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LNW 'Automatic' Ticket Barriers

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TheSel

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I quote this recent press release from London Northwestern Railway's website:

/www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/station-gatelines-be-staffed-first-last-train

London Northwestern Railway has announced it will be staffing its automatic station gatelines from first to last train each day from 31 October.

Now - whether folks think is a good idea or not probably depends on how far down the Luddite Scale you are. It can equally well be argued that:

this is a good thing, as it provides reassurance to passengers that there are staff on hand to resolve any queries, address any concerns and so on

OR

this is a bad thing, goes against the whole purpose of automating the ticketing hall in the first place, wastes the investment, and 'dumbs down' the tasks of the good men and women employed in these roles.

But surely the best part of the press release is the next paragraph, which I quote in its entirety below:

The train operator says this is part of a drive to improve customer service, provide additional reassurance to passengers and reduce tickles travel on the rail network.

'tickles travel'
- a light touch indeed!
 

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Sleepy

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Only a good thing surely ! I was shocked to find Watford Junction gates wide open recently (not late at night either)
 
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How is having the barriers in operation first to last dumbing down any skills? If anything it will provide more jobs staffing them first to last. The DfT has put a big focus on ticketless travel and revenue protection and they now require most new franchises to staff ticket gates first to last in stations with over 1million entries and exits a year such as on GTR. However ironically they do not measure ticket office opening times which means whilst the gates are in operation you could have the ticket office closed and TVMs not in operation as they haven't been attended to for a few days due to the office being shut.
 
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I thought when ticket gates were in operation they had to be staffed?
All it takes is someone to accidentally have their ticket near their phone and then they’d be stuck the wrong side of the barrier. A lot of times my ticket goes funny even if I keep it away from everything magnetic or electrical and I have to be let through by the gate line staff.
 

yorkie

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I thought when ticket gates were in operation they had to be staffed?
This is true.

If there are no staff at the gateline, then the company needs to open the gates.

Interestingly some train companies, including West Midlands Trains (who operate LNR branded services), SWR and others have a policy of staffing some gatelines for longer hours than ticket offices are staffed, so anyone needing to use the ticket office has to be simply waived through without a ticket.
 

Starmill

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Only a good thing surely ! I was shocked to find Watford Junction gates wide open recently (not late at night either)
This doesn't shock me!!
this is a bad thing, goes against the whole purpose of automating the ticketing hall in the first place,
What do you mean? Without the increased staff there would be no 'automation' to the ticket hall as the gates would not be in use.
wastes the investment, and 'dumbs down' the tasks of the good men and women employed in these roles.
Surely th opposite of this is true? These staff would not have been employed at all were it not for the franchise requirement for full time gateline operation...

An inside source suggests to me that these staff have been very limited training regarding ticket validity though. Again, if this is true I don't find it at all surprising that the company haven't put emphasis on revenue or retail training for new gateline staff.
 

Bletchleyite

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Interestingly some train companies, including West Midlands Trains (who operate LNR branded services), SWR and others have a policy of staffing some gatelines for longer hours than ticket offices are staffed, so anyone needing to use the ticket office has to be simply waived through without a ticket.

In the 1980s and 90s quite a number of stations were set up such that the ticket office basically was a barrier (sometimes with a turnstile, sometimes just that you couldn't enter the platform without walking past and very close to it, and you'd get called back). Old Roan on Merseyrail was one, there were some in Greater Manchester like one of Brinnington/Bredbury (I forget which) and Rochdale.

I don't understand why that couldn't return - particularly at Bletchley where the barrier is literally right next to the ticket office and in full view of same. I'm not clear why they need separate barrier staff.

Hopefully an upside of this will be the toilets getting longer opening hours at Bletchley, though.
 

causton

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It is correct as stated upthread that this means the barriers will be staffed for longer than the ticket offices so at London North Westernrailway stations (as per the OP :lol:) at least the passengers will be directed to a TVM or waved through. However Bletchleyite's hope that the toilets will be open longer is probably not going to happen, as even at stations currently staffed 24/7 the toilets are locked overnight to prevent crime (vandalism, drugs, people sleeping overnight in them etc) so don't get your hopes up!
 

pt_mad

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I quote this recent press release from London Northwestern Railway's website:

/www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/about-us/news-desk/station-gatelines-be-staffed-first-last-train



Now - whether folks think is a good idea or not probably depends on how far down the Luddite Scale you are. It can equally well be argued that:

this is a good thing, as it provides reassurance to passengers that there are staff on hand to resolve any queries, address any concerns and so on

OR

this is a bad thing, goes against the whole purpose of automating the ticketing hall in the first place, wastes the investment, and 'dumbs down' the tasks of the good men and women employed in these roles.

But surely the best part of the press release is the next paragraph, which I quote in its entirety below:



'tickles travel'
- a light touch indeed!

What time have the barriers traditionally been staffed until at Bletchley and Hemel Hempstead?

Does this mean the hours these two stations have been staffed will be extended later, from next week?

If so that's surely got to be a very positive thing.
 

Bletchleyite

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What time have the barriers traditionally been staffed until at Bletchley and Hemel Hempstead?

Does this mean the hours these two stations have been staffed will be extended later, from next week?

If so that's surely got to be a very positive thing.

At Bletchley they were under latter-day LM almost never staffed. At present they are staffed in the morning but not the evening peak. So this is quite an upgrade to everyone except fare-dodgers.

Hopefully it will also mean the toilets being open for the full period of service.
 

pt_mad

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At Bletchley they were under latter-day LM almost never staffed. At present they are staffed in the morning but not the evening peak. So this is quite an upgrade to everyone except fare-dodgers.

Hopefully it will also mean the toilets being open for the full period of service.

Was/is (as thing things stand this week) the station staffed in some way until end of service though? Whether it be ticket staff, security, cleaner, or anything? Or was the station unstaffed altogether after say 8pm or 9pm or whatever?
 

Kite159

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Good news that it might reduce some ticketless travel, although barriers on their own have a limitation of being able to get beaten by dodgy characters doughnutting, i.e. at Bletchley someone buying a ticket to Fenny Stratford to get through the barriers before boarding an Euston train which normally uses an unbarriered platform at Euston due to length [or having a ticket from South Hampstead/Wembley Central].


And having staff on the station for longer might help decrease anti-social behaviour in some places.
 

Bletchleyite

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Was/is (as thing things stand this week) the station staffed in some way until end of service though? Whether it be ticket staff, security, cleaner, or anything? Or was the station unstaffed altogether after say 8pm or 9pm or whatever?

Totally unstaffed after about 7-8pm other than a couple of "anti-suicide" contracted security guards.
 

pt_mad

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Totally unstaffed after about 7-8pm other than a couple of "anti-suicide" contracted security guards.

In that case this seems a drastic change for the better at Bletchley and Hemel.

I know some people are debating the usefulness of ticket barriers during late evening. The bigger advantage is that the station is officially staffed by rail staff (presumably) till end of service. So passengers can feel safer, anti social behaviour will be deterred more, facilities such as waiting rooms may remain open, help will be available during disruption, station disabled assistance will be available. All the advantages that come with full staffing.
 

Mutant Lemming

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This is true.

If there are no staff at the gateline, then the company needs to open the gates.

t.

Staff are often not physically present though as per the Black Path side barriers at West Hampstead or the town side at St.Albans or car park sides at Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway etc etc. A button is pressed so they can view your ticket through a camera. Fare dodgers will just jump over the barriers (as often witnessed at all those locations) where genuine ticket holders with issues, luggage etc etc are delayed, hampered, trapped in gates.
 

Bletchleyite

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As an update on this, I travelled yesterday evening and both Euston and Bletchley barriers were staffed for the 2344 departure/00whatever arrival. They don't seem to be well-trained, though (looking quite bored and communicating in grunts), and are quite possibly contracted security staff in railway uniforms, which I am rather less supportive of because of potential issues this may cause with claiming tickets are not valid which are.

I didn't need to use the toilets so didn't notice if they were open or not, but I suspect they probably were for their use if nothing else.
 

pt_mad

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As an update on this, I travelled yesterday evening and both Euston and Bletchley barriers were staffed for the 2344 departure/00whatever arrival. They don't seem to be well-trained, though (looking quite bored and communicating in grunts), and are quite possibly contracted security staff in railway uniforms, which I am rather less supportive of because of potential issues this may cause with claiming tickets are not valid which are.

I didn't need to use the toilets so didn't notice if they were open or not, but I suspect they probably were for their use if nothing else.

What uniforms were they wearing?
 

Aictos

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The only issue I can see with this is issuing of PFs for example, GTR use/d agency staff to man the barriers late at night eg 7pm to end of service however they couldn't sell any tickets nor could they issue any PFs so they just had to let people though regardless which made a mockery of having the gates manned if all you could do was operate them.

If you're going to man the gatelines from first to last train then you must be prepared to sell tickets both from the TVMs and also from mobile ticketing equipment but at the same time be prepared to issue PFs too.

Don't get me wrong, I am a strong supporter of having first to last train manning however they need to have 1. Full training and 2. Be able to carry out all duties including that above.

As to the idea of First to Last staffing lets take Bletchley for example now the idea is to have staff man the gateline from the first train of the day to the last now the first train is the 03:30 ex Milton Keynes Central to Euston and the last train is the 01:34 ex Euston to Milton Keynes Central now as there is only a hour between the two I can see London North Western actually having staff on site there 24/7 with the barriers only being open for that hour with them being in operation between the first to last train.

I can't see them having shifts starting and finishing to coincide with these trains as it's easier to just have staff on site 24/7 which is far better not only for passenger safety having a staff presence but also acts to deter anti social behaviour so well done LNWR, I just hope that others swiftly follow though
 

Bletchleyite

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There are security staff at Bletchley 24/7 for anti-suicide reasons. I suspect what they've done is swapped the same staff to manning the barrier in railway uniforms, so this has come at zero cost while cutting out casual fare-dodging by providing the "challenge" to the very large number of people who just "pay when challenged". (This was very common particularly from MKC to Bletchley in the late evening - I know people who call it the "free train" who may now get a bit of a shock).

They have had other customer service benefits, though. I overheard another passenger saying thanks for calling a taxi for him the other night when his phone was broken.
 

JaJaWa

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Hopefully this isn’t going to lead to a Virgin Trains East Coast situation where they had a franchise commitment to implement this at all stations with ticket gatelines and they got round it by taking some of the gatelines out...

Staff are often not physically present though as per the Black Path side barriers at West Hampstead or the town side at St.Albans or car park sides at Harpenden, Luton Airport Parkway etc etc. A button is pressed so they can view your ticket through a camera. Fare dodgers will just jump over the barriers (as often witnessed at all those locations) where genuine ticket holders with issues, luggage etc etc are delayed, hampered, trapped in gates.
Had my worst ever railway / GTR experience with this system. Ticket machines had a sign on them saying cards not accepted. I pressed the button to request the gates be opened so I could buy a ticket on the other side of the station and there was no answer. Managed to get to the other side where the member of staff told me he intentionally hadn’t opened the gates because he had seen I hadn’t bought a ticket, I tried to explain and he said he was calling the police. Got on a train and left...
 
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