Loco-hauled services - future?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Class172, 23 Oct 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

    Messages:
    3,059
    Joined:
    20 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Worcs
    With lack of rolling stock soon to become a problem in some areas of the country, would it be worthwhile reintroducing loco-hauled services in order to release much needed stock for other services?

    Let me give an example: more stock is required for services in the northern area but there is no extra stock available within TOC or in others - we could take a line which is fairly long with stations that aren't to close together such as the Settle & Carlisle line (ignore the gradients for now) and replace services with loco-hauled stock. By replacing these services, it would allow smaller DMU units (150/156 etc) to be cascaded to other lines where they can increase capacity.

    This would solve the potential rolling stock problems whilst increasing capacity on lines. Ignore the fact that the S&C has steep gradients - I am giving an example as there are many other lines that would be potential candidates. I would like to know what everyone thinks as I have been pontificating over it for a week now. Could we go as far as saying that some regional services such as HFD-BHM could have loco-hauled at peak time to increase capacity, allowing stock to go to the Chase Line for example?

    Could it work??
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,500
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    The Settle & Carlisle was used for such a scheme in about 2004, using top and tailed 37s and mark 2s to allow a 156 to be released for other duties.

    On certain longer-distance regional journeys, I think that loco hauled formations could be used to release DMUs for other duties.
     
  4. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,875
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    The ATN service was very good use of stock - a commuter service from Knaresborough into Leeds (via Harrogate etc) in the morning, when four coaches were needed...

    ...a return trip to Carlisle times well for days out from Leeds for the leisure market...

    ...an evening return from Leeds (the 17:43 IIRC, my train home at the time).

    So, the stock was used at the busiest times for each particular service (rather than being wasted during the daytime).

    Really, instead of a few operators (ATW/ Scotrail, FGW etc) having one/ two rakes of loco hauled stock it'd make more sense to me to concentrate them in one place (so that a faulty 57/67 could be covered for better). But then you'd get into arguments about which TOC is the "dumping ground"...

    For example, convert half the Cardiff - Manchester services to loco hauled (with DMUs on the other duties maintaining a direct service from West Wales every couple of hours), as they are fairly long distance with decent gaps between stations but don't need that much in the way of speed. That'd then spare some 158s for ScotRail/ FGW to swap for their loco-hauled sets...
     
  5. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    Catch 22 with this though
    Where do you obtain the additional locos and rolling stock from, for the loco-hauled service?
    We should stop being so short-term in this country and enforce the RoSCo to provide more rolling stock than there is demand for
    Time to recycle some of the stored rolling stock, rather than have it gathering dust
     
  6. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,500
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Umm, haven't you just answered your own question? Or have I missed something?
     
  7. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,032
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Would be fun to see...

    If the Mk2 and Mk3 stock kicking about spare could be modified (and include either DBSOs or DVTs) Porterbrook still has a load of DVTs kicking about aparently.

    Anyway, modify said stock to run with either TDM that isn't on that much equipment nowadays to be honest, or (and heres where I expect to be slated an idiot), AAR Control Equipment...

    Hear me out on this, how many AAR compatable locomotives are there and how much of the network can they reach?

    If Mk3 stock is to be modified with power doors anyway, why not have 66s and 67s running round with 4, 5, 6, 12, car formations of Mk3s behind them on slower long distance routes, such as S&C, Cumbrian Coast, christ, even Waterloo - Exeter?

    And if it is such that the Mk3s have power doors fitted, they could run around on commuter releif routes, or even TPE?
     
  8. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,500
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Running 66s on passenger trains would be difficult, they have no train supply so wouldn't be able to provide electricity for lighting, air-conditioning/heating, or even power doors.

    I can't think of many routes that would warrant twelve carriage loco-hauled formations when they currently witness two or three car DMUs (Sometimes working in pairs). Plus there's only a limited number of spare mark 2s and mark 3s available.

    The routes that would be top priority for loco-hauled operation for me would include:
    Settle & Carlisle
    Manchester to Cardiff
    Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness
     
  9. Yew

    Yew Established Member

    Messages:
    3,368
    Joined:
    12 Mar 2011
    Location:
    Nottingham
    What about EMT's Nottingham-Liverpool service? Thats usually formed of 2x158, so a 4/5 carriage loco service could provice extra capacity

    maybe some longer northern services? Maybe Lincoln - Sheffield - Doncaster - adwick (although im biased as that is one of my locals)
     
  10. ajax103

    ajax103 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,277
    Joined:
    28 Apr 2009
    Using 66s wouldn't be a issue IF a generator coach like they used on charters was available as they used yesterday on the Valley of the Witches charter or as they used/do use in Ireland.
     
  11. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,032
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Ahhh, you see i've thought of ETH...

    If we're converting a number of DVTs and coaches into semi fixed formations to be hauled by a 66 or 67, then fit an ETH generator (a'la'chiltern) into the DVT, along with Bike Storage etc.

    And what about Central Belt - Aberdeen services in addition to Inverness services?
     
  12. kevincoy

    kevincoy Member

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    7 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Birmingham
    One route that's always been a clear stand-out to be a loco-hauled service is Birmingham-Liverpool Lime Street. I can't for the life of me ever understand why this became effectively a semi-commuter route.

    The class 350's that operate on the route are immensely uncomfortable!
     
  13. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,500
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    DVTs fitted with generators is a really good idea which I'd failed to consider.

    As for the Aberdeen route, I feel that it's quite a likely candidate for electrification in the medium-term. I suppose if you were to utilise loco-hauled formations on the line, it might provide a source of work for some class 90s.
     
  14. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,032
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    If I was seriously considering a massive re-introduction of refurbished Mk3 + DVT Rakes, and I was working at Porterbrook (it might be worth holding your breath there, was speaking to their recruitment manager t'other day) then I would be aiming them at using 66 or 67 locomotives, independent of the type of loco, any 59, 66 or 67 could hook up and pull it with the DVT providing all the ETH, Guard's accom etc. and pass through wiring for AAR operation, and possibly other control methods too, I'd aim to create a rake that could work with at least 70% of locomotives.

    Including all these heavy freight locomotives, diesel and electric...

    Bu my count (off wikipedia) there's 26 DVTs spare at the moment...

    If the Mk2/3 vehicles need power doors anyway, while we're at it, add in the AAR passthrough wiring (and keep the other kinds) and make the ETH come from the DVT... Then we have a rake of carrages, that can be pulled by well, anything really...

    Primeraly AAR Stock 59, 66, 67, ?70
    And remaining Leccy Locos, I'd aim to have it work with the 90 and 92 (For 3rd Rail Land) by design.
     
  15. T163R

    T163R Member

    Messages:
    475
    Joined:
    15 Oct 2010
    Location:
    Paris, France
    Well there's still all that Traxx business...
     
  16. Nym

    Nym Established Member

    Messages:
    8,032
    Joined:
    2 Mar 2007
    Location:
    Somewhere, not in London
    Why bother buying locos when you can just contract DBS to run their locomotives on it?
     
  17. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,875
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    The capacity problems are mainly on DMU routes, hence the routes that have had loco hauled services introduced in recent years (with the exception of 90s on the North Berwick service for a short time).
     
  18. kevincoy

    kevincoy Member

    Messages:
    14
    Joined:
    7 Jan 2009
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Valid point, didn't really take that line of reasoning into my initial thinking!
     
  19. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    The majority of the rolling stock in storage is in very poor condition
    In general a lot of it was run into the ground, knowing it was going to be replaced imminently with newer rolling stock
    The Mark 3B DVT would be about the only rolling stock in good condition, as it is probably the newest put into storage
    The remainder has probably been sourced for spares by the RoSCo and TOC

    As an example, Porterbrook scavanged the three sleepers in storage, externally they look in good condition but once you look at the equipment (or lack of) you soon realise it would take a lot to put these back into service
    The same fate has taken place with many of the Mark 2E/F and 3A/B coaches in storage

    Whilst I do agree from the large number of coaches in storage, it would take a lot of time and effort to put together a full rake of working and serviceable coaches
    It seems that noone wants to take this forward, probably due to the initial costs and risks thereafter
     
  20. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,106
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    I think a sequential cascade could be effected if we made up some rakes. Something like this (off the top of my head, specific examples subject to potentially being impossible :P):

    • Introduce a few 6- or 7-car MkIII rakes onto PLY-EDB and MAN-BMH CrossCountry services
    • Use the Voyagers thus saved on other interregional services, such as LIV-NOR and CDF-NOT
    • Use the 158s and 170s thus saved on the longer distance routes currently operated by Pacers and 150s, such as CAR-NCL or GCR-WEY
    • Finally, use the low-capacity units you've saved to strengthen the more crowded short-distance urban and interurban diagrams

    ...or some similar chain reaction.
     
  21. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

    Messages:
    1,255
    Joined:
    12 Nov 2009
    I'm sure I remember Liverpool to Norwich being mentioned a while back on another thread, where it was pointed out that there are a number of places on the route with differential speed limits for sprinters where locos wouldn't be able to keep the timings.
     
  22. YorkshireBear

    YorkshireBear Established Member

    Messages:
    7,219
    Joined:
    23 Jul 2010
    a 4 car 158 is far better than voygers on liverpool norwich... this has been discussed before that it wouldnt really be suitable. I think the extra voyagers would be best used doubling up more XC Voyager services as they have very little spare capacity anywhere.
     
  23. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,875
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    There was suggestion of using 90s with coaches running Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh (due to the 110mph top speed), but it now looks like 350s will run that.

    I think that the priority would be diesel routes with decent gaps between stops and no reversals - the ideal candidate for that would be XC services, but loco hauled wouldn't have a hope of matching the Voyager accelerations.

    Dunno - no easy answers.
     
  24. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    Cross Country already has such trains, which were used to release Voyagers, and they already operate such services
     
  25. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,106
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    I mean in addition to their HSTs :P :lol:
     
  26. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    Where do you get the Class 90 locos from?
    Equally, a loco change would be required at Preston, until electrification is completed
    However once electrification is completed new rolling stock will be used

    Historically these services used Class 86 locos and were three to five coaches from both Glasgow and Edinburgh, runnng to Manchester Picadilly
    When this changed to Manchester Airport the service swapped to Class 158 units, makes the Class 185 look luxurious!
    It would be good enough to use such a similar loco with five Mark 2F coaches
    However would there be any benefits, over the Class 185?
     
  27. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,875
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    I thought it was fairly clear that I was talking post-electrification (hence the mention of the 350s too).

    There were a couple of threads on here adding up the 90s that are currently spare - not loads, but enough to make a dint on a bi-hourly service like that one.
     
  28. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    I doubt these will still be spare when the electrification is completed
    The stored ones are slowly being canabalised and I would expect one or two further Class 90s to be withdrawn by the time electrification is completed, hence back to my original point as read

    It is quite a shame EWS and Freightliner (or even a RoSCo) could put a case forward for a next generation electric loco to replace the remaining Class 86 and 90
     
  29. robertclark125

    robertclark125 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,488
    Joined:
    12 Mar 2008
    Location:
    Cardenden, Fife
    It may be of interest that, according to traction magazine, some UK operators have expressed an interest in acquiring the coaches that Irish Rail are putting up for sale. These do require regauging of their bogies to European standards. Don't know what other work they need to meet UK or rather british standards.
     
  30. tirphil

    tirphil Member

    Messages:
    275
    Joined:
    27 Jan 2011
    Location:
    Wales
    ATW's 158's can't be taken if there is to be any chance of an hourly service on the Cambrian. ERTMS makes cascades like this a little complicated.
     
  31. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,875
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    I don't know where ATW are meant to be getting their 158s from for the Cambrian - I was thinking that a four/five coach loco-hauled service on Cardiff - Manchester would release a two/three coach 175 for other ATW services to free up a two coach 158 (so every route gets some improvement in capacity).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page