LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Envy123]

I travel once a week from Peterborough to Farringdon. I normally buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard Zones 1-6, which allows me to take Thameslink if needed. And I did because LNER was delayed for a long time because of problems up north.

LNER-only tickets are a recipe for disaster.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Or, you could do the sensible thing and buy an advance/flex when your travel plans become clearer.

Under single leg pricing, you can’t benefit from the ‘return in 30 days’ that was previously part of return tickets anyway. So you’ll still have to buy a ticket for a date.

And what has single leg pricing got to do with it? If you are a turn up and go passenger, you are buying a ticket for a specific date anyway. Today.

But if your return travel plans don't become clear until close to the the time of travel, even if it's the same day as your outward trip, all the "advance/flex" tickets for that day could be sold out by the time you know when you are going back. That can never happen with an off peak ticket.

 

[Agent_Squash]

And what has single leg pricing got to do with it? If you are a turn up and go passenger, you are buying a ticket for a specific date anyway. Today.

But if your return travel plans don't become clear until close to the the time of travel, even if it's the same day as your outward trip, all the "advance/flex" tickets for that day could be sold out by the time you know when you are going back. That can never happen with an off peak ticket.

Your example explicitly mentioned Anytime Returns. They don’t exist anymore on LNER.

Again, people are making their judgement based on the worst case scenario - I’d genuinely be surprised if (outside of packed out trains) these tickets will be sold out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would they be offering advances at a cheaper rate on the day if they just wanted money?

Because some trains will sell at a lower price and some will sell at a higher price. The notable times that might sell at a higher price are the "off peak peak" of Friday PM and Sunday PM, plus school holidays.

Are you happy for those fares to increase substantially? Because they will.

You keep mentioning the Avanti anytimes. You fail to mention the key differences between them; namely Avanti don’t (at all, iirc) do advance on the day, and there is a clear peak demand on London-Manchester.

That's utterly irrelevant to the capping effect of walk-up fares. There's also a clear peak demand on Newcastle-London too, anyway.

Considering LNER have competition from the car, the plane and on the rails from Lumo, I would be very surprised if they started taking the biscuit with dynamic pricing.

The whole idea is that they do!

The DfT subsidy for Northern has to come from somewhere!

Yes, by LNER charging more!

For anyone outside these forums, off peak is far more complicated than it needs to be.

Sure, you can ‘do your research’ - but why should the system be so complicated that you need to in the first place?

Single fare pricing effectively removed that complication - just use a journey planner!

 

[mad_rich]

Another example of the Flex 70 fare not being a fixed £20 extra. Here it’s simply not offered.

I assume LNER don’t want people buying a ‘cheap’ £100 fare on the 1900, then shifting into the peak for the 1800. So it seems pretty clear to me they’ll be manipulating this as part of the yield management.

A screenshot of a price grid showing several departures between 1800 and 1900. The three earlier trains have the Flex fare available for £20 extra. The cheaper 1900 departure doesn’t offer a flex fare.

 

[miklcct]

Again, who actually is a TUAG passenger on the long distance railway?

Someone who travel to London to watch football, who has no idea if the match will go overtime / penalties.

This is a very common use case and it is not nice to kill off such custom.

 

[MTR380A]

I might be in the minority who view this change positively, noting that:

1. It is currently somewhat difficult to explain to non-regular rail users when off-peak and super off-peak tickets can be used.
2. The Anytime fare is expensive compared to the off-peak, but at around 48p/mile it is not as outrageous as those on GWR, which is like £1/mile. If there were a per mile cap such as 45p/mile as previously discussed on this forum, this is not too far off.
3. The single leg pricing has provided rail users with more options, such as returning by coach or traveling in triangular/cyclic fashion.
4. Hopefully there will be more walk-up advance tickets available, so those demanding some kind of but not absolute flexibility may still enjoy lower fare.
5. A few minor twitches would be desired, such as automatically upgrading the ticket to anytime in case of cancellation and significant delay.

 

[OscarH]

Can the reservation system (RARS2 I think?) automatically link availability of different fare quotas, i.e. linking the Semi-Flex 70 to the Advance fare, or does this need input from LNER's own systems? I would hope the former is possible, otherwise with this new fares regime things would likely get out of sync quite rapidly!

Don't know for certain (they're quite secretive with telling retailers what it can actually do), but I think the former is possible.

Is there some concrete evidence that the £20 difference is actually policy though, or just a tweet that says they are looking at it as part of the trial?

I have seen it in more formal, potentially internal, documents

 

[norbitonflyer]

I might be in the minority who view this change positively, noting that:

1. Hopefully there will be more walk-up advance tickets available, so those demanding some kind of but not absolute flexibility may still enjoy lower fare

What nonsense is this? If it's a walk up fare it means you don't have to buy it in advance.

A walk-up fare means that you can turn up at the station and be certain that you can buy a ticket at that fare for the next train.
Advance fares are quota'd. You may be able to buy a ticket at that fare on the day, or they may have sold out weeks before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another example of the Flex 70 fare not being a fixed £20 extra. Here it’s simply not offered.

I assume LNER don’t want people buying a ‘cheap’ £100 fare on the 1900, then shifting into the peak for the 1800. So it seems pretty clear to me they’ll be manipulating this as part of the yield management.

Yes, if you look on brfares.com there's a stack of rather complex (simple? ) unpublished restrictions that prevents it being offered on certain trains.

What nonsense is this? If it's a walk up fare it means you don't have to buy it in advance.

A walk-up fare means that you can turn up at the station and be certain that you can buy a ticket at that fare for the next train.
Advance fares are quota'd. You may be able to buy a ticket at that fare on the day, or they may have sold out weeks before.

I think the poster means "Advances available up to departure time ish". Plenty of TOCs do this, LNER do now as do Northern.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Your example explicitly mentioned Anytime Returns. They don’t exist anymore on LNER.

All right, to be pedantic, the price of a return trip using anytime tickets. The point remains that driving would be cheaper - even if you have to hire a car and factor in an overnight stay.

Yes, if you look on brfares.com there's a stack of rather complex (simple? ) unpublished restrictions that prevents it being offered on certain trains.



I think the poster means "Advances available up to departure time ish". Plenty of TOCs do this, LNER do now as do Northern.

Doubtless they can - but they can still sell out, so you don't know, until you turn up at the station, how much you are going to pay.

 

[mike57]

Just seen this. Booking through tickets with multiple operators one of them LNER, e.g. one of our regular journeys Bempton - Peterborough changing at Doncaster, is already complicated, in order to get a competive fare split ticketing is frequently required. This change is just going to add to the problems. Once this change comes to the Doncaster - Peterborough leg booking engine will no doubt offer an anytime fare, and that will frighten people off.

How come LNER are 'going their own way' with fares, surely we need a national system, with all operators offering the same selection of tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doubtless they can - but they can still sell out, so you don't know, until you turn up at the station, how much you are going to pay.

Yes, correct, it is rather risky.

The idea of single-fare pricing works on the basis that you can gain full flexibility by not buying until you know when you're going to travel. But if the cap suddenly rises from about £90 to about £200, that becomes inviable. Which means you have to fix in advance. Which means the advantage of the train is removed, so you might as well fly - cheaper and faster. Or drive for flexibility.

How come LNER are 'going their own way' with fares, surely we need a national system, with all operators offering the same selection of tickets.

I think LNER are basically prototyping a national system

 

[Joe Paxton]

Another example of the Flex 70 fare not being a fixed £20 extra. Here it’s simply not offered.

I assume LNER don’t want people buying a ‘cheap’ £100 fare on the 1900, then shifting into the peak for the 1800. So it seems pretty clear to me they’ll be manipulating this as part of the yield management.

A screenshot of a price grid showing several departures between 1800 and 1900. The three earlier trains have the Flex fare available for £20 extra. The cheaper 1900 departure doesn’t offer a flex fare.

(My bolding in the second paragraph.)

Well, manipulating things is arguably the definition of yield management!

I think there's a difference between the situation whereby a Semi-Flex 70 fare is offered at greater than a £20 uplift to the corresponding Advance on the same train (i.e. going against LNER's publicised policy for the new fares regime, but quite possibly a teething mistake in the new implementation), and simply not offering the Semi-Flex 70 fare at all - LNER have not said they are making the Semi-Flex 70 available on every train.

There are lots of examples of the Semi-Flex 70 fare not being offered on shoulder peak trains, presumably exactly for the reason you give - to try and avoid providing a 'backdoor' way of using cheaper fares on busier (peak) services. In the context of the fares system they are implementing, it does make sense.

 

[OscarH]

Yes, if you look on brfares.com there's a stack of rather complex (simple? ) unpublished restrictions that prevents it being offered on certain trains.

Absolutely insane. How is that a sensible thing to do as part of this, leaving a 2 tier system on some trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are lots of examples of the Semi-Flex 70 fare not being offered on shoulder peak trains, presumably exactly for the reason you give - to try and avoid providing a 'backdoor' way of using cheaper fares on busier (peak) services. In the context of the fares system they are implementing, it does make sense.

What it isn't, though, is simple!

 

[robbeech]

Again, people are making their judgement based on the worst case scenario - I’d genuinely be surprised if (outside of packed out trains) these tickets will be sold out.

But many trains are packed out, especially at weekends, and especially when they cancel so many the night before. So let’s not make judgements on best case scenarios either.

When there are no seats left to reserve there will be no option but to stand for some or all of your journey if you need to catch a particular service. Currently you’ll have to buy a super off peak single (if timings allow) in order to stand for a few hours. The new setup means you’ll have to pay what is often double that in order to stand.

If LNER don’t want people on a train, they can just not release advances for it, it then limits that train to those who can afford the SOS.

There’s a massive control element to this that people seem to be forgetting, focussing only on price.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If LNER don’t want people on a train, they can just not release advances for it, it then limits that train to those who can afford the SOS.

It certainly makes their life easier, e.g. they can diagram a 5 car where they want it and only sell enough tickets to fill it, hardly anyone will be willing to pay the Anytime rate to stand.

 

[takno]

I might be in the minority who view this change positively, noting that:

1. It is currently somewhat difficult to explain to non-regular rail users when off-peak and super off-peak tickets can be used.
2. The Anytime fare is expensive compared to the off-peak, but at around 48p/mile it is not as outrageous as those on GWR, which is like £1/mile. If there were a per mile cap such as 45p/mile as previously discussed on this forum, this is not too far off.
3. The single leg pricing has provided rail users with more options, such as returning by coach or traveling in triangular/cyclic fashion.
4. Hopefully there will be more walk-up advance tickets available, so those demanding some kind of but not absolute flexibility may still enjoy lower fare.
5. A few minor twitches would be desired, such as automatically upgrading the ticket to anytime in case of cancellation and significant delay.

The switch to single leg pricing was largely a good thing, albeit with a cheeky small price hike attached for people who were returning. That's got absolutely nothing to do with this change, which is a massive price hike and reduction in flexibility.

Pointing out the fact that GWR's anytime fares are even more outrageous as a benefit also seems rather self-defeating, since the same change is highly likely to make it to GWR soon.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Or, you could do the sensible thing and buy an advance/flex when your travel plans become clearer.

If one is actually available, which isn't guaranteed.

 

[robbeech]

If one is actually available, which isn't guaranteed.

Infact all availability can be withdrawn at any time. They could in theory decide on Saturday at 2130 that they will no longer have ANY advance / flex available on Sunday, all day, and cancel half the trains. Those who have bought tickets will be delayed and not compensated, those who don’t have tickets will be forced to pay the anytime fare.

 

[mad_rich]

Well, manipulating things is arguably the definition of yield management!

I guess what I meant was 'We'll manage the yield by adjusting the Advance price, but you can get 70 minutes of flex for £20' is a simple to understand but 'we'll adjust the Advance price and mess around with the availability and price of the flex option' is less simple and more odious.

It's kind of like what Ryanair does. The flight price can vary with demand - sure, most people get that. But when they also mess around with the cost of baggage and ancillaries - which also vary quite secretly in the background depending on the whims of Ryanair - it doesn't seem fair game any more.

 

[cjxmc]

I'm going to stick with Lumo, at least I have an the option for an anytime ticket (which doesn't cost the earth) and their services are spaced throughout the day. LNER have ruined flexible travel for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm going to stick with Lumo, at least I have an the option for an anytime ticket (which doesn't cost the earth) and their services are spaced throughout the day. LNER have ruined flexible travel for me.

I think Lumo's Anytime being set to about the same as the LNER Super Off Peak is for a reason, and that they'll crank it up very shortly.

 

[Fermiboson]

What alternatives are there for HSTs on the LNER network? London > Newcastle and beyond can be covered by Lumo, and I suppose London > Doncaster/Wakefield can be covered by Grand Central (but only on weekdays - any weekend routes?) and Thameslink/Great Northern to Peterborough?

 

[Peter0124]

https://twitter.com/scrivvyfloor/status/1747657049117171785

I think there is a possible case for disability discrimination as well. People with disabilities are more likely to have plans change/not knowing what time they can make the station and would therefore be at higher risk of increased prices

What are people's opinions on this?

When I am travelling long distance I often book my tickets the same day (or night before), I have in the past bought tickets in advance that I never used because something came up that day and I couldn't go.

 

[bakerstreet]

https://twitter.com/scrivvyfloor/status/1747657049117171785

What are people's opinions on this?

When I am travelling long distance I often book my tickets the same day (or night before), I have in the past bought tickets in advance that I never used because something came up.

It’s a fair point.
Railway’s answer might be that the disabled railcard mitigates this. But really with the anytime single as the only flexible option that argument is weaker than it would have been had the anytime been reduced significantly in price to compensate for loss of off peak.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

Who would really travel from Edinburgh to London with no idea what time their train is going back?

If you need absolute certainty that you can get any train, you’ve still got the Anytime.

And advances/flexes are available 5 minutes until departure, so the argument there is no flexibility is absolutely not true.



Surely if a TOC is pricing sensibly, all a stop short/late start would be is more money in their pocket than the passenger would otherwise pay?

Sometimes I won't know which *day* I will be returning let alone what time. Previously I often bought a off peak return for that flexibilty, once single-leg pricing came into force I just bought the return off peak/super off peak on the day knowing there was a maximum I would be paying for the trip
With this new system I don't know what I'll be paying - it could be cheaper or it could be over twice as much as the super off peak fare (that's potentially £106 more each way)

It's not even saving me money: I just looked at EDB-KGX in a couple of weeks time - EVERY 70min ticket is more than a super off peak single (from Haymarket) by at least a tenner.

We also quite often split journeys to stop at nice railway pubs - that'll all go too

 

[Starmill]

Your example explicitly mentioned Anytime Returns. They don’t exist anymore on LNER.

Bit of a myth to be honest. Have you not seen Newcastle - Whitby, York - Carlisle and Retford - Nottingham?

 

[CyrusWuff]

It’s a fair point.
Railway’s answer might be that the disabled railcard mitigates this. But really with the anytime single as the only flexible option that argument is weaker than it would have been had the anytime been reduced significantly in price to compensate for loss of off peak.

LNER's response is likely to be that - subject to availability - you can buy an Advance or 70 minute Flex ticket right up to five minutes before departure.

No comfort for people who currently pay £83.80 for a Super Off-Peak Single from Kings Cross to Newcastle and suddenly find themselves having to pay £89.50 to £166.30 for an Advance, £86.20 to £186.30 for a Flex, or £192.80 for an Anytime of course.