LNER ticket machines

[cactustwirly]

Just had the displeasure of using one of these.
Literally the worst ticket machine I have ever used, you can't just select a ticket, oh no that would be far too simple. You have to plan your journey, even if you want a simple ticket like London to Cambridge.
The touchscreen is so unresponsive that it takes 5 minutes to buy a ticket, when it's 30 seconds on every other Machine.
Why can't they use the machines used by GWR and EMR which are really good an intuitive to use?

 

[py_megapixel]

I wonder if LNER have bought into the same crap as Arriva with their TVMs. The experience on a Northern or Chiltern one is very similar - if you approach the machine knowing that you want an Off Peak Return from York to Bradford Interchange, for example, then there's no mechanism to select that - it requires that you go through the Journey Planner interface which takes twice as long...

And all of this under the guise of being intuitive and easy to use!

 

[Haywain]

Well, this has been the set up on LNER TVMs for 4 years now, so it’s not really anything new. Some people don’t like them but some people don’t like the restrictions on what you can and can’t buy on TVMs provided by other TOCs.

 

[py_megapixel]

Well, this has been the set up on LNER TVMs for 4 years now, so it’s not really anything new. Some people don’t like them but some people don’t like the restrictions on what you can and can’t buy on TVMs provided by other TOCs.

It would surely be possible to have a TVM with a Journey Planner and the facility to issue all ticket types, but also an "I know what I want" button which just allows you to quickly pick a ticket and buy it?

 

[cactustwirly]

Well, this has been the set up on LNER TVMs for 4 years now, so it’s not really anything new. Some people don’t like them but some people don’t like the restrictions on what you can and can’t buy on TVMs provided by other TOCs.

Wdym? Other TVMs sell the vast majority of tickets, just not groupsave and Rovers.

 

[Haywain]

Wdym? Other TVMs sell the vast majority of tickets, just not groupsave and Rovers.

You could look through past threads here to find out about problems from other TOCs TVMs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Wdym? Other TVMs sell the vast majority of tickets, just not groupsave and Rovers.

You forgot any ticket requiring a reservation

 

[cactustwirly]

You forgot any ticket requiring a reservation

People buy advances online, TVMs are used to buy tickets just before travel. So I don't understand how that feature is needed?
Why do I still need to waste time planning a journey to Cambridge which doesn't have reservations in the first place?

It seems like the people who designed these have no clue, the marketing types who have bright ideas but have don't consider the practicalities.

On other TVMs you type in the destination, and select the ticket type. Your ticket is printed before the LNER machine has planned your journey unnecessarily.

 

[Haywain]

People buy advances online, TVMs are used to buy tickets just before travel. So I don't understand how that feature is needed?

Because Advance tickets are often available right up to the time of departure now. And some routes have frequent enough services that waiting 5 or 10 minutes can result in quite a saving.

Why do I still need to waste time planning a journey to Cambridge which doesn't have reservations in the first place?

Because perhaps you don’t know when Off Peak fares kick in or what the difference between Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak might be and this can help you make an informed choice, rather than guessing.

You feel the machines don’t suit you but you are not genuinely representative of all LNER customers.

 

[Wallsendmag]

People buy advances online, TVMs are used to buy tickets just before travel. So I don't understand how that feature is needed?
Why do I still need to waste time planning a journey to Cambridge which doesn't have reservations in the first place?

It seems like the people who designed these have no clue, the marketing types who have bright ideas but have don't consider the practicalities.

On other TVMs you type in the destination, and select the ticket type. Your ticket is printed before the LNER machine has planned your journey unnecessarily.

This machines have been in place for 4 years and conform to the RDG best practice guide, there i a quick issue screen but this isn't in use at the moment as it bypasses the mandatory reservation requirement. I can assure you that these TVMs weren't specified by marketing. If you realy dislike them so much why not use a GTR machine ?

 

[py_megapixel]

Because Advance tickets are often available right up to the time of departure now. And some routes have frequent enough services that waiting 5 or 10 minutes can result in quite a saving.

Because perhaps you don’t know when Off Peak fares kick in or what the difference between Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak might be and this can help you make an informed choice, rather than guessing.

You feel the machines don’t suit you but you are not genuinely representative of all LNER customers.

So why is it beyond the wisdom of man to have a button somewhere that allows bypassing the journey planner, for the people who know exactly what they want? You could call it "Fast Track" or something.

Possibly TOCs should sacrifice their commission for selling the ticket from a TVM if it takes the passenger more than a certain amount of time or button presses... it's ridiculous some of the cumbersome designs that they've come up with...

 

[Haywain]

So why is it beyond the wisdom of man to have a button somewhere that allows bypassing the journey planner, for the people who know exactly what they want? You could call it "Fast Track" or something.

Possibly TOCs should sacrifice their commission for selling the ticket from a TVM if it takes the passenger more than a certain amount of time or button presses... it's ridiculous some of the cumbersome designs that they've come up with...

You don’t have to use the TVM if you don’t like it. You have never had so much choice over how and where to buy tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because perhaps you don’t know when Off Peak fares kick in or what the difference between Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak might be and this can help you make an informed choice, rather than guessing.

You feel the machines don’t suit you but you are not genuinely representative of all LNER customers.

Northern require you to plan a journey to buy a ticket. Chiltern too - same type of machine. It really grates.

Those machines need an "expert mode" - a button "I know what ticket I want" - which would take you to a traditional screen as per older TVMs where you just pick. It could perhaps print "restrictions advised" on the ticket to confirm that you've made a choice yourself against the restriction code text rather than them advising you based on a journey plan.

 

[py_megapixel]

You don’t have to use the TVM if you don’t like it. You have never had so much choice over how and where to buy tickets.

That's a good thing, because it means I can buy tickets from a TOC wherever in the country I like, and don't have to give the comission for my ticket sales to a company whose ticket machines are obtusely designed.

However I used to like using TVMs.
Type in your destination - choose ticket type and routing - choose discounts - pay - pick up tickets. Simple. If you wanted a journey planner then you just used a website.

Now it's more along the lines of
Type in destination - choose time & single/return - realise that desired outbound train is not displayed because of a bug - choose first displayed train that looks like the correct routing - choose return train - confirm that I don't want an outbound reservation - confirm that I don't want a return reservation - choose anytime/off-peak - choose discounts - pay - pick up tickets.

Far too many steps have been added the process.

And don't even get me started on "Promise to Pay Permits"...

Those machines need an "expert mode" - a button "I know what ticket I want" - which would take you to a traditional screen as per older TVMs where you just pick. It could perhaps print "restrictions advised" on the ticket to confirm that you've made a choice yourself against the restriction code text rather than them advising you based on a journey plan.

Indeed. I have suggested exactly the same concept before on this forum, and several times, depending on the nature of the thread, I have either been agreed with, or shouted down because the journey planner is "intuitive" or whatever. It's intuitive to new passengers. To regular passengers, it feels nothing more than dumbed-down.

I have no objection to attracting new passengers with intuitive design - in fact, in a time when people are more cautious to take the train than ever, it's a necessity for the railway to survive - but I don't see why that has to be at the expense of everyone else when there is such an obvious solution that suits everyone. Just have the journey planner, but with an inconspicuous button for "fast track" or whatever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I have suggested exactly the same concept before on this forum, and several times, depending on the nature of the thread, I have either been agreed with, or shouted down because the journey planner is "intuitive" or whatever. It's intuitive to new passengers. To regular passengers, it feels nothing more than dumbed-down.

A journey planner is certainly intuitive. What it isn't, though, is quick. Provided the amount is low enough to pay contactless, I can have a ticket out of a traditional S&B TVM in about 15-20 seconds - only a skilled member of staff with an old style APTIS could beat that. Well over a minute with a planner, probably more.

It definitely makes sense to have a planner for people who don't know the technicalities of ticketing, there just needs to be an option to bypass it if you know what you want, and as I said I'm quite happy to have something printed on the ticket to confirm I made my own choice and am responsible for that if it is not valid on the train I try to use it on.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If picking from the ”Popular Tickets“ section of @station I could comfortably beat that.

A journey planner is certainly intuitive. What it isn't, though, is quick. Provided the amount is low enough to pay contactless, I can have a ticket out of a traditional S&B TVM in about 15-20 seconds - only a skilled member of staff with an old style APTIS could beat that. Well over a minute with a planner, probably more.

It definitely makes sense to have a planner for people who don't know the technicalities of ticketing, there just needs to be an option to bypass it if you know what you want, and as I said I'm quite happy to have something printed on the ticket to confirm I made my own choice and am responsible for that if it is not valid on the train I try to use it on.

That’s great but the RDG TVM guidelines demand something different. No TOC aims for the expert user, we have to aim our products at the average non gender specific bipod in the street.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If picking from the ”Popular Tickets“ section of @station I could comfortably beat that.

It probably takes about 10 seconds total to print out, back and receipt, so I doubt by much unless the TVM you use has a faster printer.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It probably takes about 10 seconds total to print out, back and receipt, so I doubt by much unless the TVM you use has a faster printer.

It’s a desktop TIS with a PRT printer. Very very quick and I’m pretty sure I’ve used it more than most on here have used a TVM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a desktop TIS with a PRT printer. Very very quick and I’m pretty sure I’ve used it more than most on here have used a TVM.

Ah, fair enough, I thought you meant a TVM.

 

[bkhtele]

Perhaps time is coming soon to scrap TVM's if TDG can't specify ones that are useful with the option of minimum key depressions for popular tickets & touch screens that work like tablets.

Guess free wifi & staff to help download a simple app could make them redundant. If all tvms were scrapped I am sure there could be a cut in ticket prices!

If it works for car parks why not ticket machines?

 

[py_megapixel]

That’s great but the RDG TVM guidelines demand something different.

Have you read said guidelines? They appear to be available freely online at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/component/arkhive/?task=file.download&id=469771183
Quote from Section 8.2.1:

Current TVMs place a high level of emphasis on the customer finding their way to the right ticket rather than the machine guiding the customer to the ticket which is right for them. However the most popular destinations and tickets make up by far the greatest number of transactions made through a TVM and many customers know exactly the ticket they want.

A balance is therefore needed between the TVM emulating the ticket office clerk and asking lots of questions to narrow the options down, versus managing the length of the transaction to deliver one recommended fare only.

The TVM should therefore offer both options from its first screen; quick buy options for confident customers (e.g. "I know what I want") and an interrogative option for less confident customers ("help me find the best fare") which would tailor the response to their requirements eg fastest service, next service, cheapest service etc

(my bold)

 

[Haywain]

Have you read said guidelines? They appear to be available freely online at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/component/arkhive/?task=file.download&id=469771183
Quote from Section 8.2.1:

(my bold)

Yes, we’ve read the guidelines. What TDG don’t deal with is who would pay to develop the GUI that provides both options. And if you are criticising LNER and Northern for not providing your preferred option will you also criticise all the other TOCs who fail to provide your non-preferred option?

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, we’ve read the guidelines. What TDG don’t deal with is who would pay to develop the GUI that provides both options.

I know the guidelines have their flaws, but that misses the point. The point I was making was that the argument "The RDG guidelines call for something different" clearly isn't valid, because they call exactly for what @Bletchleyite and I have described.

And if you are criticising LNER and Northern for not providing your preferred option will you also criticise all the other TOCs who fail to provide your non-preferred option?

Yes, but less so.
I see the introduction of journey planners to TVMs as "fixing what ain't broke". I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody who would embark on a rail journey long or unfamiliar enough to merit planning, without using an online journey planner in advance?

However I understand that many people still find them easier to use. So overall - yes, I believe TOCs which don't provide a journey planner on their TVM should work towards doing so - but not at the expense of the "classic" interface.

 

[tarq]

Yes, we’ve read the guidelines. What TDG don’t deal with is who would pay to develop the GUI that provides both options. And if you are criticising LNER and Northern for not providing your preferred option will you also criticise all the other TOCs who fail to provide your non-preferred option?

There needs to be a standard TVM UI designed by RDG/Network Rail/William’s Guiding Mind that will deliver the guidelines, work with as many machines as possible, and made available for manufacturers and TOCs. The same goes for web booking engines, ticket office technology, way finding signage, staff uniform, the list goes on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There needs to be a standard TVM UI designed by RDG/Network Rail/William’s Guiding Mind that will deliver the guidelines, work with as many machines as possible, and made available for manufacturers and TOCs. The same goes for web booking engines, ticket office technology, way finding signage, staff uniform, the list goes on.

Agreed. SBB, for example, has a few different types of TVM, but all work the same way.

 

[35B]

Because Advance tickets are often available right up to the time of departure now. And some routes have frequent enough services that waiting 5 or 10 minutes can result in quite a saving.

Because perhaps you don’t know when Off Peak fares kick in or what the difference between Anytime, Off Peak and Super Off Peak might be and this can help you make an informed choice, rather than guessing.

You feel the machines don’t suit you but you are not genuinely representative of all LNER customers.

All fair comments, but I suggest making the UI more complicated to resolve these issues missed the root cause of the problem.

The basic use case for purchasing from a TVM is immediate travel for walk up customers. Introducing that level of journey planning undermines the walk up model, and acts as a deterrent to casual travel. As others have posted, the default should be to sell tickets for immediate travel, with a journey planner option offered.

 

[Haywain]

All fair comments, but I suggest making the UI more complicated to resolve these issues missed the root cause of the problem.

The basic use case for purchasing from a TVM is immediate travel for walk up customers. Introducing that level of journey planning undermines the walk up model, and acts as a deterrent to casual travel. As others have posted, the default should be to sell tickets for immediate travel, with a journey planner option offered.

Which is why our TVMs offer (pre-COVID), at the outset, the 10 most popular tickets. These cater for well over 50% of purchases. Unfortunately, these options had to be removed as many are not compatible with mandatory reservations.

 

[py_megapixel]

Which is why our TVMs offer (pre-COVID), at the outset, the 10 most popular tickets. These cater for well over 50% of purchases. Unfortunately, these options had to be removed as many are not compatible with mandatory reservations.

Which is great for that 50%, but unhelpful to the other 50% who now have an extra stupid screen to click through.

This whole situation arises from attempting to fix something which didn't need fixing.

Why aren't Advances online-only anyway? That would make a lot of sense to me. Many other businesses charge less for less flexibile bookings made online (e.g. cinemas, hotels etc)

 

[Haywain]

This whole situation arises from attempting to fix something which didn't need fixing.

Why aren't Advances online-only anyway? That would make a lot of sense to me. Many other businesses charge less for less flexibile bookings made online (e.g. cinemas, hotels etc)

So this is really all about you. And to solve this you’d like to reduce the options and increase the prices for others.

 

[py_megapixel]

So this is really all about you. And to solve this you’d like to reduce the options and increase the prices for others.

No... I haven't said anything about increasing prices... as for reducing choices, until the likes of Northern started faffing about with overcomplicated ticket machines, Advances effectively were online/phone only (or possibly at ticket offices, but I have never seen anyone buy an Advance at a ticket office).

In case you hadn't noticed, my overall stance is actually for more choice. I want there to be both a journey planner and a simpler more conventional interface. However, in my opinion, in the absence of the ability to have both (not that this should be too complex, but anyway...) I believe the conventional interface should be prioritised.

And yes, that is a personal opinion, and it is purely mine, however I believe it is a justified opinion, because a journey planner is available to the general public via other means (i.e. the Internet), but a conventional TVM interface is not.