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London Bridge Fiasco 2/6/15

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ComUtoR

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in all honesty I'd have probably done the same if there was a station nearby.

750V DC, Ballast, 4ft Drop ? You would risk that because you can't wait ? You aren't "trapped" I do understand how closed in it can become (I've been there) but by stepping out you become part of the problem and put yourself at risk.

It is also trespass.

So even though the egressing caused the biggest delay and you know there is a significant danger you would still do it :/

*edit*

What would prevent you from doing it ? Accepting that a delay can be had for an extended period. What can we do to prevent you from pulling the passcom/egress ?
 
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HilversumNS

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(Adopts schoolmaster tone) I'm not going to say this again, but the delays were only 2 hours because the idiots detrained. Had they stayed put, delays would have been half hour max.

Were they told this?

Perhaps an announcement such as "Please do not attempt to leave the train as you may fry, you will be trespassing on the railways, and you will cause severe delays for which you will be billed" will help?
 

Bald Rick

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Were they told this?

Perhaps an announcement such as "Please do not attempt to leave the train as you may fry, you will be trespassing on the railways, and you will cause severe delays for which you will be billed" will help?

No idea.

How many people have been on a plane delayed on the Tarmac at arrival airport, waiting a gate, have pulled the emergency egress and got out? Perhaps it's because they understand the consequences?

I think anyone guilty of this should have the book thrown at them. A couple of stiff prison sentences for endangering the safety of passengers (which is what being stranded on a train for 2 hours without power arguably is) would soon stamp it out.
 

Antman

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No idea.

How many people have been on a plane delayed on the Tarmac at arrival airport, waiting a gate, have pulled the emergency egress and got out? Perhaps it's because they understand the consequences?

I think anyone guilty of this should have the book thrown at them. A couple of stiff prison sentences for endangering the safety of passengers (which is what being stranded on a train for 2 hours without power arguably is) would soon stamp it out.

Prison sentence? Are you for real?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Were they told this?

Perhaps an announcement such as "Please do not attempt to leave the train as you may fry, you will be trespassing on the railways, and you will cause severe delays for which you will be billed" will help?

Surprising as it may seem I think the average passenger does have the sense to avoid the live rail
 

HilversumNS

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How many people have been on a plane delayed on the Tarmac at arrival airport, waiting a gate, have pulled the emergency egress and got out? Perhaps it's because they understand the consequences?

It has happened: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...t-seven-hour-delay-lack-air-conditioning.html
Two passengers aboard a flight in China have been jailed after opening the plane’s emergency exit doors in protest at a lengthy delay.

The plane was taxiing on the runway when a man named as Mr Zhou reportedly opened three emergency exits to prevent the plane from taking off and forcing it to return to the gate.

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...mbai-exiting-airport-without-apprehended.html
A passenger on board a Jet Airways flight opened the emergency exit and leapt onto the tarmac in a worrying security breach at Mumbai Airport in India.
Jet Airways' Chandigarh to Mumbai flight 9W469 had landed around five minutes earlier before a man, who has been named locally as Akash Jain, sprang into action.
He is reported to have opened the emergency exit in the middle of the plane, and jumped 15 feet down onto the tarmac.
 

Antman

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750V DC, Ballast, 4ft Drop ? You would risk that because you can't wait ? You aren't "trapped" I do understand how closed in it can become (I've been there) but by stepping out you become part of the problem and put yourself at risk.

It is also trespass.

So even though the egressing caused the biggest delay and you know there is a significant danger you would still do it :/

*edit*

What would prevent you from doing it ? Accepting that a delay can be had for an extended period. What can we do to prevent you from pulling the passcom/egress ?

It would obviously depend on the circumstances, location etc.

I once spent about 20 minutes (it seemed a lot longer) stuck on a hot and crowded Northern Line tube in a tunnel and it's not something I'd wish on my worst enemy.
 

Bald Rick

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Prison sentence? Are you for real?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Surprising as it may seem I think the average passenger does have the sense to avoid the live rail

Yes absolutely for real. If you deliberately decide to contravene clear safety notices such that you cause tens of thousands of people to be stranded for a couple of hours with no heat, light, water and potentially no sanitation, I'd say that was worth a stretch.

If you pull the emergency escape on a plane, you could expect the same.


Trouble about averages, is that there are plenty who are below average. And many do not have the sense to avoid the live rail, hence why several people each year end up dead when they touch it.
 
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Antman

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Yes absolutely for real. If you deliberately decide to contravene clear safety notices such that you cause tens of thousands of people to be stranded for a couple of hours with no heat, light, water and potentially no sanitation, I'd say that was worth a stretch.

If you pull the emergency escape on a plane, you could expect the same.


Trouble about averages, is that there are plenty who are below average. And many do not have the sense to avoid the live rail, hence why several people each year end up dead when they touch it.

Well TOC's NR and BTP all seem to take a far more pragmatic view on such situations.

The average graffiti merchant clearly has the sense to avoid any live rails, but of course all passengers are idiots:roll:
 

Robertj21a

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Surely the whole point is what communication was given to the passengers ?.

If they were told what was happening, roughly how long they might have to wait etc then anyone being 'silly' and jumping out should be dealt with severely.

However, if passengers receive no/poor communication and have no idea when they will be released then it becomes far more likely (and even understandable) that some will 'escape'.

I don't care what rules there are, or even how highly sensible they probably are, at some point most people receiving no communication may consider that it's time to make their own decisions rather than wait for others.
 

Bald Rick

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Well TOC's NR and BTP all seem to take a far more pragmatic view on such situations.

TOCs, NR and BTP do not have jurisdiction over such matters. That is reserved for the courts.

The view in this railway office is that severe punishment is required. If not prison, then 6 months permanent nights digging out wet spots for no pay.

But I do agree the key point is communication to passengers in such situations.
 

moggie

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The trouble is I suspect that most of them will conclude;

1. they won't find out who I am.

2 There won't be enough staff around to do anything.

3. they won't wast time mounting a prosecution.

4 I'll blame the railway for incompetence and false imprisonment or some other wild fantasy victim stance.

5. I'm right and I don't give a to55.

I think the only deterrent for these will be to see someone fry to bring it home how foolish they are. So - leave the damn power on to maintain a degree of comfort for those who have a brain, use it and stay on the train until advised by train crew that they should evacuate.
 

Robertj21a

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The trouble is I suspect that most of them will conclude;

1. they won't find out who I am.

2 There won't be enough staff around to do anything.

3. they won't wast time mounting a prosecution.

4 I'll blame the railway for incompetence and false imprisonment or some other wild fantasy victim stance.

5. I'm right and I don't give a to55.

I think the only deterrent for these will be to see someone fry to bring it home how foolish they are. So - leave the damn power on to maintain a degree of comfort for those who have a brain, use it and stay on the train until advised by train crew that they should evacuate.


Agreed - PROVIDED THAT there is good communication and that we're not talking of something that drags on for, say, 2+ hours. At some stage (no idea what/when) it's inevitable that individuals will make their own arrangements if the powers that be are not seen to be doing much.

How long would you wait (without food, water etc) ?
 

DarloRich

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Surely the whole point is what communication was given to the passengers ?.

If they were told what was happening, roughly how long they might have to wait etc then anyone being 'silly' and jumping out should be dealt with severely.

However, if passengers receive no/poor communication and have no idea when they will be released then it becomes far more likely (and even understandable) that some will 'escape'.

I don't care what rules there are, or even how highly sensible they probably are, at some point most people receiving no communication may consider that it's time to make their own decisions rather than wait for others.

The problem is that it isn't clear how long a delay will last. There isn't a Haynes Railway Operations manual to call on.

Consider how long it might take to simply find the fault let alone call out the right men, equipment, spares etc, get them to site then get to work the test and close out the fault.

Now i fully agree that communication needs to be better but it needs to be meaningful communication. The authorities also need to consider the fact that people (especially in the south east) seem to bail at the slightest provocation and develop systems and responses to manage that situation.
 

jopsuk

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No idea.

How many people have been on a plane delayed on the Tarmac at arrival airport, waiting a gate, have pulled the emergency egress and got out? Perhaps it's because they understand the consequences?.


I was once on a plane diverted to Birmingham (should have been Stansted). We had an extended delay. To get information, the pilot needed to get off- so the air stair was deployed and door opened. We were warned in no uncertain terms that should any of us disembark without permission we would be swiftly arrested.
 

Antman

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I was once on a plane diverted to Birmingham (should have been Stansted). We had an extended delay. To get information, the pilot needed to get off- so the air stair was deployed and door opened. We were warned in no uncertain terms that should any of us disembark without permission we would be swiftly arrested.

But if passengers all got off en masse do you think they would all have been arrested?
 

Chris M

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But if passengers all got off en masse do you think they would all have been arrested?

Airside at an airport is a secure, contained* area. They would all have been arrested.

*in most cases. You could make a swim for it from London City, but you'd end up very wet and the local police could get to the other side before you even if they didn't dispatch the rescue boat to come and get you.

---------

Back to the railways though. On the occasions I have been on a train that's gone nowhere for a signficant length of time, almost all have been at stations. E.g. Last September, signalling failures on the Brighton Mainline meant we were stuck at Haywards Heath for about 45 minutes, but the driver explained what was happening and opened the doors to let us on and off as we chose although most people stayed on board. I happened to overhear the driver complaining to a member of station staff that he was meant to be a Brighton Express but could be prosecuted under the trade descriptions act (we pulled into Haywards Heath about 20 minutes later than we should have been passing through iirc).

Circa 2009 I was on a DMU heading from Bristol Temple Meads towards Weston-super-Mare. North of Nailsea and Backwell the guard was at least verbally assaulted* by a passenger who did not have a ticket and retreated to the rear cab (I was travelling in the rear car). The train came to a stop a few moments later and then after a few minutes the driver came striding through the train and spent a good 10-15 minutes in the rear cab with the guard. Eventually we did get on the move again to Nailsea & Backwell but the doors were not released for another ~10 minutes until the BTP arrived. I don't recall any communication but at least in the carriage I was in we had all to some-extent witnessed what had happened and there was no problems beyond muttering. Apparently though, despite this being a pretty much full service I was the only one who was prepared to give my details and a full statement to the BTP.

*The BTP said he claimed to have been physically assaulted, and his reaction was consistent with this, but I didn't actually see anything other than a verbal assault from where I was sat.

Most relevant perhaps was on a London-bound FGW HST where we stopped somewhere east of Slough "due to a bit of metal making a lot of noise beneath coach C" (I was in coach A and so wasn't aware of anything but clearly remember the explanation given). After what felt like about 20-30 minutes stationary we pulled into West Drayton ("waiting for a fitter to arrive from Swindon" or words to that effect) yet still it was a good 20-30 minutes before the doors were released and we all overloaded an all-station service to Paddington (I can't remember if it was Thames Trains or FGWL, definitely pre FGW operating the locals) and I think that might have been a reaction to (threatened) self-evacuate.

The bottom line, from a passenger point of view, is that if you keep us locked on a train without telling us why, then sooner or later we will self-evacuate. How long you have depends on the proximity of a station (any station) - if all or part of the train is in a platform you probably only have 20 minutes at most unless there is a reason obvious to a passenger who knows nothing about railways. If the train is not in a platform but we can see one or enough passengers know there is one just round the corner, you probably have 45-60 minutes tops. If we can't see a station then you've probably got 1-2 hours.
If you do tell us why you just buy yourself time. How much extra time depends on how good the reason sounds to someone who doesn't know anything about railways.
 

amcluesent

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The days of treating pax like sheeple are over, 90% of London commuters will have smartphones with apps that'll show the delays/cancellations and the social media of the ToC

When pax can see the station out the train window and are able to whistle-up a taxi using Uber and track the taxis arrival, egressing is only going to increase unless the guard/driver can give credible information that matches what peeps are reading on Twitter etc
 
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