Locos and units you didnt like and still dont miss

AM9

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But by the 21st century, the design was awful as well, and they were by far the worst trains on the network - slow, noisy and the last non-gangwayed stock anywhere. Even in pristine condition, I'd have hated travelling a long way every day on one. So...not missed for everyday use, although missed for the fun of travelling on them by choice - I think that's an important distinction.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, - this is predominately an enthusiast's forum and views expressed are likely to reflect on nostalgic memories, (good and bad ones). I remember the thumpers as a commuter in south Hampshire. They were noisy, tatty and didn't ride that well even at the low speeds that the line allowed them to get to (about 60mph max). Would I like to ride on one now, - yes, it would be a novelty, but not 10 times a week in all weathers! Even a well worn Electrostar or Desiro would seem like heaven to normal passengers in the '80s compared with what was offered in many places then.
 
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Journeyman

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Even a well worn Electrostar or Desiro would seem like heaven to normal passengers in the '80s compared with what was offered in many places then.
Absolutely - especially because newer trains have been specifically designed to be easy to keep clean and tidy, and train presentation is something that has massively improved over the last 20 years or so anyway. The lines I grew up on are currently operated by 455s which SWT refurbed to a very high standard, and although they're now quite old, they present an excellent travelling environment and are generally kept clean. When I was growing up, the SUBs and EPBs were gloomy and grim to start with, but it was made even worse by years of ingrained dirt and nicotine stains, badly patched up vandalism, and by the end of the working day the interiors would be knee-deep in rubbish. No-one would tolerate that now, no matter how nostalgic enthusiasts get.
 

tetudo boy

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Desiro City's and Aventras: They just seem extremely boring to me and we're never good in my opinion. The Desiro City's have Ironing board seat's, almost no passenger amenity, and the Aventras are just plain and boring. If we had some up to date versions of the Desiro's and the Electrostar's/Turbostar's (both using the same basic bodyshells) that would've been great. The Civity's and the A-train's we're good though.
 

D1537

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Class 31. Ugly, grossly underpowered for their weight (especially when providing ETH on the 31/4s*), and not brilliantly reliable either.

*In a burst of comedy design, the first batch of 31/4s didn't have the ETH power available even if the ETH was switched off!
 
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bramling

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But by the 21st century, the design was awful as well, and they were by far the worst trains on the network - slow, noisy and the last non-gangwayed stock anywhere. Even in pristine condition, I'd have hated travelling a long way every day on one. So...not missed for everyday use, although missed for the fun of travelling on them by choice - I think that's an important distinction.
Don’t really see what would be so bad about commuting on them to be honest. I anyways found them comfortable enough, and it’s not like the replacing Turbostars are the quickest trains either.

As mentioned elsewhere the biggest issue was vandalism, which the non-gangwayed design probably didn’t help with.

I don’t remember them being disproportionately unreliable either.
 

Dr_Paul

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I'm not sure what class they were -- perhaps someone here can give some information -- but I didn't mind the passing of the DMUs that did the suburban services out of Paddington in the 1970s and into the 1980s. Compared to the EMUs, even the old ones such as the 4-SUBs, that I regularly used to and from Waterloo, they were hopelessly sluggish, with very slow acceleration: it almost felt as if they were decelerating when changing up gears. About the only thing in their favour was one could get a view forward through the front cab, so long as the driver had raised the blind behind him. Their replacements are a lot more lively, with acceleration as good as any modern EMU; the only drawback being the usual one about seats not matching the windows (but that applies to modern EMUs as well).
 

delt1c

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I'm not sure what class they were -- perhaps someone here can give some information -- but I didn't mind the passing of the DMUs that did the suburban services out of Paddington in the 1970s and into the 1980s. Compared to the EMUs, even the old ones such as the 4-SUBs, that I regularly used to and from Waterloo, they were hopelessly sluggish, with very slow acceleration: it almost felt as if they were decelerating when changing up gears. About the only thing in their favour was one could get a view forward through the front cab, so long as the driver had raised the blind behind him. Their replacements are a lot more lively, with acceleration as good as any modern EMU; the only drawback being the usual one about seats not matching the windows (but that applies to modern EMUs as well).
Class 117's
 

Journeyman

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I'm not sure what class they were -- perhaps someone here can give some information -- but I didn't mind the passing of the DMUs that did the suburban services out of Paddington in the 1970s and into the 1980s. Compared to the EMUs, even the old ones such as the 4-SUBs, that I regularly used to and from Waterloo, they were hopelessly sluggish, with very slow acceleration: it almost felt as if they were decelerating when changing up gears. About the only thing in their favour was one could get a view forward through the front cab, so long as the driver had raised the blind behind him. Their replacements are a lot more lively, with acceleration as good as any modern EMU; the only drawback being the usual one about seats not matching the windows (but that applies to modern EMUs as well).
Class 117s were the most common on Paddington suburban services. Completely understand what you mean - they felt decidedly wheezy and arthritic compared to other trains. I'm amazed at how much has changed on those lines - frequencies have gone through the roof.
 

Cowley

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Class 117s were the most common on Paddington suburban services. Completely understand what you mean - they felt decidedly wheezy and arthritic compared to other trains. I'm amazed at how much has changed on those lines - frequencies have gone through the roof.
Those DMUs certainly felt quite old by the time they were due for replacement and the way they pulled away shuddering as they built up speed before the hissing, clunking (and slowing down) as they changed gear before farting back into life seems very ponderous now when you travel on a preserved one.
Re trains you didn’t miss - When the 142 Skippers disappeared from the southwest (the first time when they were replaced by first generation units) none of us missed them to be honest, and it was nice having the view out the front of a train back again.
 

43096

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Desiro City's and Aventras: They just seem extremely boring to me and we're never good in my opinion. The Desiro City's have Ironing board seat's, almost no passenger amenity, and the Aventras are just plain and boring. If we had some up to date versions of the Desiro's and the Electrostar's/Turbostar's (both using the same basic bodyshells) that would've been great. The Civity's and the A-train's we're good though.
That's an absolute festival of grocer's apostrophes!

This is where it gets tricky as the internal specification of the train is down to the end customer, not an inherent issue with the design itself - you could put a Class 350 type interior into a Desiro City, for example.
 

DavidB

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Pacers and HSTs. It was acceptable in the 80s, but they should have gone long before smoking was banned in public places.
Absolutely with you on Pacers - but as regards a decently-refurbished HST with power doors, I don't reckon anyone who didn't know a bit about trains would have any idea how old they are. What in particular do you object to about them?
 

Ken H

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Cl 304 EMU. or AM4 if you prefer.

They used to run one from Rugby to Manchester via Stafford and Stoke in the early morning, and I had to do that once a week for 2 months for work. bouncy bouncy bouncy.
Stopped every station. Except the ones between Stockport and Piccadilly as it fan on the fast lines.
 

Clarence Yard

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What was availability? How many running on one engine at a time?

I'm not that bothered as I don't like them. Never have. Never will. Which is the point of this thread!
18 out of 22 at one time with more than one diagram on triple KX-Edinburgh or Edinburgh-KX trips a day.

The secret was to keep them warm and working relatively hard. They had the highest miles per casualty figure for all the ER/ScR type 4 and 5 diesels for years, until the mid 1970's materials issues affected them and some other classes.

They ended their days on semi fast work that really didn't do them any good (stop start work isn't what a Deltic engine is best at) and with the emphasis gone rapid engine changes, ER could run them for longer on OE and, after the HST's appeared drop them to 50% availability.
 

yorksrob

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But by the 21st century, the design was awful as well, and they were by far the worst trains on the network - slow, noisy and the last non-gangwayed stock anywhere. Even in pristine condition, I'd have hated travelling a long way every day on one. So...not missed for everyday use, although missed for the fun of travelling on them by choice - I think that's an important distinction.
Well, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this one :)

All I can say is that I have been both a long term leisure traveller and commuter in my time, so I feel that my judgement of what I appreciate in rolling stock stretches across both work and leisure travel.

I think that in the same way that I appreciate 144's as trains in spite of their shortcomings, I would appreciate the thumpers. Also, I was around when NSE had just facelifted them and they'd made a lovely job of them, so I had experienced them when pristine as well as in their final days.
 

yorksrob

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Don’t really see what would be so bad about commuting on them to be honest. I anyways found them comfortable enough, and it’s not like the replacing Turbostars are the quickest trains either.

As mentioned elsewhere the biggest issue was vandalism, which the non-gangwayed design probably didn’t help with.

I don’t remember them being disproportionately unreliable either.
Absolutely spot on.

And to be honest, I don't remember the thumpers on the Marshlink (post NSE) being massively affected by vandalism either.
 

bramling

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Absolutely spot on.

And to be honest, I don't remember the thumpers on the Marshlink (post NSE) being massively affected by vandalism either.
You’re right on that, and I suspect that’s because that route tended to get allocated the three gangwayed 207s plus the sole gangwayed 205, so there was always the guard keeping some kind of eye on things.

The non-gangwayed 205s fared worse, though this was mainly scratching of the wood panelling. The Uckfield line despite being largely posher end of neck still suffered in that respect, especially as it was quite easy then to get a carriage to one’s self for most or all of a journey off-peak.

I’d have a 205 or 207 for my commute any day TBH.
 

yorksrob

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You’re right on that, and I suspect that’s because that route tended to get allocated the three gangwayed 207s plus the sole gangwayed 205, so there was always the guard keeping some kind of eye on things.

The non-gangwayed 205s fared worse, though this was mainly scratching of the wood panelling. The Uckfield line despite being largely posher end of neck still suffered in that respect, especially as it was quite easy then to get a carriage to one’s self for most or all of a journey off-peak.

I’d have a 205 or 207 for my commute any day TBH.
Yes, I think Ashford - Hastings was nicely out of the way, so avoided some of the urban strains.

I've often thought that the 207's would have been naturals for gangways from the start, but just weren't main line enough when built.

Agree wholeheartedly with your last point.
 

alistairlees

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I travelled on thumpers a few times from Eridge to Victoria (commuting to work). I still remember being somewhat surprised, as I sat down next to the window, to be able to see through a pretty wide (a quarter of an inch?) gap between the bottom of the door and the floor straight on to the track ballast, as we travelled along. The door was correctly shut. It was quite difficult to keep your feet / legs warm with the cold draught coming through.

Undoubtedly modern-day commuters on Electrostars with air conditioning and perfectly good seats on 375s (except 375/9s) would welcome such features.
 

yorksrob

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I travelled on thumpers a few times from Eridge to Victoria (commuting to work). I still remember being somewhat surprised, as I sat down next to the window, to be able to see through a pretty wide (a quarter of an inch?) gap between the bottom of the door and the floor straight on to the track ballast, as we travelled along. The door was correctly shut. It was quite difficult to keep your feet / legs warm with the cold draught coming through.

Undoubtedly modern-day commuters on Electrostars with air conditioning and perfectly good seats on 375s (except 375/9s) would welcome such features.
On a day like today I would welcome the ventilation (on all others I would wear a jumper).
 

bramling

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Yes, I think Ashford - Hastings was nicely out of the way, so avoided some of the urban strains.

I've often thought that the 207's would have been naturals for gangways from the start, but just weren't main line enough when built.

Agree wholeheartedly with your last point.
I wouldn’t necessarily say Ashford Hastings was that docile. I remember Ore station in particular being in a horrific state at one point in Connex days, literally every single piece of the station that could be easily smashed up was. One would think Uckfield would be tranquil, but even that route had its moments. Neither route being anything like the North Kent line though!
 

Journeyman

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I wouldn’t necessarily say Ashford Hastings was that docile. I remember Ore station in particular being in a horrific state at one point in Connex days, literally every single piece of the station that could be easily smashed up was. One would think Uckfield would be tranquil, but even that route had its moments. Neither route being anything like the North Kent line though!
Yeah, Ore was allowed to decline into terrible condition. Hastings has suffered a lot from crime and social problems - it's a while since I was last there, but the station toilets had anti-junkie blue lights in them, which is never a good sign.
 

Journeyman

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I've often thought that the 207's would have been naturals for gangways from the start, but just weren't main line enough when built.
The decision not to gangway the 207s was incredibly stupid, and I can't believe it got signed off.
 

yorksrob

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I wouldn’t necessarily say Ashford Hastings was that docile. I remember Ore station in particular being in a horrific state at one point in Connex days, literally every single piece of the station that could be easily smashed up was. One would think Uckfield would be tranquil, but even that route had its moments. Neither route being anything like the North Kent line though!
Yeah, Ore was allowed to decline into terrible condition. Hastings has suffered a lot from crime and social problems - it's a while since I was last there, but the station toilets had anti-junkie blue lights in them, which is never a good sign.
Hastings itself manages to remain pleasant, in spite of social/economic problems, but Ore went from being a pleasent country station to looking like some sort of top-secret government facility.

I remember seeing it just after the building had been burnt down but before it was demolished. A very sad decline.

The decision not to gangway the 207s was incredibly stupid, and I can't believe it got signed off.
A short sighted decision.
 

NoMorePacers

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On the contrary to what has been written earlier on, I miss 142s serving my local station but I can't really say that I miss 144s coming around here.
 

Purple Orange

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Absolutely with you on Pacers - but as regards a decently-refurbished HST with power doors, I don't reckon anyone who didn't know a bit about trains would have any idea how old they are. What in particular do you object to about them?
For the most part they were not to the standard that many were eventually refurbished to. It wasn't that long ago that the HST units were still looking like they did in the 70s and 80s. When travelling on the ECML there was a distinct difference in the passenger experience compared to a 225. This is before we get to the fact that it is spewing diesel fumes in to the air - something I hate about trains generally (there is a much cleaner solution but the powers that be are not prioritising it). They were fine prior to the introduction of 225s and since then there has been a better intercity train running on the network.
 

Richard Scott

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For the most part they were not to the standard that many were eventually refurbished to. It wasn't that long ago that the HST units were still looking like they did in the 70s and 80s. When travelling on the ECML there was a distinct difference in the passenger experience compared to a 225. This is before we get to the fact that it is spewing diesel fumes in to the air - something I hate about trains generally (there is a much cleaner solution but the powers that be are not prioritising it). They were fine prior to the introduction of 225s and since then there has been a better intercity train running on the network.
Digressing I believe there was a plan to dispense with HSTs altogether when 91s came in doing a loco change for modified TDM fitted 47s at Edinburgh to serve Aberdeen, Inverness and any other diesel areas?
 

61653 HTAFC

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For the most part they were not to the standard that many were eventually refurbished to. It wasn't that long ago that the HST units were still looking like they did in the 70s and 80s. When travelling on the ECML there was a distinct difference in the passenger experience compared to a 225. This is before we get to the fact that it is spewing diesel fumes in to the air - something I hate about trains generally (there is a much cleaner solution but the powers that be are not prioritising it). They were fine prior to the introduction of 225s and since then there has been a better intercity train running on the network.
I'd always aim for the 125 services rather than 225s, because despite their age the Mk3s always rode far better than the Mk4s.
 

DavidB

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For the most part they were not to the standard that many were eventually refurbished to. It wasn't that long ago that the HST units were still looking like they did in the 70s and 80s. When travelling on the ECML there was a distinct difference in the passenger experience compared to a 225. This is before we get to the fact that it is spewing diesel fumes in to the air - something I hate about trains generally (there is a much cleaner solution but the powers that be are not prioritising it). They were fine prior to the introduction of 225s and since then there has been a better intercity train running on the network.
Since the GNER refurbishments (last ones completed under NXEC in 2008) the interiors of the Mk4 sets and HSTs running on the ECML were virtually identical.
 

yorksrob

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It was more than that. It's one of the reasons why I'm of the opinion that most of BR's slam-door suburban and semi-fast multiple units were absolutely dreadful. Other reasons are available.
Well, I've had hundreds of perfectly pleasant, comfortable journeys on them, so one can't really ask for much more.
 

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