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London 2050 Tube Map

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ashsha1

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Hi All,

I came across this video on the 2050 tube map? Seems to be from the London Infrastructure Plan which seems straight from the government!


Here's hoping the Bakerloo line extends finally...
 
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MotCO

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Intriguingly, Crossrail still has not been connected across London, and there is no branch to Abbet Wood. I knew it had been delayed, but by 30 years???
 

Enthusiast

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I do not believe there will be much, if anything, in the way of developments involving long stretches of tunnelling by 2050 (in fact some on the map are pencilled in for 2040). There may be an extension to the Northern Line to Clapham Junction but that's about all I can see happening. An extension to the Bakerloo? I was told that was "imminent" before Routemasters (the proper ones, not the BoJo ones) hit the streets. Dream on!!!
 

rebmcr

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I do not believe there will be much, if anything, in the way of developments involving long stretches of tunnelling by 2050 (in fact some on the map are pencilled in for 2040). There may be an extension to the Northern Line to Clapham Junction but that's about all I can see happening. An extension to the Bakerloo? I was told that was "imminent" before Routemasters (the proper ones, not the BoJo ones) hit the streets. Dream on!!!

Bakerloo extension is already in the final stage of public consultation.
 

bluegoblin7

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I think it's fair to say that any projects that haven't already begun construction (i.e. Crossrail and the Northern line extension) will be subject to change following the Covid-19 pandemic. It remains to be seen how travel in London will alter, and if levels will fully return to their previous amounts.
 

Bald Rick

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Bakerloo extension is already in the final stage of public consultation.

There was no money for it beforehand the virus, and certainly won’t be any afterwards.

And it wasn’t in the final stages of public consultation, far from it. It is way behind Crossrail 2 in the development process.
 

rebmcr

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There was no money for it beforehand the virus, and certainly won’t be any afterwards.

And it wasn’t in the final stages of public consultation, far from it. It is way behind Crossrail 2 in the development process.

Not sure I agree, though you may have more facts than I do. As far as I'm aware CR2 hasn't even selected a preferred route yet, but BLE has decided on the final route and selected preferred station locations.
 

Bald Rick

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Not sure I agree, though you may have more facts than I do. As far as I'm aware CR2 hasn't even selected a preferred route yet, but BLE has decided on the final route and selected preferred station locations.

CR2 preferred route was ‘selected’ years ago, and is a lot, lot further down the development process than BLE.
 

rebmcr

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CR2 preferred route was ‘selected’ years ago, and is a lot, lot further down the development process than BLE.
Where's that then? Balham? Tooting Broadway? Wood Green? Seven Sisters?

Their own site shows a map from 2015 with all four variations, and a 'maybe' through Hackney: https://crossrail2.co.uk/route/route-map/

BLE has a 2019 station consultation with the route locked in.
 

simple simon

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To my eyes past experience suggests that pinning one's hopes for what that film shows - especially by 2050 - is nothing more than 'pie in the sky' / 'wishful thinking' hopium!

Great plans for brand new lines were drawn up in the mid 1940s. All for the post-war rebuilding. What did we end up with?

A watered down Victoria line that to save money was built for small profile tube trains instead of the planned subsurface / mainline size trains. A line that would probably not have been built 'today' because its financial cost / benefit ratio does not meet present-day criteria.

Thats it. The Jubilee line was not part of the plan.

Indeed... not only were schemes such as tube trains to Yeading via High Street Kensington and the Uxbridge Road not built but neither was any of the already constructed Northern line works completed - Northern Heights and High-Speed tube / Northern line relief from south London (although some of the stations were built as WW2 air raid shelters).

Instead London has lost railways - branch lines such as to Uxbridge, Palace Gates, Crystal Palace High Level, South Acton, Stanmore (LMS), Edgware Road - Kensington Olympia and of course the previously mentioned Northern Heights.

I am well aware that the DLR is new but in reality it was largely about re-opening lines that closed in WW2 or when the docks closed in later years (as part of urban regeneration)

Its well known that railway services in the Wood Green area of north London are heavily oversubscribed. If the Northern Heights line via Muswell Hill had been successfully incorporated in the Northern line and the Palace Gates service not closed (this went to Stratford and North Woolwich ... imagine how popular such a line would have been nowadays - said with Westfield in mind) then the Piccadilly and Great Northern services would not now be so over-subscribed. Retaining the trams would have helped too. So, far from moving forwards, this part of London has gone backwards.

Whatever happened to the planned (mostly outer suburban) rapid-transit schemes that at one stage were even going to be shown on the iconic Tube Map - such as Greenwich Waterfront Tramway? Scrapped. Cross River Tramway? Scrapped. West London Tramway (or even Trolleybusway?) Scrapped. Whilst East London Transit was 'sort of realised' the reality is that what really happened is several existing bus routes were renumbered (eg: 369, 387) and partially reconfigured plus given brand new high profile buses and bus stop shelters. But they are still diesel hybrid buses - the plans included trolleybuses as a possibility that would make the system as environmentally beneficial and non polluting as Croydon's trams but this aspect was scrapped because the planning process was so onerous and long-winded.

As for the 2050 map, I still remember big plans drawn up in circa 1974, yes 40 years ago, and still not even Crossrail 1 has opened. The only way I can see the 2050 plans coming to fruition (its only 30 years from now!!!) is if our system of transport planning and building changes and we get people in power who will (metaphorically) move mountains and act forcefully to get things done. Oh and it needs public inquires which actually listen to local people - rather than being there just to rubber-stamp a pre-decided agenda (as per West London Tramway and Beeching rail closure sham consultations).

Right now the Covid virus pandemic has royally messed up our nation's finances and we can barely afford much-needed new trains for the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central lines, let alone new lines, extensions etc. In fact we do not even know the full extent of how seriously our nation's coffers have been compromised - that will probably not be revealed until 2021. Getting Crossrail 1 open will likely be the top priority, but apart from that....
 
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Busaholic

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To my eyes past experience suggests that pinning one's hopes for what that film shows - especially by 2050 - is nothing more than 'pie in the sky' / 'wishful thinking' hopium!

Great plans for brand new lines were drawn up in the mid 1940s. All for the post-war rebuilding. What did we end up with?

A watered down Victoria line that to save money was built for small profile tube trains instead of the planned subsurface / mainline size trains. A line that would probably not have been built 'today' because its financial cost / benefit ratio does not meet present-day criteria.

Thats it. The Jubilee line was not part of the plan.

Indeed... not only were schemes such as tube trains to Yeading via High Street Kensington and the Uxbridge Road not built but neither was any of the already constructed Northern line works completed - Northern Heights and High-Speed tube / Northern line relief from south London (although some of the stations were built as WW2 air raid shelters).

Instead London has lost railways - branch lines such as to Uxbridge, Palace Gates, Crystal Palace High Level, South Acton, Stanmore (LMS), Edgware Road - Kensington Olympia and of course the previously mentioned Northern Heights.

I am well aware that the DLR is new but in reality it was largely about re-opening lines that closed in WW2 or when the docks closed in later years (as part of urban regeneration)

Its well known that railway services in the Wood Green area of north London are heavily oversubscribed. If the Northern Heights line via Muswell Hill had been successfully incorporated in the Northern line and the Palace Gates service not closed (this went to Stratford and North Woolwich ... imagine how popular such a line would have been nowadays - said with Westfield in mind) then the Piccadilly and Great Northern services would not now be so over-subscribed. Retaining the trams would have helped too. So, far from moving forwards, this part of London has gone backwards.

Whatever happened to the planned (mostly outer suburban) rapid-transit schemes that at one stage were even going to be shown on the iconic Tube Map - such as Greenwich Waterfront Tramway? Scrapped. Cross River Tramway? Scrapped. West London Tramway (or even Trolleybusway?) Scrapped. Whilst East London Transit was 'sort of realised' the reality is that what really happened is several existing bus routes were renumbered (eg: 369, 387) and partially reconfigured plus given brand new high profile buses and bus stop shelters. But they are still diesel hybrid buses - the plans included trolleybuses as a possibility that would make the system as environmentally beneficial and non polluting as Croydon's trams but this aspect was scrapped because the planning process was so onerous and long-winded.

As for the 2050 map, I still remember big plans drawn up in circa 1974, yes 40 years ago, and still not even Crossrail 1 has opened. The only way I can see the 2050 plans coming to fruition (its only 30 years from now!!!) is if our system of transport planning and building changes and we get people in power who will (metaphorically) move mountains and act forcefully to get things done. Oh and it needs public inquires which actually listen to local people - rather than being there just to rubber-stamp a pre-decided agenda (as per West London Tramway and Beeching rail closure sham consultations).

Right now the Covid virus pandemic has royally messed up our nation's finances and we can barely afford much-needed new trains for the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Central lines, let alone new lines, extensions etc. In fact we do not even know the full extent of how seriously our nation's coffers have been compromised - that will probably not be revealed until 2021. Getting Crossrail 1 open will likely be the top priority, but apart from that....
An excellent summary, to which I'd only add 'but thank God the Victoria Line did get built, in quick time and not significantly over budget, because where would London, particularly North and North East, be without it now?'

Trolleybuses brought back to Barking, given that they can incorporate off-wire battery operation for significant lengths these days, should have happened imo and the failure to do so indicated to me that it was probable there'd be no more such schemes, let alone more trams, for the foreseeable future.
 

simple simon

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An excellent summary, to which I'd only add 'but thank God the Victoria Line did get built, in quick time and not significantly over budget, because where would London, particularly North and North East, be without it now?'

Trolleybuses brought back to Barking, given that they can incorporate off-wire battery operation for significant lengths these days, should have happened imo and the failure to do so indicated to me that it was probable there'd be no more such schemes, let alone more trams, for the foreseeable future.

Thanks.

When I consider just how successful the Victoria line has been I find it painful to think that present-day financial criteria are so utterly hostile that it could not be built 'today'. Anyway, yes, north-east London has benefited tremendously from its construction, indeed even the people of Wood Green have benefited, albeit only indirectly via faster journeys if they switch to it at Finsbury Park.

But there has been mixed blessings in north-east London, as the decision-makers took advantage of the extra capacity to reduce train frequencies on the services on mainline routes out of Liverpool Street that now form part of the Overground network. (eg: to Chingford) This was done to introduce new services - such as the Stansted Express. Another way that the people of north east London have lost out is that for some reason (short sighted penny pinching?) a short curved section of track was not electrified in the 1960s, thereby rendering impossible former steam era services to Stratford. (i think its named Hall Farm?)

As for bus electrification, I think that TfL are firmly embedded in the BYD sphere of thinking, this being to charge overnight. Nothing more. Even the opportunity charging trails with two specially equipped Volvo Oppcharge SRM buses was cancelled. What you described is often called in-motion charging (IMC) and whilst (so far) it has been shunned here in the UK for buses it is used on the West Midlands Metro tramway. Yes, I'd like to see it used on bus services too, as then the buses would benefit from virtually unlimited daily range, with fewer batteries - and more space (especially headroom!) at the back of the lower deck!
 

Bald Rick

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But there has been mixed blessings in north-east London, as the decision-makers took advantage of the extra capacity to reduce train frequencies on the services on mainline routes out of Liverpool Street that now form part of the Overground network. (eg: to Chingford) This was done to introduce new services - such as the Stansted Express. Another way that the people of north east London have lost out is that for some reason (short sighted penny pinching?) a short curved section of track was not electrified in the 1960s, thereby rendering impossible former steam era services to Stratford. (i think its named Hall Farm?)

Reasonably sure the Chingford frequencies were dropped when the Vic Line opened in 69/70, and the Stansteds didn’t start for another 2 decades. The two things are not linked (in that way).

Also, I’m sure I’ve read that the Hall Farm curve was electrified. I may be wrong.
 

Mikey C

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Reasonably sure the Chingford frequencies were dropped when the Vic Line opened in 69/70, and the Stansteds didn’t start for another 2 decades. The two things are not linked (in that way).

Also, I’m sure I’ve read that the Hall Farm curve was electrified. I may be wrong.
Hall Farm Curve was removed completely! It would have enabled Chingford to Stratford services, which certainly in recent years would have been of some use

 

Bald Rick

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Hall Farm Curve was removed completely! It would have enabled Chingford to Stratford services, which certainly in recent years would have been of some use


Yes, I know that, but I’m fairly sure it was electrified before removal.

And whilst I can see how Chingford - Stratford would be useful, it would now be at the expense of Stratford to Tottenham (and beyond) services.
 

MikeWh

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Yes, I know that, but I’m fairly sure it was electrified before removal.
It was. From the wikipeadia page linked above:
In 1960 the Chingford line was electrified, and overhead wires erected over the Hall Farm curve, but not the Stratford line. It was still used as a diversionary and freight route, using diesel haulage. However, British Rail closed the line in 1968 and removed the track from the curve in 1970.
 

simple simon

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Yes, I know that, but I’m fairly sure it was electrified before removal.

And whilst I can see how Chingford - Stratford would be useful, it would now be at the expense of Stratford to Tottenham (and beyond) services.

The original plan for Crossrail 2 included a possibility for the Chingford branch to act as one of the northern routes. I still see this as being worthwhile. If services can 'fan out' and serve a range of destinations to the south-west then it would make sense to do likewise in the north-east. Including Chingford would benefit the rest of the services as then there would be sufficient track capacity for them too to be given a full 15 minute interval daily service (maybe even more in the peaks).
 

Bald Rick

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The original plan for Crossrail 2 included a possibility for the Chingford branch to act as one of the northern routes. I still see this as being worthwhile. If services can 'fan out' and serve a range of destinations to the south-west then it would make sense to do likewise in the north-east. Including Chingford would benefit the rest of the services as then there would be sufficient track capacity for them too to be given a full 15 minute interval daily service (maybe even more in the peaks).

Not sure which original plan you’re referring too, but to my knowledge Chingford hasn’t been in the mix for Crossrail 2 for at least a decade, and there’s no chance of that changing.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Not sure which original plan you’re referring too, but to my knowledge Chingford hasn’t been in the mix for Crossrail 2 for at least a decade, and there’s no chance of that changing.

The initial modelling work for Crossrail 1 (the scheme murdered by the Tories in 1996) , had an option for a feed into the Chingford service via grade seperation and the restroration of the Hall Farm curve. The plan being to relieve the Victoria line (which had stripped traffic off the NE London suburban network, especially south of Walthamstow and Seven Sisters.

The idea was knocked out before I came along , as there was plenty of business offering off the Shenfield line , and the then Central line with 1962TS and non-centralised signalling , was deemed more of an issue. Of course , Stratford had not really grown in the early 1990's to what is today.
 

Sad Sprinter

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Something tells me most of this won't happen. I really can't see CR2 happening as it was looking a bit precarious after Brexit, now with the Virus on top I think its gone for good.

That said, the Victoria Line will still need relieving though, it has done since the late 80s. So perhaps a simple Clapham Junction-Victoria-Euston-Angel-Hackney line will be built
 
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