Loco Cleaning & Preparation - BR Blue

[lostwin(m)]

Can I ask a few questions that I feel probably should be obvious, but I have never quite understood. Probably relate to multiple periods, but I guess my primary interest is BR blue times.

How were locos painted - were they sprayed or was a paint brush used?

When ex-works or prepared for a special occasion, is a polish applied, a bit like like car paint work?

How were locos cleaned (and from the state of many of them, it obviously wasn't often!) - I don't think they went through the usual carriage washers - so was this bucket and brush or something more automated?

Strange thing is, in my time spotting and bashing, I don't think I ever saw anyone cleaning or preparing a loco, so just kind of intrigued how this was done.

 

[Cowley]

Can I ask a few questions that I feel probably should be obvious, but I have never quite understood. Probably relate to multiple periods, but I guess my primary interest is BR blue times.

How were locos painted - were they sprayed or was a paint brush used?

When ex-works or prepared for a special occasion, is a polish applied, a bit like like car paint work?

How were locos cleaned (and from the state of many of them, it obviously wasn't often!) - I don't think they went through the usual carriage washers - so was this bucket and brush or something more automated?

Strange thing is, in my time spotting and bashing, I don't think I ever saw anyone cleaning or preparing a loco, so just kind of intrigued how this was done.

Interesting questions and I’d like to know the answers too. I’d always assumed that locos were brush painted in BR blue days because spraying to my mind seems like something that came along perhaps in the early 1990s at selected depots?

Some depots had a reputation for turning out good quality paintwork (Stratford in the 1980s for example), but how did they achieve it?

 

[Magdalia]

For painting, I think there is probably a distinction between repaints at main works, with dedicated paint shop facilities, and repaints done at depots. The latter would have been paint brushes, the former I'm less sure, and I wish that I'd paid more attention to such things on works visits. In the paint shop on a works visit the key task would have been identifying locos part way through painting with no external numbers!

For cleaning, I have seen a picture from the early 1960s of one of Stratford's Royal Brush Type 2s being specially prepared: it is a team of men with ladders, mops and buckets.

Stratford has a long and illustrious history of special paint jobs, including the Liverpool Street station pilot in steam days:

N7 BR 69614 at Liverpool Street Station c1958-1959

Liverpool Street Station West Side Pilot. The photographer and date the photo was taken are unknown. A digitally restored image from an original negative in my collection. Downloads are available from here: paulkearley.smugmug.com

www.flickr.com

N7 BR 69614 at Liverpool Street Station c1958-1959​

Liverpool Street Station West Side Pilot.​

In the 1970s carriage washers used a very strong detergent called exmover which was very bad for the paintwork of locos that went through the washer multiple times every day. This particularly applied to the Paddington pilot locos and Old Oak Common used to repaint these quite frequently. However, unlike Stratford, Old Oak Common used recently ex works locos for Royal Trains, not dedicated locos, doing cleaning but not painting as part of Royal Train preparation. Pristine locos on the 0645 Paddington-Birmingham and 1025 back was usually Royal Train preparation.

Finally, a sad story about railway painting. I have a neighbour who grew up in York: their grandfather was a skilled painter at the carriage works, who died early from lead poisoning ingested by licking paintbrushes to get a fine tip.

 

[75A]

At Brighton in the early 80's we'd regularly have a Saturday turn where we'd go 'Pass' to Hove to relieve a Footex from the north. This was usually single 33. We'd take the train to Littlehampton where it would go through the washer then rest up before going back to Hove to pick up the away fans. The coaches always seemed to be Mk1's and no effort was ever made to close the windows which would make me smile in the Winter months.

 

[lostwin(m)]

For painting, I think there is probably a distinction between repaints at main works, with dedicated paint shop facilities, and repaints done at depots. The latter would have been paint brushes, the former I'm less sure, and I wish that I'd paid more attention to such things on works visits. In the paint shop on a works visit the key task would have been identifying locos part way through painting with no external numbers!

For cleaning, I have seen a picture from the early 1960s of one of Stratford's Royal Brush Type 2s being specially prepared: it is a team of men with ladders, mops and buckets.

Stratford has a long and illustrious history of special paint jobs, including the Liverpool Street station pilot in steam days:

N7 BR 69614 at Liverpool Street Station c1958-1959

Liverpool Street Station West Side Pilot. The photographer and date the photo was taken are unknown. A digitally restored image from an original negative in my collection. Downloads are available from here: paulkearley.smugmug.com

www.flickr.com

In the 1970s carriage washers used a very strong detergent called exmover which was very bad for the paintwork of locos that went through the washer multiple times every day. This particularly applied to the Paddington pilot locos and Old Oak Common used to repaint these quite frequently. However, unlike Stratford, Old Oak Common used recently ex works locos for Royal Trains, not dedicated locos, doing cleaning but not painting as part of Royal Train preparation. Pristine locos on the 0645 Paddington-Birmingham and 1025 back was usually Royal Train preparation.

Finally, a sad story about railway painting. I have a neighbour who grew up in York: their grandfather was a skilled painter at the carriage works, who died early from lead poisoning ingested by licking paintbrushes to get a fine tip.

Thanks for that. Googling, there is a reasonable amount of info on the cleaning of steam locos - which did seem to be a very manual process - but nothing really coming up for diesel. I'm assuming capabilities and workforce levels differed by depot, but would any depot have had a dedicated washer for locos - a variation on the carriage washer? I'm kind of imagining it was more a team of YTS employees with long handled brooms in the dead of night.

Spray painting would require a huge spray booth, did these even exist at the main loco works? I feel fairly sure that the yellow ends were added by brush, the finish never seemed quite as smooth and even as the blue sides. Still not sure on the polish question, would the paint buff up to a shine or are they using Turtle Wax!

 

[Cowley]

Thanks for that. Googling, there is a reasonable amount of info on the cleaning of steam locos - which did seem to be a very manual process - but nothing really coming up for diesel. I'm assuming capabilities and workforce levels differed by depot, but would any depot have had a dedicated washer for locos - a variation on the carriage washer? I'm kind of imagining it was more a team of YTS employees with long handled brooms in the dead of night.

Spray painting would require a huge spray booth, did these even exist at the main loco works? I feel fairly sure that the yellow ends were added by brush, the finish never seemed quite as smooth and even as the blue sides. Still not sure on the polish question, would the paint buff up to a shine or are they using Turtle Wax!

When I volunteered at the Mid Hants in the 1990s they were starting to put together the rake of mk2s that became “The Green Train” and they were being spray painted with two pack paint. They were also using a latex product to cover the windows etc instead of what would be a very long process of masking everything up!

Obviously things like gangway doors, axlebox covers, springs, tyres etc we still had to do with the brush and I was involved with doing that stuff. My impression was though that doing the main bulk of the coach with a spray gun was a fairly new method and I don’t think we had anything more than a corner of the shed sheeted off during the actual process of spraying.

I’ve sprayed quite a lot of stuff myself over the years and it takes quite a bit of time to set it all up compared to the time savings made when you actually apply the paint. It also goes everywhere if you’ve not prepared things properly!

I’d always assumed that paint at somewhere like Stratford back then was built up by brush - so once the repairs were done, a primer, base coat, top coat(s?) and then varnished maybe twice?

 

[Rescars]

Thanks for that. Googling, there is a reasonable amount of info on the cleaning of steam locos - which did seem to be a very manual process - but nothing really coming up for diesel. I'm assuming capabilities and workforce levels differed by depot, but would any depot have had a dedicated washer for locos - a variation on the carriage washer? I'm kind of imagining it was more a team of YTS employees with long handled brooms in the dead of night.

As an aside, IIRC Bulleid on the Southern intended that the air-smoothed casings on his Pacifics and smooth sides of Leader could be cleaned mechanically.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As far as I know painting of locos in the time in question was only ever by hand, depot or works. Don't recall any examples of 'spray booths' in any works visits from my youth. The first (to my knowledge) dedicated paint spray booth, that I had a very minor part in 'paint' matters wise (for 455's) was that at Bournemouth Depot, designed and built specifically for the 455 repaints in to the red they now carry. It came with a number stringent safeguards AFAIR for the painters concerned, which may (? - I don't know?) be a reason there has been a move of late over to vinyl wraps, as in cheaper(?), but certainly more user friendly. I don't know tbh, just surmising on these latter points.

As for cleaning, carriage washers were used for some locos, particularly those used for carriage shunting. A prime early - in my experience - example being Hull's (BG) 03's which suffered very badly from the acid in that part of the process. On other occasions, post winter time when trains became covered in grimed on muck, certainly on the SR, units were often given a 'hand bash' (manual, brushes, brooms and elbow grease) as the CWM's just couldn't remove the grime, and certainly over a number of years part of the STP plan on the SW allowed for a 450 to be diagrammed in place of a 444 on a certain diagram for about six weeks or so, which allowed for the 444's (45 in number) with their white paint, to be given a much needed clean after the winter months.

As an aside, IIRC Bulleid on the Southern intended that the air-smoothed casings on his Pacifics and smooth sides of Leader could be cleaned mechanically.

Yes, I have also read that in the past.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think paint was all done by brush until relatively modern era (eg 1990s). Including for new builds in works as well as during repaints in works.

 

[Sultan1056]

With regard to cleaning, locomotives at York were jet washed in one of the fuelling bays.

 

[Magdalia]

The most important part of diesel locomotive cleaning was the bogies, because sparks from braking could ignite accumulated oil deposits and cause bogie fires. The Eastern Region did lots of bogie cleaning in Stratford DRS where they could lift locos off their bogies using the overhead cranes.

 

[Taunton]

There's a photo somewhere of a loco being repainted at works overhaul, Crewe I think, with about half a dozen painters working side-by-side with long-handled paintbrushes. It really did look inefficient. The paint thickness must have been somewhat variable overall.

The pair of diesels on the Holyhead Breakwater line which kept their early 1950s black livery into the 1980s were apparently just touched up in spots if really required by the fitter with spray paint cans from the local DIY store. It may have been the original livery, but not necessarily paint.

 

[6Gman]

My recollection (which may be faulty) was that the Paint Shop at Crewe Works was certainly big enough to allow for spray painting. I also recall large areas masked off which surely wouldn't have been necessary for brush painting?

On loco washing, Crewe Diesel Depot was certainly supplied with a loco washer similar to a carriage washer possibly installed in the 1970s.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Doncaster Works did a lot of 'Touch Up and Varnish' on locos and the result was the classes maintained there remained in green (particularly Brush 2s, class 30s then and also Baby Deltics, together with 204 and 350 h.p. shunters) for quite a while after blue was common on locos shopped elsewhere. The B.R. emblem was replaced by double arrow, I think cream rather than white.
Toton repainted locos. from green to blue around 1968, perhaps because of their often deplorable external condition. The blue certainly looked different from the usual B.R. Blue but might have been because the green underneath affected the shade. These repaints were the ones that retained the B.R. emblem, and this was just painted around, so kept the green background.
Modern Railways (late 1960s) referred to an editorial visit to Willesden where a team were 'cleaning' Sulzer 2s with ... sandpaper.
Wolverton started spraying coaches as soon as the livery was changed to blue. The trials were on condemned coaches some of which turned up at Cransley scrapyard, odd to see blue stock being scrapped in 1968. This explains the dull finish even on ex-works coaches then, because of the difficulty in formulating paint suitable for spraying then.

 

[lostwin(m)]

Some great responses, thank you. Feels like we are piecing the bits together. Painting was likely to be by brush in the 70's & 80's, possibly with some early experiments with spay - although unlikely to have been on locos. For cleaning locos, major depots might have dedicated automated loco washers but for other places bucket and brush or maybe pressure washing machines.

Nothing definite yet on the finishing of paintwork finishes, particularly for special occassions, or even for everyday protection. Anyone aware if polishes were used?

 

[Rover]

The most important part of diesel locomotive cleaning was the bogies, because sparks from braking could ignite accumulated oil deposits and cause bogie fires. The Eastern Region did lots of bogie cleaning in Stratford DRS where they could lift locos off their bogies using the overhead cranes.

Like this:

 

[Cowley]

Like this:
View attachment 168473

I bet that’s a thoroughly unpleasant job.

 

[Towers]

Some great responses, thank you. Feels like we are piecing the bits together. Painting was likely to be by brush in the 70's & 80's, possibly with some early experiments with spay - although unlikely to have been on locos. For cleaning locos, major depots might have dedicated automated loco washers but for other places bucket and brush or maybe pressure washing machines.

Nothing definite yet on the finishing of paintwork finishes, particularly for special occassions, or even for everyday protection. Anyone aware if polishes were used?

This thread has led me to wonder how the various works and paintshops must have felt about Network Southeast livery appearing, and how time consuming its application must presumably have been!

 

[Taunton]

This thread has led me to wonder how the various works and paintshops must have felt about Network Southeast livery appearing, and how time consuming its application must presumably have been!

Probably good for overtime

 

[Towers]

Probably good for overtime

Indeed!

 

[D6130]

I can recall seeing class 20/24/25/26 & 27 locos being spray painted at St Rollox Works, Glasgow in the 1970s.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Some great responses, thank you. Feels like we are piecing the bits together. Painting was likely to be by brush in the 70's & 80's, possibly with some early experiments with spay - although unlikely to have been on locos. For cleaning locos, major depots might have dedicated automated loco washers but for other places bucket and brush or maybe pressure washing machines.

Nothing definite yet on the finishing of paintwork finishes, particularly for special occassions, or even for everyday protection. Anyone aware if polishes were used?

No polishes were used. If a loco was being prepared for a special at FP, it would be hand cleaned. Any painting would be done (by hand) by Speedy, the depot painter, who could achieve a really high standard.

At FP the Warwick bogie washer was a well used piece of kit to get muck off, especially bogies. All locos there were hand cleaned, there being no loco wash plant. I used to shop locos in between classifieds to Stratford DRS, for lift and clean.

Large WR depots had underframe cleaning areas and depots like OOC were latterly given an “Elephant House” which could jet clean locos or DMUs from underframe to top. When OOC got the cl.104 GOB sets off CW in 1987, they had to go through that facility twice before the staff would touch them. The LMR had a bad reputation when it came to underframe and bogie cleaning.

In the mid 1980’s OOC acquired two ex-Swindon Works painters and they were real craftsmen, doing a lot of hand repaints in the sector era. The standard of finish was something else and when they lined out 47484, they did the lining by hand, to the GWR spacing specification, without resorting to drawings. They just knew what they were doing.

 

[Magdalia]

Like this:

Thanks, a picture worth a thousand words!

If a loco was being prepared for a special at FP, it would be hand cleaned. Any painting would be done (by hand) by Speedy, the depot painter, who could achieve a really high standard.

Thanks. Did Speedy do the Deltic windows and the ETH class 31 stripes?

 

[Merle Haggard]

This thread has led me to wonder how the various works and paintshops must have felt about Network Southeast livery appearing, and how time consuming its application must presumably have been!

I remember that there may have been a logical order to spray the different colours with the least over-spraying, and the livery took that into account.
There was an Open Day at Wolverton Works in Autumn 1989 and I was surprised how the blue & grey livery was applied; the coach was first sprayed overall blue and the grey was applied over the top of the blue. The white 'lining' separating the two colours was tape; the 'S.P.' & date were small pieces of sticky-backed plastic (early vinyl???) pre-printed.

On the subject of loco repaints; Railfreight and its two sectorised successors were always sceptical about the value for money provided by main works. There was a detailed spec for repaints into livery with the aim of long life, an objective that initially was not achieved. The spec therefore changed to one requiring each layer from etch through to top coat to be a different colour. Perhaps the paintshop didn't expect someone to be so petty as to rub down a patch on a newly repainted loco. to check. But someone did; it was worth it...

 

[perkin]

The hand painting will almost certainly be 'coach painting'. Although it is mostly in reference to road vehicles of one sort or another, this website gives a good overview of the process and materials which will apply also to rail vehicles:

https://coachpainting.uk/

There won't be any clear coat, varnish or wax used - a very high gloss, smooth surface can be achieved by a skilled coach painter - usually better than can be achieved by spraying.

The move to using vinyls is likely related in part to modern paint/environmental standards, which are simply not an issue when applying a vinyl wrap.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The hand painting will almost certainly be 'coach painting'. Although it is mostly in reference to road vehicles of one sort or another, this website gives a good overview of the process and materials which will apply also to rail vehicles:

https://coachpainting.uk/

There won't be any clear coat, varnish or wax used - a very high gloss, smooth surface can be achieved by a skilled coach painter - usually better than can be achieved by spraying.

The move to using vinyls is likely related in part to modern paint/environmental standards, which are simply not an issue when applying a vinyl wrap.

My involvement in bus preservation over the years resulted in being able to coach paint to a tolerable standard (slap it on one panel as quickly as you can, then spread 4 times with a dry brush). Time was when 'brushing, synthetic' paint was readily available (and adding boiled linseed oil slowed down going off and added a further shine) , but changes in legislation (regarding VOCs, I think) mean that the only paint now available for brushing has the levelling qualities and drying time similar to a melted chocolate bar. Progress...

 

[Rover]

I bet that’s a thoroughly unpleasant job.

Yes it looks it. There was a group of us going round, we all gave it a wide berth!

 

[Pigeon]

From works open day visits to Crewe and Doncaster in the early 80s, I remember brush painting being used; a thick and heavy paint with a distinctive and powerful smell, of the same general class as household gloss but even less pleasant. The same kind of paint was used again on the interior woodwork when Tyseley started dolling up the local DMUs, so you would find a guard's van with a lovely new clean grey interior that seemed to remain slightly sticky for weeks, occupied by a perpetually faintly queasy guard.

 

[Cowley]

From works open day visits to Crewe and Doncaster in the early 80s, I remember brush painting being used; a thick and heavy paint with a distinctive and powerful smell, of the same general class as household gloss but even less pleasant. The same kind of paint was used again on the interior woodwork when Tyseley started dolling up the local DMUs, so you would find a guard's van with a lovely new clean grey interior that seemed to remain slightly sticky for weeks, occupied by a perpetually faintly queasy guard.

I’m not sure what they’d have used on interior woodwork but I’d generally assumed that they’d have used cellulose paint for the exterior?
I’d have expected the interior woodwork to have been painted in some kind of tough solvent based gloss personally, but that would certainly take a while to properly cure if it had been daubed on in a suitably thick manner!

 

[Pigeon]

Definitely wasn't cellulose - the solvents in that (simple aromatics) don't smell anything like it smelt (mostly long and aliphatic, and drying oil). Brush vs spray application is probably the significant difference.