LNR (WMT) ticket office at Euston to close

[Wolfie]

I wouldn't be surprised if some manager thought they could ignore legalities of this to get the thing done more quickly.

It assumes that the consultation is a rubber stamp exercise rather than a proper opportunity to change decisions.

 

[Hadders]

I wouldn't be surprised if some manager thought they could ignore legalities of this to get the thing done more quickly.

Agreed. I don't object to the ticket office closure as such, as long as there are sufficient safeguards in place so that passengers aren't disadvantaged, but what I do disagree with is someone thinking they can ride roughshod over the correct closure process.

This is a regulated ticket office and the closure process exists for good reasons.

It assumes that the consultation is a rubber stamp exercise rather than a proper opportunity to change decisions.

Thankfully when someone pointed out the error to the DfT they decided that the consultation process hadn't been correctly followed.

London Travelwatch aren't blameless in this though as they should've noticed this gaping error.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It assumes that the consultation is a rubber stamp exercise rather than a proper opportunity to change decisions.

Of course it is. It is very clear in this situation that clearing the ramp is a priority over having a booking office there, and also that there is no sense in moving it elsewhere in the station as you can just use the Avanti ticket office - it only had any utility in that exact position, i.e. between the Tube suburban "tunnel" and the gateline. Therefore the ticket office should close. Due process should be followed purely so as not to set precedent for being able to ignore it to suit, but I can't see any other sensible outcome in this specific situation.

 

[Hadders]

Of course it is. It is very clear in this situation that clearing the ramp is a priority over having a booking office there, and also that there is no sense in moving it elsewhere in the station as you can just use the Avanti ticket office - it only had any utility in that exact position, i.e. between the Tube suburban "tunnel" and the gateline. Therefore the ticket office should close. Due process should8- beplatforms followed purely so as not to set precedent for being able to ignore it to suit, but I can't see any other sensible outcome in this specific situation.

There are some important safeguards that need to be out in place. For example:

Anyone legitimately arriving at the barriered platforms (8-11) without a ticket can purchase one from the excess fares window which is part of the WMT ticket office. There need to be suitable mitigation put in place (directing passengers to the Avanti ticket office wouldn't be appropriate) as I could see passengers being accused of all sorts of wrongdoing (Euston staff don't have the best reputation). Granted it is an edge case but that doesn't mean it measures should not be put in place.

Boundary Zone tickets should be available on all TVMs at the station
Can Groupsave tickets be sold at all TVMs at the station
Are WMT only tickets prominently displayed on all TVMs at the station

These are just some of the things that a proper consultation should consider and make recommendations on.

 

[Wolfie]

Of course it is. It is very clear in this situation that clearing the ramp is a priority over having a booking office there, and also that there is no sense in moving it elsewhere in the station as you can just use the Avanti ticket office - it only had any utility in that exact position, i.e. between the Tube suburban "tunnel" and the gateline. Therefore the ticket office should close. Due process should be followed purely so as not to set precedent for being able to ignore it to suit, but I can't see any other sensible outcome in this specific situation.

With respect to this particular consultation l agree sadly. But there should be no precedent for consultation being a formality.

There are some important safeguards that need to be out in place. For example:

Anyone legitimately arriving at the barriered platforms (8-11) without a ticket can purchase one from the excess fares window which is part of the WMT ticket office. There need to be suitable mitigation put in place (directing passengers to the Avanti ticket office wouldn't be appropriate) as I could see passengers being accused of all sorts of wrongdoing (Euston staff don't have the best reputation). Granted it is an edge case but that doesn't mean it measures should not be put in place.

Boundary Zone tickets should be available on all TVMs at the station
Can Groupsave tickets be sold at all TVMs at the station
Are WMT only tickets prominently displayed on all TVMs at the station

These are just some of the things that a proper consultation should consider and make recommendations on.

Agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are some important safeguards that need to be out in place. For example:

Anyone legitimately arriving at the barriered platforms (8-11) without a ticket can purchase one from the excess fares window which is part of the WMT ticket office. There need to be suitable mitigation put in place (directing passengers to the Avanti ticket office wouldn't be appropriate) as I could see passengers being accused of all sorts of wrongdoing (Euston staff don't have the best reputation). Granted it is an edge case but that doesn't mean it measures should not be put in place.

Gateline staff could (and I assume will) have a portable ticket machine as happens on most gatelines for this purpose. Very, very few stations still have a "traditional" excess fares window - indeed I can't think of a single one.

Boundary Zone tickets should be available on all TVMs at the station
Can Groupsave tickets be sold at all TVMs at the station

Why does this matter in this context provided the Avanti ticket office can sell them? It's not at all unusual for TVMs not to sell these. I do think this could do with being fixed, but it's a wider issue that isn't of relevance to the closure of this specific ticket office.

Are WMT only tickets prominently displayed on all TVMs at the station

This would be fixed by putting the two WMT TVMs from the ramp (which I assume are being removed too, as any queue at them causes an obstruction?) in the Avanti ticket machine area, or on the concourse in a location where you couldn't miss them if you were walking towards the booking office.

 

[paul1609]

To be honest I'm more concerned about the loss of the Costa for the Cappuccino and Bacon Roll on my cheap 07.46 football away day trips to the North West

 

[Hadders]

Gateline staff could (and I assume will) have a portable ticket machine as happens on most gatelines for this purpose. Very, very few stations still have a "traditional" excess fares window - indeed I can't think of a single one.

Never assume anything! The WMT ticket office is a regulated ticket office. A here today gone tomorrow franchisee could quite easily decide to employ a rent a mob brigade on the gate line with no ticketing knowledge, and treat everyone arriving without a ticket as a criminal. Admittedly there won't be many cases of this but it only needs the TVM to be out of order at Cheddington ot Wolverton (or any other station after ticket office hours) for there to be potential problems.

Otherwise where does this end - removal of first and last trains, closing stations etc...

Why does this matter in this context provided the Avanti ticket office can sell them? It's not at all unusual for TVMs not to sell these. I do think this could do with being fixed, but it's a wider issue that isn't of relevance to the closure of this specific ticket office.

It's about making things easier for passengers. Boundary Zone and Groupsave tickets are notoriously difficult to obtain from TVMs but that's not a problem as passengers can use ticket offices. Until we start to close them as well....

This would be fixed by putting the two WMT TVMs from the ramp (which I assume are being removed too, as any queue at them causes an obstruction?) in the Avanti ticket machine area.

The consultation needs to tell them to do that as a condition of the closure and have it agreed in writing. Otherwise in a year's time what happens when WMT decide they want to remove them because they're a bit of a pain to operate, or they want to make them card only because it's a bit of a pain for them to handle cash without a nearby ticket office.

As I've said consistently throughout this, I don't object to the closure of this ticket office so long as the correct closure process is followed, and appropriate mitigation measures are put in place so that passengers are not unduly disadvantaged.

 

[Wolfie]

Never assume anything! The WMT ticket office is a regulated ticket office. A here today gone tomorrow franchisee could quite easily decide to employ a rent a mob brigade on the gate line with no ticketing knowledge, and treat everyone arriving without a ticket as a criminal. Admittedly there won't be many cases of this but it only needs the TVM to be out of order at Cheddington ot Wolverton (or any other station after ticket office hours) for there to be potential problems.

Otherwise where does this end - removal of first and last trains, closing stations etc...


It's about making things easier for passengers. Boundary Zone and Groupsave tickets are notoriously difficult to obtain from TVMs but that's not a problem as passengers can use ticket offices. Until we start to close them as well....


The consultation needs to tell them to do that as a condition of the closure and have it agreed in writing. Otherwise in a year's time what happens when WMT decide they want to remove them because they're a bit of a pain to operate, or they want to make them card only because it's a bit of a pain for them to handle cash without a nearby ticket office.

As I've said consistently throughout this, I don't object to the closure of this ticket office so long as the correct closure process is followed, and appropriate mitigation measures are put in place so that passengers are not unduly disadvantaged.

Spot on. If corner-cutting on procedures and provision is allowed at a major London terminal what the hell hope is there elsewhere in the country?

 

[philthetube]

There are some important safeguards that need to be out in place. For example:

Anyone legitimately arriving at the barriered platforms (8-11) without a ticket can purchase one from the excess fares window which is part of the WMT ticket office. There need to be suitable mitigation put in place (directing passengers to the Avanti ticket office wouldn't be appropriate) as I could see passengers being accused of all sorts of wrongdoing (Euston staff don't have the best reputation). Granted it is an edge case but that doesn't mean it measures should not be put in place.

Boundary Zone tickets should be available on all TVMs at the station
Can Groupsave tickets be sold at all TVMs at the station
Are WMT only tickets prominently displayed on all TVMs at the station

These are just some of the things that a proper consultation should consider and make recommendations on.

In my opinion that is an unfair slur on the West Midlands staff who are on platforms 8-11, if you were talking about other staff that may be different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my opinion that is an unfair slur on the West Midlands staff who are on platforms 8-11, if you were talking about other staff that may be different.

Sorry, I missed replying to that. The WMT staff on P8-11 are indeed pretty good and do not deserve the reputation of the Avanti staff (who only ever do Avanti services; if WMT services are off-platform they are never barriered except the unusual event of the RPI squad having a day trip down from Brum a couple of times a year if that).

 

[Chiltern006]

is the LU entrance next to the ticket office staying open, often find that handy instead of going through the main concourse

ie the one on P9

 

[Bletchleyite]

is the LU entrance next to the ticket office staying open, often find that handy instead of going through the main concourse

ie the one on P9

So far as I know yes - the main entrance couldn't cope without it.

 

[infobleep]

So far as I know yes - the main entrance couldn't cope without it.

Do they still close the 8-11 entrance during tube disruption?

I remember for the Olympics 2012 they said it would be a one way flow with 8-11 entrance being the exit from the tube.

However there weren't as many travelling as they planned for and so they dropped the plan very quickly. Not long after there was tube disruption and they closed off the entrance from. 8-11 and disallowed any exits or entries into the tube. Why they couldn't have made it exit only during the disruption, like they planned for the Olympics I didn't know. It wasn't as if they hadn't planned to make it exit only.

That always annoyed me as I'd be coming from the tube to platform 8-11. If there was disruption on platforms 8-11, that entrance never seemed to be closed, from memory.

 

[paul1609]

The consultation needs to tell them to do that as a condition of the closure and have it agreed in writing. Otherwise in a year's time what happens when WMT decide they want to remove them because they're a bit of a pain to operate, or they want to make them card only because it's a bit of a pain for them to handle cash without a nearby ticket office

To be honest, cash usage is so low in London and the SE now I'd make all the TVMs at Euston card only.
I haven't used a cash machine in over 6 months.

 

[Hadders]

To be honest, cash usage is so low in London and the SE now I'd make all the TVMs at Euston card only.
I haven't used a cash machine in over 6 months.

Personally I use very little cash but while cash is still accepted by the railway arrangements need to be in place for it to be accepted.

Very often it is the most disadvantaged in society who rely on cash.

 

[Starmill]

I'm almost certain they do, but if they indeed don't that needs to be fixed, regardless of what that ticket office does or doesn't do.

If it doesn't get fixed, a couple of LNR TVMs need adding to the main ticket office, and that would mostly solve it; it doesn't require the staffed booking office that is in the way on the ramp to remain open.

Perhaps Wolife has tried to buy a WMT set ticket from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly? Avanti's machines certainly don't sell those, but then, neither do WMTs.

indeed I can't think of a single one.

London Kings Cross? Manchester Victoria? Watford Junction? Cardiff Queen Street? There are loads...

 

[philthetube]

This would be fixed by putting the two WMT TVMs from the ramp (which I assume are being removed too, as any queue at them causes an obstruction?) in the Avanti ticket machine area, or on the concourse in a location where you couldn't miss them if you were walking towards the booking office.

there were a couple in the Avanti area when I was there last Wednesday, not sure if they are a recent arrival, maybe someone was listening to you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps Wolife has tried to buy a WMT set ticket from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly? Avanti's machines certainly don't sell those, but then, neither do WMTs.

The Avanti booking office should sell that and would be breaching impartiality rules if they didn't.

 

[Kite159]

there were a couple in the Avanti area when I was there last Wednesday, not sure if they are a recent arrival, maybe someone was listening to you.

I think those have been there for a while, as I've used them to top up my oyster.

 

[Lewlew]

Not been to Euston for a few weeks so not sure when it happened but the LNR ticket office is now closed and boarded up. Didn't check to see if the excess fares window was still open but presume it's gone.

 

[Hadders]

The WMT ticket office was kept open until the consultation period finished, they were originally planning to close it before the consultation concluded which was completely unacceptable.

Here is London Travelwatch's response to the consultation. They did not object to the closure but WMT confirm that an Excess Fares window will remain.

Schedule 17 response to West Midlands Trains


I am writing on behalf of London TravelWatch in response to West Midlands Trains (WMT) proposed closure of their ticket office at London Euston.

1. Summary of consultation responses

We have received correspondence from 3 individuals.

2. Accessibility

Concern was raised that the proposed closure will mean that passengers will have to use alternative routes within the station, which can cause problems for those who cannot reach other areas of the station easily.

There was also concern about crowding once passengers start to return to the rail network in greater numbers.

We note from your proposal that the ticket vending machine at the bottom of the ramp adjacent to the gateline to platforms 8-11 will be retained. You have also confirmed that for passengers with reduced mobility or needing assistance, the Avanti West Coast (AWC) ticket office has Customer Hosts. The ticket vending machines and desks will be Disability Discrimination Act compatible.

3. Widespread and easy access to the purchase of rail products

One respondent wanted to ensure that various ticket types are available for sale from all ticket vending machines, whether operated by AWC or WMT. However, WMT have not confirmed if ‘WMT only’ tickets and Groupsave tickets are also available on AWC ticket machines. We ask that you work with AWC to ensure that passengers are able to buy these tickets on WMT and AWC ticket machines.

There was opposition to the proposed closure because the current ticket office also operates as an excess fares window for passengers arriving on services using platforms 8-11, who may not have been able to legitimately purchase the appropriate ticket before or during their journey. You have advised, however, that an excess fares window will remain on the train side of the gateline.

4. Provision of consultation information

We are concerned to have been advised that although the WMT ticket office was still open as of 28th March, the original notice advising that the ticket office was closing on 26th March had remained in place.

We also could not find details of the consultation on your website, which may have encouraged additional responses.

5. Ticket sales volume

We note that closure of the ticket office will not reduce the opening times for customers wishing to purchase a ticket at London Euston, apart from a 25 minute period on Saturday from 2300-2325 when the AWC ticket office is also closed.

The Secretary of State’s definition of a “busy” ticket office is one in which there are an average of 12 ticket sales per hour. You have reviewed the sales data for the period 2300- 2330 for the four Saturdays in February 2020 (pre Covid-19 constraints on travel) and confirmed that there were no ticket sales on any of those days. As there are no instances where ticket sales are at, or above, the 12 ticket sales per hour, we do not object to the proposed closure of WMT’s London Euston ticket office.

However, this would be subject to continuing to work with AWC, especially in the transition period after closure, to ensure that staffing levels are sufficient so that any displaced passengers from the WMT ticket office are not inconvenienced by having to queue for longer at the AWC ticket office.

 

[infobleep]

The WMT ticket office was kept open until the consultation period finished, they were originally planning to close it before the consultation concluded which was completely unacceptable.

Here is London Travelwatch's response to the consultation. They did not object to the closure but WMT confirm that an Excess Fares window will remain.

I get the impression, from other stuff I read on here, that all these things they have asked to them do it most of them, will simply be ignored if it doesn't suit them.

Whilst I'm not against the closure, is Saturday the busiest time for their ticker office and the reason they chose it? I would have thought doing a range of different days might have been better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get the impression, from other stuff I read on here, that all these things they have asked to them do it most of them, will simply be ignored if it doesn't suit them.

Whilst I'm not against the closure, is Saturday the busiest time for their ticker office and the reason they chose it? I would have thought doing a range of different days might have been better.

There isn't any scope to keep it because it's physically in the way. If you put it somewhere else it loses its purpose. So any sort of "appeal" or "consultation" on this is a sham anyway, pointless and essentially dishonest for even existing. A bit like "consultations" on redundancies that basically never change the outcome.

Whoever does the excess fares is going to be sat in a very small box indeed. Surely it would be easier just to have one of the gateline staff revenue trained with a portable machine.

Even the TVMs are in the way, I'm surprised they are staying there rather than being moved to the back of the Tube "tunnel".

 

[Kite159]

I get the impression, from other stuff I read on here, that all these things they have asked to them do it most of them, will simply be ignored if it doesn't suit them.

Whilst I'm not against the closure, is Saturday the busiest time for their ticker office and the reason they chose it? I would have thought doing a range of different days might have been better.

Sounds like that half hour on Saturdays evenings was the only time it was open when the main Avanti ticket office was closed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like that half hour on Saturdays evenings was the only time it was open when the main Avanti ticket office was closed

The answer to which is presumably just to pay Avanti to open their ticket office half an hour later.

 

[infobleep]

Sounds like that half hour on Saturdays evenings was the only time it was open when the main Avanti ticket office was closed

I use to use it occasionally when commuting back between 2010-2013. I don't commute that way any more so don't know if it is still open at that time of day.

The answer to which is presumably just to pay Avanti to open their ticket office half an hour later.

If Avanti are willing to do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Avanti are willing to do that.

Every man, or TOC, has his/its price. Avanti may charge an unreasonable sum for it, but it's on LNR to pay it.

 

[Kite159]

The answer to which is presumably just to pay Avanti to open their ticket office half an hour later.

Depends what the demand is at 23:00 on a Saturday evening with people wanting to buy tickets which couldn't be purchased from a TVM

 

[Wolfie]

Depends what the demand is at 23:00 on a Saturday evening with people wanting to buy tickets which couldn't be purchased from a TVM

Bloody low if the sales figures are accurate.