LNER travel irregularity- no ticket onboard

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by Skodakid, 24 Nov 2018.

  1. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    But the defendant might try to persuade the court of an abuse of process if the offence occurred only as a direct result of the railway's own incorrect information (website) or actions (selling tickets previously in similar circumstances without comment). (The SRA disallowed the latter in respect of Penalty Fares.)
     
  2. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    After reading a few of the posts I was ready to blame you for not buying before you board, but as you wanted to pay cash and this facility was not available to you, and you would not have had sufficient time to pay for your journey, I'd now say you're most definitely in the right. I don't know if you're familiar with the NRCoT, but it may be worth reading over it, in particular, section 6 for this case.

    Section 6.1.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) say, and I quote:

    If you feel that the connection time isn't enough time to buy your ticket before boarding, and if the guard didn't come round on your train to Peterborough, I'd say plain as day you had every right to purchase on board, as if it was a ticket office leaving you eligible to the various discounts.

    I'd fight this 110%. Feel free to post a copy of a draft letter on here for us to peruse over. I feel that a regular guard would have let you buy on board, but the RPI officer may have just been taking a 'black and white' stance (not that that is in any way excusable)
     
  3. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Please note that the information boxes have no legal standing:
     
  4. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    Its also worth pointing out that if you have previously been in this situation but have been sold a ticket without any discount you should be eligible for then if you have evidence of this it might be worth mentioning it. It’s very unlikely you’ll get any money back for this but I feel it serves two purposes.
    1. It shows that they have previously acted incorrectly by not allowing you the option to buy from the full range of dates thus profiting from this.
    2. They have failed to be consistent in their approach to this situation. Right or wrong they have allowed you to buy on board in the past so why not this time.

    These issues need to be brought up in a polite manner, as I said, you won’t gain any more from this but it ought to help your case and help them see that staff training has been unsuccessful in this instance.
     
  5. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Well right above the boxes there's:

    Which is pretty much to the same effect.
     
  6. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    Why didn't you use the TVM on the platform at Peterborough?
     
  7. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    I have changed at Peterborough before and I have never noticed that there are TVMs on any of the platforms. If there even are such TVMs, do they allow you to purchase a ticket from another station?

    Can the passenger be expected to know the layout and facilities of their interchange station, and/or to find a member of station staff to find out if there are any such ticketing facilities?

    I'm afraid with an 8/9 minutes connection time at a reasonably large station such as Peterborough - where, incidentally, it's very easy to end up changing platforms at the 'wrong' end, leaving you to clamber along the long ramps - I would not be doing anything other than looking to see what platform my connection is on, and going there tout de suite. Even more so if delays reduce this to 4 or 5 minutes.
     
  8. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    There is a cash and card accepting TVM on platform 1 and it allows tickets to be purchased to start from a different station. It's right by the bottom of the stairs from the footbridge.
     
  9. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    My view on this incident is as follows:

    1. Board train without ticket as no open ticket office and no machine and no machine accepting preferred method of payment. Tick
    2. No guard comes through train. Tick
    3. Arrive at station just as a connecting train to destination is arriving so board it. Tick
    4. Guard comes through connecting train therefore this is the first opportunity to purchase. Tick.

    The OP should not have been penalised.
     
    Last edited: 25 Nov 2018
  10. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I don't dispute that, just pointing out that the information boxes shouldn't be relied upon to support a claim against or defend against action by a TOC.
     
  11. gingerheid

    gingerheid Member

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    That's true, but LNER will not wish to bear civil liability for a breach of contract where the prejudice to the customer is a criminal prosecution...
     
  12. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I aven't read anything yet that suggests the OP has been penalised. If anything, it appears that the OP hasn't yet paid anything for the journey. It is entirely correct that the OP should not have to pay more than the fare due but until something other than that is requested much of the criticism on LNER appears, to me, to be misplaced.
     
  13. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Given the circumstances, I severely doubt that LNER had a legal justification for taking the OP's details. That itself may constitute an offence under data protection legislation. But it is a matter best discussed in more detail once the initial matter of the report of the irregularity has been dealt with.
     
  14. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Let's resume the discussion once more information comes to light.
     
  15. Skodakid

    Skodakid Member

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    Firstly I want to say what a great forum this is and what a great source of information you all are regarding such ticket fiascos.

    Today I got the letter:

    [​IMG]


    I had already sent them a letter explaining that I could not buy a ticket at Whittlesey and that I thought I could buy a ticket on board the train to Kings Cross from Peterborough.
    My main gripe with all this is the lack of consistency- so if a revenue protection officer saw me on the train ticketless I get all this grief- if a normal ticket conductor sees me I simply pay a full single fair- this just seems a ridiculous way of operating.

    Anyway- I phoned the number to pay the £157.
    I mentioned to the woman that I was paying despite the fact that if I went to court I’d win because I’d done nothing wrong- ie: caught a connecting train that was departing imminently.
    She replied with the usual mantra- there are ticket facilities at Peterborough and I shouldn’t have boarded the train- 100% ignoring what I’d said regarding legislation about connecting trains/tickets. (I am an expert you see having listened to you lot).
    Anyway, the woman seemed to soften in tone slightly and asked me to hold the line.
    She then returned to the phone and said there was a note on my file saying not to charge £100 admin and only charge £57.
    So I paid the £57 and that’s it, all over.
    It seems odd there was a note on my file saying only charge £57.........in that case why did they send a letter asking for £157 ?
    Anyway- it ended well and thanks everyone.
     
  16. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Was £57 the fare you were expecting to pay?

    Ie. You made a single journey at "peak" time?

    If so I'm glad to hear LNER relented. But they are still an awful company for customer "service" it has to be said, with little evidence of knowledgeable customer service staff.

    If you paid more than the appropriate fare, I would be writing to Mike Ross requesting a refund of the difference.
     
  17. Skodakid

    Skodakid Member

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    I’m not sure what the standard fair should have been, I’m just pleased it’s over and I paid 57 and not 157!
     
  18. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    That would depend on two factors. Firstly, whether your journey was a single or a return and if the latter what fare was paid to get back to Whittlesea. Secondly, which day and time you travelled.
     
  19. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Well, what time train did you take from Peterborough (was it before or after the 10:10 service, which is the first Off-Peak LNER service)? Were you making a return journey (i.e. did you buy another single ticket to get back)? Depending on those factors, then whilst £57.00 is still a lot less than £157.00, it is possible they may have charged you the incorrect fare.
     
  20. Whistler40145

    Whistler40145 Established Member

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    How would @robbeach have reached the ticket office at Peterborough railway station when he didn't have a ticket from Whittlesey and being unable to pass through the ticket gates?
     
  21. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    I appreciate it’s early but do check your post thoroughly for glaring errors. Not only have you attempted to ‘tag’ the wrong person but you’ve also provided the incorrect spelling.

    A valid question though but generally an explanation that you couldn’t buy a ticket and need to buy one would get you through. Even if a member of staff accompanied you to the window.
     
  22. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    I agree that if you bought a ticket for the return portion you should be refunded the difference between the ticket you wanted andthe tickets you ended up buying.

    I cant be the only one disappointed to learn that had you not questioned it this magical note would have never been found and they’d be £100 better off. How many times does this happen I wonder.
     
  23. Skodakid

    Skodakid Member

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    There is a ticket machine on platform 1 at Peterborough so you don’t need to exit the barriers to the ticket office.
    However, in the past staff have simply let me through the barriers to the ticket office when I’ve explained I’ve come via Whittlesey.

    On this occasion I simply got on the connecting train because I didn’t want to miss it and be late arriving in London.
     
  24. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I do not think there is any further help we can provide the OP until they state what time they were travelling and if they made a return journey.
     
  25. Nibbles09

    Nibbles09 New Member

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    Also begs the question if no member of staff from LNER had come through the train at what point would you have bought a ticket. Therefore the intent, potentially to fare evade you already started the process. I think you got off very lightly. You’ve paid the fine lesson learned, now move on
     
  26. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    i.e. you did not delay your journey to purchase a ticket, thus the earliest opportunity was on the LNER service which is allowable.
     
  27. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    At the excess fares window at Kings Cross , if that still exists, if not the ticket office.

    What "lesson" do you think has been learnt?

    It is LNER who need to learn the lesson that a customer who boards at a station with no facility to issue the customer a ticket using their chosen valid payment method is entitled to the full range of fares on board.

    I'd you are suggesting otherwise then you are very wrong and I would find that concerning to make such accusations when there is no evidence of wrongdoing, so I hope you are just mistaken.

    I do find it very concerning how the rail industry treats some customers.
     
    Last edited: 7 Dec 2018 at 13:17
  28. Nibbles09

    Nibbles09 New Member

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    However if that person wasn’t challenged at any point to buy a ticket and leaves King Cross station through the open barriers then doesn’t that amount to fare evading
     
  29. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If the ticket office was open then yes that would.
     
  30. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Just because it is possible to commit the offence of fare evasion by starting your journey at an unbarriered station and then failing to encounter staff en route (and then not using the ticket office at your destination), does not mean that merely boarding at Whittlesea means you are committing an offence. That's like saying, because your car is able to exceed the legal speed limit, you are guilty of speeding as soon as you turn on the engine!
     

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