Local lockdown in Greater Manchester, East Lancashire and parts of West Yorkshire - Discussion

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,343
My head hurts trying to make sense of that! Given this is the man in charge of the whole lockdown, it doesn’t fill me with much confidence!
To give the man credit where it's due, it's not all that easy to speak in sentences that make sense written down when put on the spot in an interview. It's much easier to do that when you're writing something down. When listening to what someone is saying it to typically sounds a lot more coherent than the transcript might suggest.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

adc82140

Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
858
To give the man credit where it's due, it's not all that easy to speak in sentences that make sense written down when put on the spot in an interview. It's much easier to do that when you're writing something down. When listening to what someone is saying it to typically sounds a lot more coherent than the transcript might suggest.
Which is exactly why a formal written announcement should have been published, with a pre recorded ministerial statement, not a lot of twaddle on twitter followed by a round of floundering breakfast television interviews
 

C J Snarzell

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
698
I've said this on another thread and it has again been raised by another forum member on this thread -

We need to get back a 5pm Downing Street press briefing with Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock & Prof Chris Whitty on board, just once a week to simply reinforce the message about the measures and social distancing.

I do believe part of the issue here is the breakdown in communication between the government & the UK population.

CJ
 

adc82140

Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
858
I've said this on another thread and it has again been raised by another forum member on this thread -

We need to get back a 5pm Downing Street press briefing with Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock & Prof Chris Whitty on board, just once a week to simply reinforce the message about the measures and social distancing.

I do believe part of the issue here is the breakdown in communication between the government & the UK population.

CJ
I'd like to see the return of Jonathan Van Tam and Jenny Harries, but as we know their advice doesn't quite fit in with Boris's respond to the Facebook hysterics way of government.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,343
Further guidance and FAQs have now been released on the government website. They reveal that for all of Hancock's bluff and bluster about restrictions coming in "from midnight", they haven't actually signed in the new GM etc. Regulations into law yet:
The government will pass new laws to enforce the changes to meeting people in private homes and gardens. The police will be able to take action against those that break these rules
I find it extremely concerning that the government is happy to lie about whether or not something is the law. This could become a way for them to circumvent restrictions on laws they are allowed to implement (cf. human rights etc.) in the future, by claiming that the law is one thing when actually it's something entirely else.

I'm also not aware of any Regulations restricting indoor gyms and swimming pools from being allowed to reopen in Bradford as they claim:
In Blackburn with Darwen and Bradford, the following premises must remain closed by law:
  • indoor gyms
  • indoor fitness and dance studios
  • indoor sports courts and facilities
  • indoor swimming pools, including indoor facilities at water parks
No doubt there'll be those who say "what does it matter - most people don't read the laws anyway, are you asking for people to take needless risks?". The point is this - it's simply yet another attack on the rule of law. It's no different to how the government "instructed" schools to close and then later use the fact that they hadn't legally forced them to close, as a defence against a judicial review of such closures.

The interests of both the rule of law and public health can easily be effectively served at the same time; in fact, the latter would benefit due to a reduction in the confusion that is now reigning over such nonsense as:
If you live in one of the affected areas, in order to help prevent the spread of coronavirus, you should not ... visit someone else’s home or garden even if they live outside of the affected areas.
All it would take is for the government to have pro-forma Regulations ready for every possible level of restriction, and then simply stated which level of restrictions applied in each area, with a weekly review.

This is where it all begins when you're travelling towards the direction of the disgusting dictatorship PiS party in Poland...
 
Last edited:

bramling

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
8,768
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Actually I think many of the people on this forum don't have the right sense of perspective - the overwhelming evidence suggests to me that there is a strong risk of infections spiralling out of control if the right action isn't taken but this appears to be a minority view here.
I think most people on here have taken the time to inform themselves, and are rather better informed than your average Facebook hysterical.

The poop-storm associated with last night’s announcement certainly isn’t confined to here. Again it’s not *what* it is, but *how* it’s been done. Does Boris really think he barks and people are taking notice? If they were then this measure wouldn’t have been needed in the first place.

He needs to get people on side so they comply without the need for a big stick. They way to do that is to educate people so that they understand the problems and do the right thing off their own back. It really doesn’t help that he’s simply lost touch and confidence with wide segments of the population.

Tony Blair, much as I loathe him, would have managed to get people to buy-in, pre Iraq war anyway. There would have been a big statement with emotion clearly evident in his mannerisms, making it clear what was needed and why. Instead we get a bumbling Boris or dopey Hancock performance. It’s that inability to communicate effectively with people that’s causing them to lose control of this.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
3,711
Location
Nottingham
I've said this on another thread and it has again been raised by another forum member on this thread -

We need to get back a 5pm Downing Street press briefing with Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock & Prof Chris Whitty on board, just once a week to simply reinforce the message about the measures and social distancing.

I do believe part of the issue here is the breakdown in communication between the government & the UK population.

CJ
Indeed, whilst there are still restrictions on our lives, the Govt should be required to continuously justify them.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
3,711
Location
Nottingham
As an aside, I can think of few worse ways to communicate this. I think it would be difficult to do worse if you actually tried to.

I'd previously dismissed civil disobedience or even riots and fanciful, but I think that this has increased the odds.
 

thejuggler

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
841
Hancock again is all over the place. I've just heard him answering a few simple questions about where retsrictions apply and he stated they apply to all areas of West Yorkshire outside of Leeds.

I have not yet heard anywhere that Wakefield is now included in the areas announced yesterday. I know he is under pressure, but details such as this are important.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
23,937
Location
Yorks
Hancock again is all over the place. I've just heard him answering a few simple questions about where retsrictions apply and he stated they apply to all areas of West Yorkshire outside of Leeds.

I have not yet heard anywhere that Wakefield is now included in the areas announced yesterday. I know he is under pressure, but details such as this are important.
It's very important to me - I live there.

This is turning into a bit of a fiasco.
 

MikeWM

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
1,080
Location
Ely
I'd previously dismissed civil disobedience or even riots and fanciful, but I think that this has increased the odds.
It would have been difficult to avoid with the economic damage alone. As the Government appears to be now using a strategy of trying to make us all blame either other - rather than direct our anger in the correct direction - I fear it is probably inevitable.

If the heatwave late next week that is currently being forecast actually occurs, I think it may be a lot sooner than we think, too :(
 

Enthusiast

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
487
It's more like when a child in the class is diagnosed with a serious infectious disease and the rest of the class are put in quarantine.
Not really. It's more like a child in a class being diagnosed with a serious infectious disease, the rest of his class, the remainder of the school and all schools within a 20 mile radius being placed into quarantine.
the overwhelming evidence suggests to me that there is a strong risk of infections spiralling out of control if the right action isn't taken but this appears to be a minority view here.
I don't know why the notion that this virus can be contained prevails. The only way to contain it is by means of a universal, rigorously enforced lockdown of the entire population. This is obviously not practical, let alone desirable. Anything else is simply spreading the ultimate result over a longer period. Doing this extends the economic damage over that same extended period. The strategy should be (and should always have been) to protect the vulnerable groups (properly). The rest must get on with it. I'm afraid that all this messing about locking down, unlocking, re-locking, face masks, social distancing is simply trying to prevent the tide coming in at Southend tomorrow only to see it come in three times the next day.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
1,924
Hancock again is all over the place. I've just heard him answering a few simple questions about where retsrictions apply and he stated they apply to all areas of West Yorkshire outside of Leeds.

I have not yet heard anywhere that Wakefield is now included in the areas announced yesterday. I know he is under pressure, but details such as this are important.
Bull*hitting windbags don't understand detail. They are important, they speak, it happens. As it has happened there is no need to check.

I see the leader of Rossendale has hit back - their cases doubled overnight and that means they are in 'Red' territory - from one case to two.

As has been said, someone needs to get a grip on this situation before all 66m population simply stop listening and the police, if they choose to enforce the upcoming regulations, will have to be seriously enhanced in number and use those water cannon (illegal actually) that Boris bought at great expense.

Both SNAFU and FUBAR
 

C J Snarzell

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
698
Bull*hitting windbags don't understand detail. They are important, they speak, it happens. As it has happened there is no need to check.

I see the leader of Rossendale has hit back - their cases doubled overnight and that means they are in 'Red' territory - from one case to two.

As has been said, someone needs to get a grip on this situation before all 66m population simply stop listening and the police, if they choose to enforce the upcoming regulations, will have to be seriously enhanced in number and use those water cannon (illegal actually) that Boris bought at great expense.

Both SNAFU and FUBAR
I believe there was some anger in Darwen when Blackburn was put under scrutiny. Bury Council have also hit back as their Covid figures are presently very low.

It seems like the government, realising there are issues in half of the Greater Manchester Council authorities (Oldham, Rochdale, Tameside, Trafford, City of Manchester) have put a blanket across all 10 of them to simple deter the 'Borough border crossing' mentality.

Andy Burnham was on the local news this morning and he seemed just as ill prepared for the questions as Matt Hancock.

CJ
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
5,007
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I have just come back from lunch at one of my locals. And despite the blisteringly warm weather here in Baildon, patronage in the pub is down at least 75% on last Friday when it was sunny but not too warm. It seems that once again the headline grabbing politicians are doing their best to tank everybody's lives to appear to be "doing something".
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
1,221
Location
Dumfries
I have just come back from lunch at one of my locals. And despite the blisteringly warm weather here in Baildon, patronage in the pub is down at least 75% on last Friday when it was sunny but not too warm. It seems that once again the headline grabbing politicians are doing their best to tank everybody's lives to appear to be "doing something".
There'll be a profound economic impact on livelihoods and businesses soon.

Museums, galleries and cinemas having mandated masks will see a very significant reduction in footfall. Can these places really afford to stay open for very little patronage? In cinemas, if snacks aren't permitted then very few I imagine will be able to stay open (and if snacks are allowed, the law is completely pointless and unenforceable.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,176
Location
Isle of Man
Actually I think many of the people on this forum don't have the right sense of perspective - the overwhelming evidence suggests to me that there is a strong risk of infections spiralling out of control if the right action isn't taken but this appears to be a minority view here.
Bradford's infection rate has "spiralled out of control" from a low of 35 per 100,000 people a fortnight ago to 45 cases per 100,000 people today. Testing capacity has massively increased since then, too.

It was 72 per 100,000 people, with significantly fewer tests being carried out, when Boris re-opened the pubs.

So sorry, I don't buy any of this nonsense at all. I think it is a targeted attack on Muslim communities by a Prime Minister who refers to them as "letterboxes" and "picanninies with watermelon smiles".

Waiting until 15 minutes after sunset yesterday- when everyone knows Eid starts at sunset- was particularly despicable. It's the equivalent of announcing it at 11am on Christmas morning, when you've already made your plans and put the turkey in the oven.
 

AdamWW

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2012
Messages
838
Bradford's infection rate has "spiralled out of control" from a low of 35 per 100,000 people a fortnight ago to 45 cases per 100,000 people today. Testing capacity has massively increased since then, too.

It was 72 per 100,000 people, with significantly fewer tests being carried out, when Boris re-opened the pubs.

So sorry, I don't buy any of this nonsense at all. I think it is a targeted attack on Muslim communities by a Prime Minister who refers to them as "letterboxes" and "picanninies with watermelon smiles".

Waiting until 15 minutes after sunset yesterday- when everyone knows Eid starts at sunset- was particularly despicable. It's the equivalent of announcing it at 11am on Christmas morning, when you've already made your plans and put the turkey in the oven.
I don't know how justified the local lockdown is because I haven't look at the figures.

But I do think that some people are misinterpreting the national figures (oh look deaths are down to a very low level so we're just about done with this) and not appreciating that the relatively large amount of coronarivus currently circulating in the UK means that the likelihood is that given the chance infection levels will blow up again, and there's no good reason to be confident this won't lead to high death rates again.

We can argue over whether we're foolish to think we can prevent that from happening rather than just delay it, or whether the cure is worse than the disease.

But I disagree that action by the government that is genuinely aimed at preventing this from happening shows a lack of perspective.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,176
Location
Isle of Man
But I disagree that action by the government that is genuinely aimed at preventing this from happening shows a lack of perspective.
Until this week I'd have agreed that the government were acting in good faith, even if I thought they were wrong.

Now I don't even think they're acting in good faith any more.
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
1,221
Location
Dumfries
I don't know how justified the local lockdown is because I haven't looked at the figures.
But I do think that some people are misinterpreting the national figures (oh look deaths are down to a very low level so we're just about done with this) and not appreciating that the relatively large amount of coronavirus currently circulating in the UK means that the likelihood is that given the chance infection levels will blow up again, and there's no good reason to be confident this won't lead to high death rates again.
Thing is, is it really worth causing such economic strain, social and mental health issues and problems related to other physical conditions just to prevent the spread of a virus which for a good 90% of the population will be simply a mild inconvenience? If cases are high but deaths are very low and we are locking down, this is effectively what we are doing

We can argue over whether we're foolish to think we can prevent that from happening rather than just delay it, or whether the cure is worse than the disease.

But I disagree that action by the government that is genuinely aimed at preventing this from happening shows a lack of perspective.
A sense of perspective approach from the government would have a clear exit strategy. This we'll open up and close down again as cases swing up and down again like a see-saw' approach isn't doing any good for anyone.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,343
A Tory MP has defended his claim that some Muslims in West Yorkshire are not taking the pandemic seriously.

Craig Whittaker said the "vast majority" of those breaking the rules in his constituency were from black and minority ethnic (BAME) communities.

Tory peer Baroness Warsi called his comments "divisive nonsense" and Labour said they were "overtly racist".

But Mr Whittaker said he would continue to speak out to try and prevent excess deaths in BAME communities.
The MP for Calder Valley, Craig Whittaker, has been castigated for calling this out for what it is - a problem of individual communities in wards not taking heed of sensible measures. The use of the term Muslim is probably not very helpful, because it is more about the attitude of some of the people in these communities, but describing it as a problem with certain BAME communities is not far off the mark. It's chilling that people can't point out what's really happening without being labelled racists.

Ultimately the biggest issue is with communities having many large multi-generational households. The younger members of some of those households are meeting up with many different people in close contact but aren't themselves at risk. They then spread it to older people in their household, who are at much greater risk.
 

bramling

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
8,768
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
There'll be a profound economic impact on livelihoods and businesses soon.

Museums, galleries and cinemas having mandated masks will see a very significant reduction in footfall. Can these places really afford to stay open for very little patronage? In cinemas, if snacks aren't permitted then very few I imagine will be able to stay open (and if snacks are allowed, the law is completely pointless and unenforceable.
This will be utterly terminal for such places. Wearing one to keep the peace in a shop when one *needs* to buy something is one thing, but wearing one for ages round a castle or museum is a total no-no.
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
1,221
Location
Dumfries
This will be utterly terminal for such places. Wearing one in a shop when one *needs* to buy something is one thing, but wearing one for ages round a castle or museum is a total no-no.
I expect we may see quite a backlash from these industries as soon as they realise this!
 

NorthOxonian

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
430
Location
Oxford/Newcastle
The MP for Calder Valley, Craig Whittaker, has been castigated for calling this out for what it is - a problem of individual communities in wards not taking heed of sensible measures. The use of the term Muslim is probably not very helpful, because it is more about the attitude of some of the people in these communities, but describing it as a problem with certain BAME communities is not far off the mark. It's chilling that people can't point out what's really happening without being labelled racists.

Ultimately the biggest issue is with communities having many large multi-generational households. The younger members of some of those households are meeting up with many different people in close contact but aren't themselves at risk. They then spread it to older people in their household, who are at much greater risk.
Worth noting that Calder Valley is a very white constituency - even compared to Calderdale borough which has very few people from such communities overall. So it seems odd that he'd be the one to comment on such trends - he certainly won't have much of a sample size.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
1,924
Bradford's infection rate has "spiralled out of control" from a low of 35 per 100,000 people a fortnight ago to 45 cases per 100,000 people today. Testing capacity has massively increased since then, too.

It was 72 per 100,000 people, with significantly fewer tests being carried out, when Boris re-opened the pubs.

So sorry, I don't buy any of this nonsense at all. I think it is a targeted attack on Muslim communities by a Prime Minister who refers to them as "letterboxes" and "picanninies with watermelon smiles".

Waiting until 15 minutes after sunset yesterday- when everyone knows Eid starts at sunset- was particularly despicable. It's the equivalent of announcing it at 11am on Christmas morning, when you've already made your plans and put the turkey in the oven.
I would suggest it was a very good time. Who, on an Eid celebration, would be looking on twitface? If an activity is lawfully underway when the law changes (and the law won't actually change until next week), you can carry with your activity. By the time it is actually illegal to meet another household, everyone will have completed their celebrations. There is the moral aspect of course, look at all those (insert group to be ostracized here) enjoying themselves when we have told them not to do so.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,343
Worth noting that Calder Valley is a very white constituency - even compared to Calderdale borough which has very few people from such communities overall. So it seems odd that he'd be the one to comment on such trends - he certainly won't have much of a sample size.
He was referred to the ward by ward figures for Calderdale, with cases being predominantly in wards with a higher proportion of minority ethnic background citizens.
 

island

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
10,822
Location
0036
Were these, once again, pushed through the emergency legislation powers bypassing the need for any scrutiny?
Not even that, they were just announced as “you must do this” and have no more enforceability (for now) than me asking you politely.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
1,924
The MP for Calder Valley, Craig Whittaker, has been castigated for calling this out for what it is - a problem of individual communities in wards not taking heed of sensible measures. The use of the term Muslim is probably not very helpful, because it is more about the attitude of some of the people in these communities, but describing it as a problem with certain BAME communities is not far off the mark. It's chilling that people can't point out what's really happening without being labelled racists.

Ultimately the biggest issue is with communities having many large multi-generational households. The younger members of some of those households are meeting up with many different people in close contact but aren't themselves at risk. They then spread it to older people in their household, who are at much greater risk.
Re the final paragraph. I saw an article where one of the (person of asian heritage) community leaders in Blackburn was saying that same thing. Good to see that there are members in communities prepared to say things and take action on behalf of / encouraging their communities. Positive to see it being reported, in measured tones, that's what breaks down 'us and them' barriers.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
11,176
Location
Isle of Man
It's chilling that people can't point out what's really happening without being labelled racists.
If there's evidence, he can point to it.

Of course he can't, because he doesn't have BAME people in his constituency, which is predominantly white. The BAME areas of Calderdale are not in his constituency.

He hasn't provided any evidence, so I'll take it for what it is: dog-whistle politics.

So it seems odd that he'd be the one to comment on such trends - he certainly won't have much of a sample size.
Quite.

Ultimately the biggest issue is with communities having many large multi-generational households.
That is the issue and is the issue regardless of (lack of) compliance with the rules.
 

Top