LNER to retain some Class 91s & Mk4 sets for a bit longer

[hexagon789]

Well the improved performance will undoubtedly help, as will the faster track configuration just outside Kings Cross. And other infrastructure improvements, notably the Werrington grade separation, will help reduce conflicting moves. But there is a history of achieving 4 hr timings only for them to be eased going back to the original electrification scheme, so I understand your scepticism.

It should help of course giving a better approach to King's X, it will be interesting to see if the 0540 Flying Scotsman's performance improves.

But I am continually reminded of the first time BR introduced it's 3h59 timings, after just one timetable they put the usual recovery margins in and lengthened it to 4h15. They and GNER both brought back and withdrew the 3h59 timings over the years (I think GNER only ran one each way to such timings while BR had two each way), but history has a way of showing told often that improved timings are introduced only to be gradually or quickly eroded by less impressive but much easier to maintain timings.

I'm very interested to see how this all pans out with the 225s and the timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

Taken from the other thread so as to not go off topic - if sounds to me like LNER are making preparations for the Edinburgh fasts to be dominated by the twelve retained 91s then.

Why else would they drop two calls (which will reduce the need to decelerate and then accelerate again) and move the Aberdeen and Inverness extensions to the semi?

Retaining 91/Mk4 for Edinburgh Fasts is the proposal in the track access application for the eventual 6.5 tph timetable. But a number of posters have subsequently suggested that they’ll now be used on Leeds services instead. I guess until LNER actually state something in print or online we just don’t know...

 

[hexagon789]

Retaining 91/Mk4 for Edinburgh Fasts is the proposal in the track access application for the eventual 6.5 tph timetable. But a number of posters have subsequently suggested that they’ll now be used on Leeds services instead. I guess until LNER actually state something in print or online we just don’t know...

Edinburgh seems far more logical than Leeds given the traction characteristics of 225 sets.

 

[ainsworth74]

Edinburgh seems far more logical than Leeds given the traction characteristics of 225 sets.

Leeds reduces the number of different driver and guard depots that have to maintain competence of them though. London to Edinburgh means that basically every depot would have to sign them.

 

[hexagon789]

Leeds reduces the number of different driver and guard depots that have to maintain competence of them though. London to Edinburgh means that basically every depot would have to sign them.

The issue with that is then when there is significant service disruption trying to find crews that sign the 225s. Surely the more depots that sign them the better in that respect or is it just taken as a risk and a contingency planned out?

 

[YorksLad12]

Retaining 91/Mk4 for Edinburgh Fasts is the proposal in the track access application for the eventual 6.5 tph timetable. But a number of posters have subsequently suggested that they’ll now be used on Leeds services instead. I guess until LNER actually state something in print or online we just don’t know...

I'd assumed Edinburgh (or even York), as the Leeds services sometimes get extended to Harrogate. You can't do that with a 91. Sticking with the 80x fleets for Leeds makes sense, with the various extensions to Harrogate, Bradford FS and Huddersfield at different times. That said, I saw the shorter set in Leeds earlier this month or the end of last. Forgot to clock what time it set off and what realtimetrains might have said but it was clearly missing one First and one Standard coach.

 

[Ianno87]

The issue with that is then when there is significant service disruption trying to find crews that sign the 225s. Surely the more depots that sign them the better in that respect or is it just taken as a risk and a contingency planned out?

Presumably it comes down to £££ cost of keeping more drivers competent on 225s balanced against the beneft for a relatively small part of the fleet, when it can probably be managed around most of the time during disruption.

 

[HST43257]

Taken from the other thread so as to not go off topic - if sounds to me like LNER are making preparations for the Edinburgh fasts to be dominated by the twelve retained 91s then.

Why else would they drop two calls (which will reduce the need to decelerate and then accelerate again) and move the Aberdeen and Inverness extensions to the semi?

Would certainly make sense

 

[ainsworth74]

I'd assumed Edinburgh (or even York), as the Leeds services sometimes get extended to Harrogate. You can't do that with a 91. Sticking with the 80x fleets for Leeds makes sense, with the various extensions to Harrogate, Bradford FS and Huddersfield at different times. That said, I saw the shorter set in Leeds earlier this month or the end of last. Forgot to clock what time it set off and what realtimetrains might have said but it was clearly missing one First and one Standard coach.

It does of course happen on a fairly regular pattern which can be planned around rather than by surprise! Plus it would be no different with the 80x fleets. There's going to be 42 801s out there eventually which can only run under the wires and only 23 bi-mode 800s so even an entirely 80x fleet to Leeds would have exactly the same problem as a mixed 80x and 225 fleet.

Presumably it comes down to £££ cost of keeping more drivers competent on 225s balanced against the beneft for a relatively small part of the fleet, when it can probably be managed around most of the time during disruption.

That's what I was getting at and I don't know the answer to that question but I don't think that it's quite as cut and dried as it may first appear that "of course they'll run to Edinburgh!".

 

[YorksLad12]

It does of course happen on a fairly regular pattern which can be planned around rather than by surprise! Plus it would be no different with the 80x fleets. There's going to be 42 801s out there eventually which can only run under the wires and only 23 bi-mode 800s so even an entirely 80x fleet to Leeds would have exactly the same problem as a mixed 80x and 225 fleet.

What is this 'planning' of which you speak?

Good point on the 801s. It did occur to me afterwards: if there is to be a third Leeds-London service then they could be running Edinburgh -> London -> Leeds -> London -> Edinburgh, depending on the frequency and number of sets available. Time will tell.

 

[ash39]

What is this 'planning' of which you speak?

Good point on the 801s. It did occur to me afterwards: if there is to be a third Leeds-London service then they could be running Edinburgh -> London -> Leeds -> London -> Edinburgh, depending on the frequency and number of sets available. Time will tell.

I can't see that happening anytime soon. Capacity heading east out of Leeds is hardly in plentiful supply, and as mentioned above you'd need to use 800's for the diesel section. As these are already needed for the Inverness and Aberdeen services, would you really want to extend what is already a massive journey by adding another half an hour to go via Leeds??

 

[YorksLad12]

No - I didn't mean London to Edinburgh via Leeds. I meant trains running an Edinburgh - London - Leeds - London - Edinburgh diagram.

(Not that I wouldn't mind extending Leeds services east/northwards, but that's a thought for a different thread.)

 

[Helvellyn]

No - I didn't mean London to Edinburgh via Leeds. I meant trains running an Edinburgh - London - Leeds - London - Edinburgh diagram.

(Not that I wouldn't mind extending Leeds services east/northwards, but that's a thought for a different thread.)

What in airline terms would be called a 'W' flight rather than an out and back.

 

[hexagon789]

Presumably it comes down to £££ cost of keeping more drivers competent on 225s balanced against the beneft for a relatively small part of the fleet, when it can probably be managed around most of the time during disruption.

Very likely, too often the seemingly more flexible options get ruled out on cost.

I would still say using them to Edinburgh is more logical given the need for bi-modes on some Leeds workings and the 91s being more suited to long-distance high-speed cruising

 

[Paul Kerr]

Apologies if this has been posted already, but Today's Railways lists that 10 Class 91s and seven MK4 rakes are to be retained by LNER until the end of 2023.

Locomotives: 91101/91105/91106/91107/91109/91110/91111/91114/91127/91130

Coach sets: BN06/BN08/BN12/BN13/BN15/BN17/BN26

If true, there is no place for the IC liveried loco which is a shame.

 

[43 302]

Apologies if this has been posted already, but Today's Railways lists that 10 Class 91s and seven MK4 rakes are to be retained by LNER until the end of 2023.

Locomotives: 91101/91105/91106/91107/91109/91110/91111/91114/91127/91130

Coach sets: BN06/BN08/BN12/BN13/BN15/BN17/BN26

If true, there is no place for the IC liveried loco which is a shame.

I can't imagine 91119 not being one of the last ones after it's near complete rebuild. Also with the current situation regarding 91110 + 91111, perhaps if the above was true it might be changed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if this has been posted already, but Today's Railways lists that 10 Class 91s and seven MK4 rakes are to be retained by LNER until the end of 2023.

Locomotives: 91101/91105/91106/91107/91109/91110/91111/91114/91127/91130

Coach sets: BN06/BN08/BN12/BN13/BN15/BN17/BN26

If true, there is no place for the IC liveried loco which is a shame.

Seven rakes of Mk4s is far closer to the originally suggested six in the ECML track access for the May 2020 timetable (which uses superseded dates). I wonder if it’s just that the ten Class 91s has been accidentally reported as ten whole sets?

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if this has been posted already, but Today's Railways lists that 10 Class 91s and seven MK4 rakes are to be retained by LNER until the end of 2023.

Locomotives: 91101/91105/91106/91107/91109/91110/91111/91114/91127/91130

Coach sets: BN06/BN08/BN12/BN13/BN15/BN17/BN26

If true, there is no place for the IC liveried loco which is a shame.

I don't think we have had a list before. 91119 does seem like quite an omission though, I can't help wondering if it should be in the list.

I don't suppose it also said whether the sets were getting dropped to seven coaches+DVT?

 

[Fuzzytop]

That's similar to Virgin EC proposed numbers then, especially if the rakes are shortened. It contradicts the suggestion in RAIL magazine earlier this year that 12 Class 91s for 10 Mk4 sets were being retained.

Surely the Dec 2021 timetable will require use of the loco-hauled sets more intensively than once the Azuma rollout completes this Summer (three diagrams iirc).

If so, I wonder if there's any prospect of supplementing these numbers with another couple out of storage in 2021. (I suspect I know the answer to that.)

 

[43 302]

Worth noting that 91127 is back in service for the first time in a while. Will be operating 1F24 1600 KGX to EDB with BN26.

 

[43096]

I don't think we have had a list before. 91119 does seem like quite an omission though, I can't help wondering if it should be in the list.

I don't suppose it also said whether the sets were getting dropped to seven coaches+DVT?

If 91119 is due major exam/overhaul during the period then it makes sense to off lease it. Such decisions are made for sound engineering reasons and not the fact the loco has a set of vinyls that somehow make it special.

 

[43 302]

Does anyone actually know whether they will be seven coaches? All I've heard is rumours, as far as I am aware, they will be 9 coaches.

 

[SteveyBee131]

If 91119 is due major exam/overhaul during the period then it makes sense to off lease it. Such decisions are made for sound engineering reasons and not the fact the loco has a set of vinyls that somehow make it special.

Originally, 91119 was set to be the last 91 in service with LNER, which was part of the reason for the Swallow relivery. However, that was before the changes to timetables were announced which will need more trains in service than Azumas are available.

That means that the 91s will be in service for longer, but it also means that they'll be in service after '19 is ready for a bigger exam/maintenance, which wouldn't be cost effective for a short period. As 43096 says, there's more to running trains than special or heritage liveries.

 

[hexagon789]

If 91119 is due major exam/overhaul during the period then it makes sense to off lease it. Such decisions are made for sound engineering reasons and not the fact the loco has a set of vinyls that somehow make it special.

It wasn't quite so much the vinyls (though that would've been a nice touch) as the fact that afaik it had had substantial work done to it not long ago, unless I'm confusing it with another loco?

 

[SteveyBee131]

It wasn't quite so much the vinyls (though that would've been a nice touch) as the fact that afaik it had had substantial work done to it not long ago, unless I'm confusing it with another loco?

It was supposed to be the last 91 to have a major exam, and therefore the last in service, along with the other celebrity liveries ones. But that was before the timetable enhancements needing more trains than available Azumas were announced.

 

[hexagon789]

It was supposed to be the last 91 to have a major exam, and therefore the last in service, along with the other celebrity liveries ones. But that was before the timetable enhancements needing more trains than available Azumas were announced.

So I was sort of thinking along the right lines; it will be a bit of a shame though if the list is correct and it isn't being retained until the end.

 

[SteveyBee131]

Indeed you were. You're right it will be a shame if said list turns out correct. But as always with the railways, the press (even the railway press) sometimes needs a pinch of salt, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see!

 

[43094]

The list above is correct as things stand.

 

[CTS1990]

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1285915061056344066

Others may have seen this recent update about which 91s are being retained. Although, if I am reading this correctly, all are being withdrawn before 2023...?

 

[hexagon789]

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1285915061056344066

Others may have seen this recent update about which 91s are being retained. Although, if I am reading this correctly, all are being withdrawn before 2023...?

I read it as meaning SOME 91s would be withdrawn before 2023, but equally SOME would remain in service until then.