LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Class83]

According to LNER, about 12% of sales on the trial flows are off-peak ticket types. The biggest single influencer of purchase is price. A proportion of those off-peak tickets will be on the day sales too.

Flexibility is a factor and getting that formulation rights for the semi-flexible ticket will be key. However, in real life the rankings for the different elements of the flexibility will vary. Being able to get a different train will be very high indeed. Paying a price that is similar to what they have been used to paying for an off-peak fare will also be very high. I suspect that 'being able to change at Peterborough and then go via Cambridge , stopping off for a cup of tea, and then going into Liverpool St because its a permitted route' will be a very long way down most people's list.

It would be interesting to see how well off-peak tickets sell when there is no cheaper advance available compared to when there is. Some people may chose flexibility, but I suspect a large amount simply chose the cheapest ticket offered.

 

[Starmill]

DFT have published results of Single Leg pricing fare trial







All rather inconclusive, but seems Single Leg Pricing, is costing more for some people

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/651d2974e4e658001459d8e8/dft-lner-slp-trial-evaluation-revenue-report.pdf

Interesting that removing the discount to customers making a round trip softened yeild a bit. I bet that was because people could book a flight one way and a train the other choosing whichever was the lower priced for each.

 

[yorksrob]

Or they only care about the bottom line (as Tories are wont to do).

This did fool a few journos though. I think it's time someone approached the Press with a scandal story about what it is really all about.

Indeed. They "bravely turned their tail and fled" as soon as the press and wider public cottoned on to the station ticket office closures.

If the wider implications for InterCity travel were publicised the stink may prompt a u-turn.

Not a lot of room to expand at Kings Cross

What ? There are lots and lots of short trains occupying the main line platforms of the Cross every day.

It's like (super) off-peak but not exactly. It's more granular as there can be many more steps of fares. Each ticket is still tied to a particular service (you can change by paying the difference), and so help prevent delay repay claim fraud. The only advantage of booking a ticket early is to get a seat reservation, not lower fare. The model to predict ridership can be improved over time. So in time all trains will be almost fully occupied. Occasionally when the prediction goes wrong, those who buy tickets late would have to stand, or pay extra to upgrade to first class.

So more complicated in other words !

Those are the same thing! The fares are being hiked to do exactly that - sweat the infrastructure and assets for a return. This is not hard to understand, but you refuse to engage with the bigger picture - along with lots of other posters.

You could not do the same thing with a half empty railway. This doesn't happen in a scenario where LNER's trains all carry fresh air.

The point is the accountants have decreed that Off Peaks both offer too good a value to the individual passenger and don't recoup a "fair" return to the railway - that is, the Treasury. In short, they think the railway is under-pricing its marginal capacity and they think the railway should be bringing in more money for each seat sold.

That is the political environment we are operating in. Hence, the removal of the cap, and the potential now for higher Advance and Semi Flex fares. Like everything else with this government, the obsession is with getting a return on investment - billions in subsidies are being poured into the railway and the Government wants better value for it. There is no point trying to pretend that isn't the case.

You get it correct in that its a political choice by a "government" in its death throes. There is nothing inevitable about it if the political narrative changes.

 

[Starmill]

I'd have hated it less, as I said above (as did others) if the publicity was "sorry, we have to do this because the Government have insisted we reduce taxpayer funding and with limited capacity it's the only way we viably can".

It looks like a small part of it is "some people who would have bought a return are now buying singles and choosing a cheaper competitor for the other direction, so we're going to regain that lost margin through price rises". Exactly as was said at the time of course.

Presumably the DfT hoped that 400 would be enough to force the use of 7-car sets (six not being possible with 80x).

ORR should have not permitted Lumo to include tip-down seats in the count, and should have prevented any special Lumo-specific luggage restrictions.

 

[modernrail]

It looks like a small part of it is "some people who would have bought a return are now buying singles and choosing a cheaper competitor for the other direction, so we're going to regain that lost margin through price rises". Exactly as was said at the time of course.


ORR should have not permitted Lumo to include tip-down seats in the count, and should have prevented any special Lumo-specific luggage restrictions.

They should be mandated 9 cars. Drives me mad every time I see them! Competition on this line is important - especially as the state operator just went rogue, pulled a handbrake turn and removed its own regulated fares. That means the need for competition just became very very real. We need more than half a train of competition and the path is precious.

 

[Krokodil]

I find it amusing that 174 pounds for a return trip to Edinburgh is seen as too cheap. There must be a lot of wealthy people out there.

How much are Mr and Mrs Sunak worth again?

All rather inconclusive, but seems Single Leg Pricing, is costing more for some people

There's a surprise.

There's myriad reasons why a Labour majority government would be better, and noticeably so

I don't argue with that, they could hardly be any worse. At the very least we'd see an end to the deliberate escalation of the industrial dispute (I am NOT saying that they'd be doling out money willy-nilly, I am saying that they'd take a more pragmatic approach). I doubt however that Labour ministers are likely to involve themselves in the minutiae of ticket types on the ECML.

ORR should have not permitted Lumo to include tip-down seats in the count

I wish that they didn't count tip-down seats for any purpose. The things are more trouble than they're worth and get needlessly added to rolling stock to bring up the "x thousand more seats per month" boasts by ministers (though we've seen less of that since overcrowding became less of a political issue, as it doesn't affect the SE as much as it did (the regions don't matter).

 

[MTR380A]

So more complicated in other words !

How is it more complicated? A fixed fare independent of the time to book means there will no longer be any need to book in advance, except for the seat reservation. Peak trains still raises more revenue and would be less overcrowded due to higher price signal. Yet the transition to (super) off-peak would be more gradual, getting rid of the oddity of empty last peak train and full first off-peak train.

The only complicated thing in this system is the model used to predict occupancy, possibly based on AI. I suppose many universities will be happy to work with DfT on it.

 

[MrJeeves]

Curiously Lumo only offer an Anytime Day Single, for which LNER can't be bothered (impartiality, anyone?) entering a description.

Once again, TOCs don't need to be impartial when selling tickets.

Why can't the entire network just be moved to a simple flat rate x number of pence per mile structure.

Would be easier overall - and fairer!

Don't suppose you're missing "Harper" from the end of your username?

 

[yorksrob]

How is it more complicated? A fixed fare independent of the time to book means there will no longer be any need to book in advance, except for the seat reservation. Peak trains still raises more revenue and would be less overcrowded due to higher price signal. Yet the transition to (super) off-peak would be more gradual, getting rid of the oddity of empty last peak train and full first off-peak train.

The only complicated thing in this system is the model used to predict occupancy, possibly based on AI. I suppose many universities will be happy to work with DfT on it.

A range of fares is always going to be more complicated than a few gradations between Peak/off-peak/super op, albeit a predictable fare is still better than an unpredictable one, so less complicated than AP.

 

[Starmill]

I wish that they didn't count tip-down seats for any purpose.

I most certainly agree that'd be the ideal but unfortunately we're now a bit stuck with them.

 

[Kite159]

I wish that they didn't count tip-down seats for any purpose. The things are more trouble than they're worth and get needlessly added to rolling stock to bring up the "x thousand more seats per month" boasts by ministers (though we've seen less of that since overcrowding became less of a political issue, as it doesn't affect the SE as much as it did (the regions don't matter).

Especially tip-down seats located in the narrow section next to the toilet where passengers only get in the way of others when they want to pass to use the toilet.

-----

A quick glance so far on Easter Monday and prices are not that bad so far (for Edinburgh to London), certainly nothing over the old price cap. Although no doubt the closer the time gets the more £100+ fares will start to appear.

 

[Watershed]

Once again, TOCs don't need to be impartial when selling tickets.

Except when it suits them, LNER are more than happy to use the excuse of 'impartial retailing' to threaten ticket office staff and other retailers with consequences if they sell "overdistance" tickets (such as London-Haymarket).

This, of course, being the very same requirement they dismissed as outdated when it came to ticket office closures... Funny, that!

They are an utterly unscrupulous company.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"London North Eastern Robbery" anyone?

I so want to read that as the headline in a tabloid...

 

[Krokodil]

Looking at fares on their website, the matrix shows columns for "Fixed", "Semi Flexible", "Fully Flexible", "Advance Single" and "Anytime Day Single".

Who looked at that and said "yes, that's much simpler". What's the difference between "Fixed" and "Advance Single"? In most cases different prices or availabilities are listed so they must be different, but how? They're both tickets tying you to a particular train. And why bother listing Lumo's Anytime Day Singles under their own column? For some ticket types you can hover over the "i" to see more details but on others the "i" is still there but does nothing.

Apparently the "Anytime Day Single" is "Only Valid on Booked Lumo Services" - so how can it be described as "Anytime" then (set aside the operator restriction for a moment and just consider the "booked" bit)?

If I want simplicity, I'll look to SBB as an example. Three tickets offered:
- "Supersaver" which is basically an Advance
- "Point to point" which is basically an Anytime, only it's still reasonably priced, even before applying a Half Fare Card
- "Saver Day Pass" which appears to be a 1-day all line rover ticket but is purchased in advanced for a variable but very reasonable price (£88 on one random day I looked at) and is non-refundable

 

[Watershed]

If I want simplicity, I'll look to SBB as an example. Three tickets offered:
- "Supersaver" which is basically an Advance
- "Point to point" which is basically an Anytime, only it's still reasonably priced, even before applying a Half Fare Card
- "Saver Day Pass" which appears to be a 1-day all line rover ticket but is purchased in advanced for a variable but very reasonable price (£88 on one random day I looked at) and is non-refundable

And more to the point, you can buy tickets for international journeys and across different operators. Within Switzerland you also buy tickets and plan journeys across all modes of public transport. It's just a completely different mindset.

 

[yorksrob]

And more to the point, you can buy tickets for international journeys and across different operators. Within Switzerland you also buy tickets and plan journeys across all modes of public transport. It's just a completely different mindset.

One involving functioning brain cells, presumably

 

[GoneSouth]

XC are a disgrace (even some of the staff I know agree with that!).

Their problems could largely disappear with extra capacity/longer trains.

I used to say the same but isn’t the problem largely due to DFT not allowing them to do anything about their problems?

 

[Krokodil]

but isn’t the problem largely due to DFT not allowing them to do anything about their problems?

I'd say "almost entirely" instead of "largely". Going back to when the Voyagers were ordered and the SRA vetoed Chris Green's request to order longer sets.

 

[paul1609]

I suppose the best way to put it is, it’s not LNERs change - it’s the DfTs. This IS the DfT trialling the removal of regulated fares more than anything. It’s not really a trial of flex fares.

Surely the operator of LNER branded trains is Dft OLR trains Ltd (or whatever) so LNER doesn't actually exist as a separate entity other than it is a wholly owned subsidiary company?

 

[mad_rich]

Another effect of removing Super Off-Peak, which I don't think has been mentioned.

Current you can get an onboard upgrade at Weekend First prices during the Super Off-Peak.

I guess that's gone too.

 

[bakerstreet]

As predicted (see below)

Anyone here still supportive of this move to ‘simpler fares?’

Yes some fares that day are cheaper but this 125.90 fare is being sold 2 months from travel so what fares might be available closer to travel?

Anyone still on the fence about the REAL intentions of LNER and their new fare "simplification"?
A train on 9/3/24. Ordinarily the £83.80 Super OffPeak would have prohibited more expensive advances being sold, not any more. A 66.5% fare rise. Of course, nobody will read this!

https://x.com/robjbeech/status/1751208055277047868?s=46

 

[Wallsendmag]

As predicted (see below)

Anyone here still supportive of this move to ‘simpler fares?’



View attachment 151212

https://x.com/robjbeech/status/1751208055277047868?s=46

Can you show the journey details as I can’t think of a KGX to NCL,BWK or EDB journey that
needs two changes and all legs are LNER

 

[bakerstreet]

Can you show the journey details as I can’t think of a KGX to NCL,BWK or EDB journey that
needs two changes and all legs are LNER

Edited to show details above.. Original X post didn’t show full details of journey so I looked it up separately.

You’re right it’s a Northern TPE LNER variety pack.

Who is setting this Advance fare?

 

[Krokodil]

Can you show the journey details as I can’t think of a KGX to NCL,BWK or EDB journey that
needs two changes and all legs are LNER

I've just looked up that date. There appears to be engineering work between Durham and York. The itinerary shown involves Northern from Newcastle to Thornaby and TPE to York. Itinerarys not involving Northern (so using replacement buses laid on by TPE/LNER/XC, or the hourly direct LNER train running on diesel via Sunderland) are showing cheaper Advances. You could dismiss the previous poster's example as an exception, but the fact remains that the price for using that particular train has risen dramatically with a loss in flexiblity to boot.

If you want ANY kind of flexiblity without the rip-off Anytime fare, it'll cost you £80 (so only £3.80 cheaper than the SSS which could be used on any train you like on a Saturday) and you can only choose the LNER direct trains or LNER's buses +-70min from the original departure.

 

[embers25]

It seems the advances that include linked TPE services are crazy pricy. Another clear example of the great LNER rip off is below. Cheapest fare from Newcastle to Kings Cross on the 0939 on Feb 11 is £154.10 which is an LNER + connections advance with zero flexibility. Newcastle-Clapham Junction on the exact same services is a £89.20 Super Off Peak Single. I get the below journey is not LNER throughout but it is subject to the new LNER rip off fare trial.

 

[Envy123]

Whelp, looks like I'll need to do Advances for my weekly commute on Fridays from Peterborough to London. No more off-peak travelcards, it seems.

 

[alistairlees]

Whelp, looks like I'll need to do Advances for my weekly commute on Fridays from Peterborough to London. No more off-peak travelcards, it seems.

Why do you think that?

 

[Envy123]

Why do you think that?

I looked at next Friday and the LNER website wouldn't allow me to buy an off-peak travelcard. Though, on the other hand, I don't get the semi-flexible tickets on this flow, so maybe I can still buy it at a ticket office. Quite confusing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I looked at next Friday and the LNER website wouldn't allow me to buy an off-peak travelcard. Though, on the other hand, I don't get the semi-flexible tickets on this flow, so maybe I can still buy it at a ticket office. Quite confusing.

There appears to be a bug regarding the sale of Off Peak tickets on LNER services at present. Use the forum site instead.

 

[STINT47]

This change will definitely make things simpler for passengers currently using super off peak tickets. A quick look at the new prices and its a simple decision to drive or fly instead