LO Barking extension

[cjohnson]

TfL have launched a consultation on extending the GOBLIN to Barking Riverside:

Transport for London (TfL) is proposing a 4km extension (1.5km of new track) of the London Overground Gospel Oak to Barking line to Barking Riverside.

The service would operate from Barking along the existing Essex Thameside Tilbury line and then via a new section of railway, to be built as a raised viaduct, heading south after the railway passes underneath Renwick Road Bridge. The route would end at Barking Riverside, where a station would be built at the heart of a new district centre.

This scheme replaces the previously proposed Docklands Light Railway (DLR) extension from Gallions Reach to Dagenham Dock via Barking Riverside.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/london-overground/gobe/consult_view

 

[telstarbox]

A shame it can't go over the river to Thamesmead.

 

[cjohnson]

It does say the proposal "Provides the possibility of a further extension south at some point in the future"... but given it's going to take until 2019 at the earliest to get this 1.5km of new track built don't hold your breath.

 

[jopsuk]

A shame it can't go over the river to Thamesmead.

The tunnel would be VERY expensive to build

 

[cle]

The tunnel would be VERY expensive to build

Will be on a viaduct, so presumably a bridge. Not that it would be much cheaper!

 

[jopsuk]

Mildly fascinated that the "Proposed London Overground network at 2026" map shows Crossrail as a line, rather than as connections (as for LU, DLR and Tramlink) implying that the TfL intend on Crossrail being sort of part of Overground, even if branded purple rather than Orange...

 

[Class377/5]

Mildly fascinated that the "Proposed London Overground network at 2026" map shows Crossrail as a line, rather than as connections (as for LU, DLR and Tramlink) implying that the TfL intend on Crossrail being sort of part of Overground, even if branded purple rather than Orange...

The start of a heavily rail map for the future with LO services removed from the Tube map?

EDIT:

Anyone else notice this announcement?

This scheme replaces the previously proposed Docklands Light Railway (DLR) extension from Gallions Reach to Dagenham Dock via Barking Riverside.

 

[JohnB57]

Anyone else notice this announcement?

We all did. It was in the original post.

 

[jopsuk]

Will be on a viaduct, so presumably a bridge. Not that it would be much cheaper!

the proposed Silvertown road bridge would be to the west- indeed, west of Barking Creek and crossing the sewage works.

Directly opposite the proposed branch, station and "village centre" is existing housing. There's nowhere to land a viaduct.

Even a tunnel would be a problem, as it would have to remain underground for a considerable distance. Ideally it would connect at least to the line through Abbey Wood, but as far as I can see there it would have to be underground.

An interesting idea, though it would need a lot of tunnelling, would be to connect through Abbey Wood to Bexley Heath and Bexley. If you were to get very ambitious, then along to Sidcup and then south through St Mary Cray to Orpington. Doubt there's any sensible way of paying for that.

 

[Class377/5]

We all did. It was in the original post.

No-ones discussed it which surprises me.

 

[JohnB57]

No-ones discussed it which surprises me.

It's not my part of the world so not really for me to discuss, but I did look at both routes on Google Earth and it seems sensible in view of the development potential in that area.

I can't imagine that the cross river link would be viable but in London, who knows?

 

[ScotGG]

Should go over the Thames to Abbey Wood, and crucially provide north Thamesmead with a rail station at long last. Many other benefits such as quick links from SE London and Kent to Essex, north London and east London which are currently very difficult to reach. Likewise from the north of the Thames it would provide quick access to Kent.

It's a bit of a cruel joke to promise Thamesmead infrastructure for many decades and pull the rug away every time. It's so deprived but has scope for many more houses. Abbey Wood Crossrail is good for south Thamesmead but North Thamesmead is cut off from rail by the major southern outfall sewer, a dual carriageway and awful town planning. But the answer seems to be for north Thamesmead - get a bus, which slowly meanders around and is far from quick. It's not unknown for it to take as long to get from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood/Woolwich as it does from Abbey Wood/Woolwich to London Bridge. the town just wont improve without a serious investment and better infrastructure. A joined up approach would recognise it could have a crucial role in solving the housing problem.

North Thamesmead has acres of land to build a cut and cover tunnel after rising up from the Thames and also install a cut and cover station reducing costs. This could be accomodated pretty much all the way to Abbey Wood meaning little disruption or deep tunneling except under the river, and Woolwich DLR and Woolwich Crossrail have shown in recent years that Thames tunneling can be reasonable cost wise, and quick.

 

[Class377/5]

It's not my part of the world so not really for me to discuss, but I did look at both routes on Google Earth and it seems sensible in view of the development potential in that area.

I can't imagine that the cross river link would be viable but in London, who knows?

Well the old idea was to use the bridge further so the west, however with the 6 car DLR and 9 car Crossrail, will there be need or a 4 car LO service at much lower frequencies?

 

[ScotGG]

Even a tunnel would be a problem, as it would have to remain underground for a considerable distance. Ideally it would connect at least to the line through Abbey Wood, but as far as I can see there it would have to be underground.

An interesting idea, though it would need a lot of tunnelling, would be to connect through Abbey Wood to Bexley Heath and Bexley. If you were to get very ambitious, then along to Sidcup and then south through St Mary Cray to Orpington. Doubt there's any sensible way of paying for that.

There would be no point physically connecting the line to the north Kent line at Abbey Wood, which is very busy and will soon have 12 car running at 8 trains an hour, to replace some with LO 4 car trains. It should terminate at Abbey Wood, with a quick change to Crossrail/North kent line.

Going past Abbey Wood is not worth it. The geography makes it difficult as no scope for above ground running and underground would need to go from cut and cover to deep tunneling, and with no development potential heading south it wouldn't stack up. Up to Abbey Wood it does though - masses of redevelopment potential around there and crucially in North Thamesmead, and it would offer a link from the busy North Kent southeastern line (from Kent to Greenwich, Lewisham, London Bridge etc) and Crossrail, and north across the Thames to meet a wealth of transport at Barking - London Overground to east and north London, 2 tube lines and the major c2c line to Fenchurch St and Essex the other way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the old idea was to use the bridge further so the west, however with the 6 car DLR and 9 car Crossrail, will there be need or a 4 car LO service at much lower frequencies?

With the projected housing to be built both sides of the Thames then very much so.

 

[cle]

Just took a look at the area from the river down to Abbey Wood on Streetview, Jesus...

 

[ScotGG]

Yep it's not good at all and I don't see much hope of it changing without infrastructure improvements asap.

With a line you could really do something about the awful developments. For people who don't know - think of the worst quality developments from the 60s to 2000s and Thamesmead has them.

 

[Class377/5]

With the projected housing to be built both sides of the Thames then very much so.

Doubtful a four car 15min service would be enough. You need a proper length service especially if your going to generate enough traffic to warrant a tunnel being built.

 

[Busaholic]

I'll take up Class377/5's challenge. The Goblin extension is not going to Dagenham Dock via Barking Riverside, but only to the latter, which to me indicates it is seen as a staging-post to somewhere else and southwards has to be the logical suggestion. Those Crossrail tunnelling machines may have to be disinterred!

 

[ScotGG]

Doubtful a four car 15min service would be enough. You need a proper length service especially if your going to generate enough traffic to warrant a tunnel being built.

Would a 4 car LO train be longer than a DLR train as a tunnel was built under the Thames for that recently? Costs shouldn't be too much greater. There would be more space to play with south of the river for a Thamesmead station compared to Woolwich DLR, as constructing Woolwich was in a constricted site and required a fair bit of compulsory purchase. Plus a lot of scope for dense over-station development to help fund it. The DLR runs 6 an hour but capacity is likely to be similar if 4 car is longer and with longitudinal seating. Sadly they designed the Woolwich extension so it faces away from Thamesmead.

I think it would get a more than healthy ridership from the developments planned (and existing) at Barking Riverside and Thamesmead to the nearest interchanges which would be the main flows. The amount of new inhabitants would probably be enough to justify it given the route and amount of development potential. These areas and potential population numbers are about right to fill up a 4 car and give quick links to the nearest major interchanges at Abbey Wood and Barking, alongside a small additional number of people with more varied flows eg other parts of SE London to Essex. Most people in wider SE London and east London would be going directly east-west and it would not take a huge chunk of those flows.

 

[LeeLivery]

So they definitely don't want to extend the Hammersmith & City. I guess its because of electrification issues?

It looks like it would end too close to the river to then dive underground so a bridge looks obvious. If the costs for tunneling are too much after the river crossing then a Thamesmead Parkway could be built at the Eastern Way/Carlyle Road Junction (A viaduct would be along the green strip from the river). If tunneling isn't too much then a tunnel from the ''Parkway station'' to Abbey Wood and then Bexleyheath seems reasonable, and the benefit ratio could increase if the H&C was extended too.

However, I just can't see the idea of an orbital route in London's outer South having a high enough usage. The nightmare hilly geology and the population density just isn't high enough to outweigh the costs. As someone who lives in South London I'm pretty confident that most people would rather go London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross/use the ELL than go Barking or Harringay. I'm all for a bridge crossings but the orbital idea just seems like a dead fish. A London wide Tram network would be far better.

 

[CapitalStar378]

From the LO 2026 map (why choose this year?) it seems there are no plans to run through trains onto the NLL/WLL from GOBLIN, seems a wasted opportunity with electrification imminent.

 

[swt_passenger]

From the LO 2026 map (why choose this year?) it seems there are no plans to run through trains onto the NLL/WLL from GOBLIN, seems a wasted opportunity with electrification imminent.

There isn't track capacity west of Gospel Oak. The NLL already uses all the paths NR make available. This is also why the WLL through services are peak only.

 

[ScotGG]

So they definitely don't want to extend the Hammersmith & City. I guess its because of electrification issues?
If tunneling isn't too much then a tunnel from the ''Parkway station'' to Abbey Wood and then Bexleyheath seems reasonable, and the benefit ratio could increase if the H&C was extended too.

However, I just can't see the idea of an orbital route in London's outer South having a high enough usage. The nightmare hilly geology and the population density just isn't high enough to outweigh the costs. As someone who lives in South London I'm pretty confident that most people would rather go London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross/use the ELL than go Barking or Harringay. I'm all for a bridge crossings but the orbital idea just seems like a dead fish. A London wide Tram network would be far better.

Extending to Bexleyheath after Abbey Wood would be very unlikely I'd have thought. Past Abbey Wood the land rises sharply and mile after mile is inter-war semis. There's none of the half-used wide roads, empty land etc like there is from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood, which could be used as a building site for cut and cover tunnels or above ground running. In Bexleyheath and other places south there's also no large empty development sites, or massive (failed) 1970s estates to redevelop like Thamesmead. Tens of thousands of homes can be built in Barking & Thamesmead to help pay for any extension, and to ensure demand is then big enough.

The idea of a full orbital as seen in the 2050 plan is a bit of a folly. Way too difficult and expensive. An extension to Abbey Wood via Thamesmead (where it would terminate to meet crossrail) is a whole different ballgame.

About this line - 'As someone who lives in South London I'm pretty confident that most people would rather go London Bridge/Victoria/Charing Cross/use the ELL than go Barking or Harringay.' - I agree this is the case for many existing residents of wider South, South east and East London who would not use it, at least initially, but the main incentive to build is for new communities, as well as providing for existing that are cut off like north Thamesmead.

Build a huge number of (much needed) new homes, as is planned, in Barking and Thamesmead and the new residents would use it. You'd also encourage developers to move in quickly to start building. Barking Riverside has had a tiny number of homes built over the past 10 years. Thamesmead still has less people than were supposed to be there in the 70s. Infrastructure is a big reason why. If public bodies work alongside with TfL building hundreds or thousands of new homes above a new Thamesmead station great progress would be made on a number of issues - housing shortages, local economic and social problems etc. And also when new links arrive new business and leisure facilities connections follow. There may not be too many people in say, Dartford who currently go Barking. That can change, and often does with new links.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A shame it can't go over the river to Thamesmead.

You could always respond to the consultation to say provision should be made for that to happen.

 

[philjo]

I also think that either the GOBLIN or alternatively the Hammersmith & city should cross the river to serve Thamesmead and connect to Abbey Wood for Crossrail connections.
A useful further extension if it was the GOBLIN would be to serve Dartford & provide easy access to the Darent Valley Hospital and adjacent Bluewater shopping centre and also provide a connection to Ebbsfleet station (which is where Crossrail was originally going to terminate before it was cut abck to abbey wood).
some of this further extension can be paid for if the proposed Garden City development goes ahead on that area. also if the line continued alongside HS1 it could then link on the current HS1 spur (that was used for trains from Waterloo) towards Bromley.

 

[AM9]

I also think that either the GOBLIN or alternatively the Hammersmith & city should cross the river to serve Thamesmead and connect to Abbey Wood for Crossrail connections.
A useful further extension if it was the GOBLIN would be to serve Dartford & provide easy access to the Darent Valley Hospital and adjacent Bluewater shopping centre and also provide a connection to Ebbsfleet station (which is where Crossrail was originally going to terminate before it was cut abck to abbey wood).
some of this further extension can be paid for if the proposed Garden City development goes ahead on that area. also if the line continued alongside HS1 it could then link on the current HS1 spur (that was used for trains from Waterloo) towards Bromley.

As has already been said taking the line on beyond Abbey Wood would (sorry) be a significant increase in costs as the route is just not readily available. Such project creep could kill off any expansion south of Riverside. If the case for east of Abbey Wood is so good, then it can be promoted as soon as the initial scheme is underway.

 

[telstarbox]

You could always respond to the consultation to say provision should be made for that to happen.

That's not how consultations work In seriousness I will.

 

[cle]

As has already been said taking the line on beyond Abbey Wood would (sorry) be a significant increase in costs as the route is just not readily available. Such project creep could kill off any expansion south of Riverside. If the case for east of Abbey Wood is so good, then it can be promoted as soon as the initial scheme is underway.

I agree. I think it's fairly useless until extended (a shuttle to Barking basically), but that Abbey Wood is a natural ending for the line (via Thamesmead with a stop or two).

Hammersmith & City is an interesting idea, but might require dedicated tracks the whole way. Certainly the frequency and capacity would be more in keeping with the investment (6-7 S7 trains per hour?) - and being on the tube does have a better cachet.
But again, would need to go to Abbey Wood. Nobody would use beyond Barking or West Ham at a push.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's not how consultations work In seriousness I will.

lol, you cynic!

btw in this regard, it may be worth pointing out that the possibility of extending the GOBLIN to Abbey Wood, and in the long term further turning it into a full orbital route is already being considered.

https://www.london.gov.uk/priorities/business-economy/vision-and-strategy/infrastructure-plan-2050 - click on the Transport Supporting Paper link near the bottom of the page. In that PDF, there's a statement on page 82 concerning the possibility of extending from Barking Riverside to Abbey Wood (I haven't quoted it as copy and paste from the PDF doesn't seem to be working).

And on page 90 of the same document is a (much more speculative) map that appears to show the railway extended past Abbey Wood through Bexleyheath (presumably by tunnelling).

I will probably respond to the consultation and draw attention to the importance of building the Barking Riverside extension in a way that safeguards these proposals.

(By the way, for anyone interested more generally in this area, there's still a week to go on TFL's consultation on building road bridges across that part of the Thames https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/river-crossings - which would for the most part be a stupid waste of money in my view)