation had never happened and the old LNER had continued to the present day, they would not be decked out in the same apple green or garter blue liveries or dragging along teak carriages, they'd have a livery and logo for the 2010s, not for the 1920s. Just like Sainsburys (est 1869) don't have the same logo and store interiors as they did when they set up.

The livery absolutists seem to think that the travelling public should pick up the bill for this, regardless of how patiently and logically the argument is laid out to them and the significant costs and sheer waste of gutting nearly new interiors.

They simply aren't living in the real world.

Yet they have kept their corporate house colours, GWR green, Tesco Blue, Waitrose Green. It is very likely that if the LNER had continued it would have kept to its corporate colours, its how people recognise a brand. I can get why the new LNER is using red, the DFT are trying to keep costs down, however its not to say in the future if another franchise award is to happen it has to stay that colour. I do think however that Virgin should be paying for the mess they left on VTEC, the amount of money they wasted in the first 2 years, painting the actual engines red(not the trains but the MTU engines) was a stupid idea.

 

[devonexpress]

What a apple green hst could have looked like.

 

[mde]

Yet they have kept their corporate house colours, GWR green, Tesco Blue, Waitrose Green. It is very likely that if the LNER had continued it would have kept to its corporate colours, its how people recognise a brand. I can get why the new LNER is using red, the DFT are trying to keep costs down, however its not to say in the future if another franchise award is to happen it has to stay that colour. I do think however that Virgin should be paying for the mess they left on VTEC, the amount of money they wasted in the first 2 years, painting the actual engines red(not the trains but the MTU engines) was a stupid idea.

Painting the engines themselves?!

Incidentally - Waitrose is going black and re-branding to "Waitrose & Partners" so change is on the horizon there. I don't think a LNER style entity from the past would be any different, look at how many entities and house styles the former British Rail had as a prime example - BR had high standards in this area, but, it didn't stop them from using visual cues to differentiate service offerings, nor, did it stop them changing things up as and when it was felt necessary.

I'd love to see a Garter blue IET, but, it's as likely to happen as the turkeys voting for Christmas. That said, if you did style it similar to the new Hull Trains versions (e.g. metallic blue with a suitable 'ribbon' colour running along side), you could have something rather fancy looking.

 

[Rick1984]

Should the current ScotRail franchise be forces to use the black/ silver/ pale blue livery from the original ScotRail of the 1980s?

Looks pretty good actually. (Not my image) The current livery is probably more appropriate and modern though

 

[transmanche]

Yet they have kept their corporate house colours, GWR green, Tesco Blue, Waitrose Green.

The classic 'shirtbutton' GWR logo used from 1934 onwards was yellow. Tesco logos were always red, blue was only added in the 1990s (as the dashes under the word Tesco. And as noted elsewhere, Waitrose is changing to black.

Barclays has moved from its classic turquoise colour to a sky blue logo. More recently, Arriva has done something similar. The RAC changed from a blue logo to orange. And Asda used to have an orange logo, before changing to green. WH Smith also used to be orange, before moving to blue.

And so on...

It is very likely that if the LNER had continued it would have kept to its corporate colours, its how people recognise a brand.

Except that LNER never had a consistent corporate colour. And you have nothing to base your assertion on other than wibble.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

There is always paint wibble around a franchise change but it is worse this time because it allows train buffs to operate their most favoured possession: Nostalgia. I maintain if this operate was called SNLR there wouldn't be half as much silliness.

Saturday Night Live Railway - that would certainly be pretty silly!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Yes. In fact at least one Gresley teak buffet car made it into Blue / Grey which was used in the Cambridge Buffet Express up to that service's withdrawl in the late 70s.

Here's the evidence https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-...tEDD-Ze9x9D-D2Bnq-mHp8MK-5ct1LE-egeMPo-6p6cge

Thanks for that, amazing.

 

[route:oxford]

Saturday Night Live Railway - that would certainly be pretty silly!

Aberdeen, Newcastle And London Railway didn't get to the short list either.

Probably for the same reason that when Abbey National rescued Alliance & Leicester the holding company wasn't the initials of the constituent companies. BB for "Bradford & Bingley" wouldn't have been helpful.

 

[route:oxford]

The classic 'shirtbutton' GWR logo used from 1934 onwards was yellow. Tesco logos were always red, blue was only added in the 1990s (as the dashes under the word Tesco. And as noted elsewhere, Waitrose is changing to black.

http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Asda
http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Tesco

Waitrose is returning to black...

http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Waitrose

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Aberdeen, Newcastle And London Railway didn't get to the short list either.

Probably for the same reason that when Abbey National rescued Alliance & Leicester the holding company wasn't the initials of the constituent companies. BB for "Bradford & Bingley" wouldn't have been helpful.

I think they dropped the Capital Upto Newcastle, Tyneside & Scotland as well as the aquatically inspired Thames, Wash And Tyneside names during branding exercises too.

 

[FQTV]

I don’t want to worry anyone, and I appreciate that this may unleash all sorts of trouble, but as someone who sees it every day, it’s notable that the dominant colour on all the marketing collateral (print-speak for menus, timetables, leaflets etc.,) is actually a very, very dark browny-red.

Almost bull’s blood red, you could say.....

 

[Harbornite]

I seem to remember a time where WCML and ECML stock wore the same two tone grey and red livery!

Not to mention blue and grey before that.

 

[66Yorks]

I agree. I personally don't mind what colour the train is I'm travelling on. As long as its clean (inside and out) and everything works then I'll board it.

Why?

Why should it matter if both ECML trains and WCML trains both have red in their liveries? No-one but a handful of enthusiasts seem to think it important. The general travelling public really couldn't give a fig.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think they dropped the Capital Upto Newcastle, Tyneside & Scotland as well as the aquatically inspired Thames, Wash And Tyneside names during branding exercises too.

Though if they'd gone for either of those, Grayling being in charge would be entirely appropriate!

 

[Rick1984]

What a apple green hst could have looked like.

Very smart and a bit different. Would probably look good on 800 too. Would also work in Garter Blue

 

[K.o.R]

What a apple green hst could have looked like.

I realise this is super nitpicky as you have to zoom right in, but you have it as "London Northern Eastern Railway".

Also the font should be Gill Sans for authenticity