London Bridge - future track layout alterations

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ntg

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Interesting stuff. I know it won't be operational until 2018 but when do we expect similar plans to be released for the connection of the ECML to Thameslink?
 

Class377/5

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Key Output 2, the third phase of the Thameslink Programme will provide for a train service capability of 24 train paths per hour (tpph) through the Core Area between St Pancras Low Level and Blackfriars station, and also introduces a connection between the Thameslink route and the East Coast Main Line (ECML). The functionality improvements will be delivered in two stages: 20 tpph will become available in January 2018, and 24 tpph will become available in June 2018, allowing an enhanced train service to commence in December 2018.
Wondered when they were going to announce the 20tph prior to KO2 to the public. Wonder what the enhanced service is? Full 32tph into Blackfriars with the final NXEMU's delivered.

Interesting stuff. I know it won't be operational until 2018 but when do we expect similar plans to be released for the connection of the ECML to Thameslink?
2015-ish. Got a month but following informed Sources laws, will refrain from dating it further. Note that it needs to be operational for Hornsey depot to take the new fleet.
 
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Bald Rick

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Wondered when they were going to announce the 20tph prior to KO2 to the public. Wonder what the enhanced service is? Full 32tph into Blackfriars with the final NXEMU's delivered.
.
It means the infrastructure is capable of 24tph from June 2018, but the timetable won't change till the December.

That assumes somebody orders some trains :roll:
 

Class377/5

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Bit more on ATO areas. Where I originally though (roughly).

24 Trains per hour (Automatic Train Operation)

To support the train throughput on the Thameslink lines ATO /ETCS will be operational between London Bridge and the Core Area. This will not be commissioned until required to support the full Key Output 2 train service in 2018.

ATO through the Core Area will be subject to separate consultation but the following points are provided for background information:

 Only trains with ETCS capability will be affected by the system (no other services will be provided with the option to switch into ETCS)

 The Thameslink Programme will not provide the capability, on-train or trackside, for non-Thameslink trains to run using ETCS

 Trains should not be allowed to transition in and then immediately out of ETCS (unless terminating in the ETCS area)

 Drivers have to ‘accept' the transition into or out of ETCS

The following general transition borders (the points where the train picks up and ‘turns on' ETCS, or on leaving the area, disengages and returns to conventional operation) are proposed:

 North of Elephant and Castle for trains entering the Core from the south.

 East of London Bridge

 On the Up Line at Metropolitan Junction

 Immediately south of Dock Junction on the Midland Main Line

 Immediately south of Belle Isle Junction on the East Coast Main Line.

Please note that ATO and subsequent scope of works to deliver 24 tph will be subject to separate consultation under part G of the Network Code and as a consequence will require additional possession access.
It means the infrastructure is capable of 24tph from June 2018, but the timetable won't change till the December.

That assumes somebody orders some trains :roll:
Ah I get you.

Well work is going on with the 700's, hearing bits and bobs slowly.
 
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Tommy3000

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Thanks, that's an informative doc. It's interesting that the siding south of Blackfriars is being turned into a running line - does anyone know what the reasoning is?
 

hwl

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Thanks, that's an informative doc. It's interesting that the siding south of Blackfriars is being turned into a running line - does anyone know what the reasoning is?
So a south bound London Bridge service (and everything behind it too) isn't held up behind a stationary southbound E&C service being held so a North bound service from LBG can cross in front of it. Southbound services would be limited to several less than the planed 24tph through the core otherwise. Not as effective as grade separation but does the job cheaper given there was already the space on the viaduct and most southbound trains on the through lines will go to London Bridge so there shouldn't be too many conflicts overall.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Referring to the doc Edvic linked to, I notice the layout of the lines around Blackfriars shown in the diagram on p22

(a) makes it impossible to reach the Blackfriars terminating platforms from London Bridge
(b) would allow Elephant and Castle trains to reach the terminating platforms without any conflicts at all with through London Bridge services.

I wonder if that means Network Rail are thinking of a pattern of through services to London Bridge and terminating services to Elephant and Castle?

This also means the diagram on p 23 is misleading as it incorrectly appears to show the terminating platforms as reachable from London Bridge.

Separately I'm somewhat minded to suggest the before-and-after diagram of London Bridge station on p 21 is also a little misleading because it doesn't show the current non-stopping through line (or more correctly, shows it in such a light shade of gray that it's very hard to see it's there), thus giving the impression of a bigger increase in the number of through lines than will actually be the case.
 

hwl

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Separately I'm somewhat minded to suggest the before-and-after diagram of London Bridge station on p 21 is also a little misleading because it doesn't show the current non-stopping through line (or more correctly, shows it in such a light shade of gray that it's very hard to see it's there), thus giving the impression of a bigger increase in the number of through lines than will actually be the case.
Using a light shade of grey in this instance helps illustrate the need to politicians funding it how big the benefits are.;)

During the morning peak the charing cross fast services don't call at London Bridge, when in the future the can/will which will be seen a major improvement by many who won't actually use TL services. I'm sure fewer people will get out and Charing Cross in the future with many more changing at London Bridge (to Blackfriars Cannon Street, tube etc.), but I'm still unsure how many will change onto the "extra" Charing cross services from London Bridge though (Maybe some current west bound Jubilee / bus users).
 

cle

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The lines towards Elephant are split into Herne Hill and Denmark Hill pairs.

I think (caveat think) - that all trains via Herne Hill will run into the terminating platforms at Blackfriars. So the Sutton loop mainly - but there is talk of increasing it to 8tph total as a concession to a generally reduced service. Not sure how they'll handle Wimbledon in terms of platforms.

There are also some random trains via Herne Hill and the Kent line, such as to Kent House, Orpington etc... which I bet they'd rather keep through the core, but I think they won't. The ones that can go via Denmark Hill or London Bridge probably will - the ones via Herne Hill, I doubt - as the Sutton loop people would (understandably) kick off.

Denmark Hill is due to have 6tph I think - 2tph Bromley slow, 2tph Sevenoaks slow-ish, and 2tph to somewhere further out, but stopping at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye probably. They'll also have some Victoria to Kent fast services to compensate the SLL connection.

They'll be quite busy I think!
 

swt_passenger

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I wonder if that means Network Rail are thinking of a pattern of through services to London Bridge and terminating services to Elephant and Castle?
Do you mean 'via' Elephant? Over the last 5 years or more, the service pattern has been basically defined in three or four relevant RUSs, (and in the Thameslink TWA Order) like this:

18 tph through the core from London Bridge, of which 14 tph are from the Southern via New Cross Gate, and 4 tph from the Southeastern via New Cross.

6 tph through the core from the Southeastern via Catford, Denmark Hill, and via Elephant & Castle.

8 tph into the Blackfriars bays via Elephant & Castle- basically the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop plus something else yet to be decided.

However, the 4 tph off the SE through London Bridge is now open to question, this was already being discussed in the thread about the Thameslink consultation: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66048
 

MarkyT

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So a south bound London Bridge service (and everything behind it too) isn't held up behind a stationary southbound E&C service being held so a North bound service from LBG can cross in front of it. . .
Think of the middle road as a 'right turn lane' for turning off towards E&C.
 

Tommy3000

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So a south bound London Bridge service (and everything behind it too) isn't held up behind a stationary southbound E&C service being held so a North bound service from LBG can cross in front of it. Southbound services would be limited to several less than the planed 24tph through the core otherwise. Not as effective as grade separation but does the job cheaper given there was already the space on the viaduct and most southbound trains on the through lines will go to London Bridge so there shouldn't be too many conflicts overall.
That makes sense. I see from the diagram that there will be two signals between the crossover to the converted siding and the junction to LBG, so they'll be able to stack two E&C trains in there without delaying LBG trains. I wonder if all southbound LBG trains will run via the converted siding just to keep the current track clear for trains that actually need to use it.

On a related note, I was on a northbound Sutton Loop train today and it went on the westernmost track south of Blackfriars for the first time in ages. The trains had been switching to the Denmark Hill pair immediately north of E&C, but today it switched to the through track at the crossover just outside Blackfriars.
 

Class377/5

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Do you mean 'via' Elephant? Over the last 5 years or more, the service pattern has been basically defined in three or four relevant RUSs, (and in the Thameslink TWA Order) like this:

18 tph through the core from London Bridge, of which 14 tph are from the Southern via New Cross Gate, and 4 tph from the Southeastern via New Cross.

6 tph through the core from the Southeastern via Catford, Denmark Hill, and via Elephant & Castle.

8 tph into the Blackfriars bays via Elephant & Castle- basically the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop plus something else yet to be decided.

However, the 4 tph off the SE through London Bridge is now open to question, this was already being discussed in the thread about the Thameslink consultation: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66048
The recent consultation actually mentions it may be 16tph from London Bridge and 8tph from Elephant into the Core. Also in the same document it states that Thameslink trains going New Cross will lead to a reduction in services to Cannon Street so they are now looking an no Thameslink services via New Cross now.

Wimbledon loop is set to get 4tph in each direction, a total of 8tph into the Core. This could end up being all the bay services.

The 2tph via Denmark Hill is likely to be Sevenoaks 2tph plus 2tph Maidstone East and 2tph Bellingham/Bromley service.

Referring to the doc Edvic linked to, I notice the layout of the lines around Blackfriars shown in the diagram on p22

(a) makes it impossible to reach the Blackfriars terminating platforms from London Bridge
(b) would allow Elephant and Castle trains to reach the terminating platforms without any conflicts at all with through London Bridge services.

I wonder if that means Network Rail are thinking of a pattern of through services to London Bridge and terminating services to Elephant and Castle?

This also means the diagram on p 23 is misleading as it incorrectly appears to show the terminating platforms as reachable from London Bridge.

Separately I'm somewhat minded to suggest the before-and-after diagram of London Bridge station on p 21 is also a little misleading because it doesn't show the current non-stopping through line (or more correctly, shows it in such a light shade of gray that it's very hard to see it's there), thus giving the impression of a bigger increase in the number of through lines than will actually be the case.
It's currently impossible to get from London Bridge to the bays.

Thanks, that's an informative doc. It's interesting that the siding south of Blackfriars is being turned into a running line - does anyone know what the reasoning is?
Partly because it's pointless as the link to Cannon Street will be gone. So it's being used for more through trains. However the middle road can used to reverse trains if needed.
 

N Levers

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I see a 'potential' restriction at London Bridge in the evening peak based on the track diagram on page 25. The current evening peak down trains from charing cross require the use of 2 platforms currently (usually but always one for metro one for mainline). The layout as shown has plats 6 & 7 as the down charring cross but platfotm 6 is also one of the up thameslink line platforms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Partly because it's pointless as the link to Cannon Street will be gone.
Is the Cannon street lnk definately going? I also thought it was but it is still shown on the page 25 plan.
 

John55

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I see a 'potential' restriction at London Bridge in the evening peak based on the track diagram on page 25. The current evening peak down trains from charing cross require the use of 2 platforms currently (usually but always one for metro one for mainline). The layout as shown has plats 6 & 7 as the down charring cross but platfotm 6 is also one of the up thameslink line platforms.
From the diagram Thameslink trains will use 4 & 5 and Charing Cross will use 6,7,8 & 9. Thameslink will only use 6 and 3 for out of course working. Tracks 4 & 5 south & east of London Bridge are the Thameslink lines down to the new flying junction.
 

Class377/5

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Is the Cannon street lnk definately going? I also thought it was but it is still shown on the page 25 plan.
Yes seems it's still there but wont be used used like it is today. Try reversing a unit when crossing 18tph off peak (2tph more than today's peak service) in the middle of a major junction. It simply won't be allowed in normal service.
 

MarkyT

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That makes sense. I see from the diagram that there will be two signals between the crossover to the converted siding and the junction to LBG, so they'll be able to stack two E&C trains in there without delaying LBG trains.
There'll be insufficient standage for 2 trains. The signals are spaced less than a 12-car train length, as can be deduced from the gantry mile and chain dimensions shown on the diagram. Gantries 9 and 10 are 8 chains apart. 22 yds is approx 20 metres, so the signals are 8 x 20 = 160 metres. Confirming on Google Earth, the distance from the south abutment of the river bridge to the junction is approx 370 metres, considerably less than 2 12 car trains + stand-back distances + overlaps.
 

Tommy3000

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Ah, OK. I don't know if they're planning to run any 12 cars through E&C, but even an 8-car 319 is about 160m. Presumably trains aren't allowed to touch bumpers regardless of how good the signalling is.
 

cle

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Also in the same document it states that Thameslink trains going New Cross will lead to a reduction in services to Cannon Street so they are now looking an no Thameslink services via New Cross now.

Wimbledon loop is set to get 4tph in each direction, a total of 8tph into the Core. This could end up being all the bay services.

The 2tph via Denmark Hill is likely to be Sevenoaks 2tph plus 2tph Maidstone East and 2tph Bellingham/Bromley service.
So the Tunbridge Wells/Ashford services might be out then? Or can they still use the fast lines?

I'd struggle to think of more ex-Southern London Bridge services they can take over in the peaks, as they don't want it extending to either Coastway now I believe.
 

Class377/5

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Ah, OK. I don't know if they're planning to run any 12 cars through E&C, but even an 8-car 319 is about 160m. Presumably trains aren't allowed to touch bumpers regardless of how good the signalling is.
Plan is to have 12 cars via Elephant from now until London Bridge is re-opened to Thameslink services.

So the Tunbridge Wells/Ashford services might be out then? Or can they still use the fast lines?

I'd struggle to think of more ex-Southern London Bridge services they can take over in the peaks, as they don't want it extending to either Coastway now I believe.
The consultation stated all Kent services via Herne Hill (think it means longer distances 12 car services).

There'll be insufficient standage for 2 trains. The signals are spaced less than a 12-car train length, as can be deduced from the gantry mile and chain dimensions shown on the diagram. Gantries 9 and 10 are 8 chains apart. 22 yds is approx 20 metres, so the signals are 8 x 20 = 160 metres. Confirming on Google Earth, the distance from the south abutment of the river bridge to the junction is approx 370 metres, considerably less than 2 12 car trains + stand-back distances + overlaps.
The signal sections in the Core proper is about 100m or smaller. Very tiny sections

8 car = 160m
12 cars = 240m
 

mister-sparky

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The consultation stated all Kent services via Herne Hill (think it means longer distances 12 car services).
so the peak Tunbridge Wells and Paddock Wood/Ashford services could stay, but would have to be re-routed via Orpington/Bromley South to Herne Hill? if there was capacity on the Chatham lines.
 

Class377/5

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so the peak Tunbridge Wells and Paddock Wood/Ashford services could stay, but would have to be re-routed via Orpington/Bromley South to Herne Hill? if there was capacity on the Chatham lines.
That's what they've stated. Not sure there is the capacity tho.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Using a light shade of grey in this instance helps illustrate the need to politicians funding it how big the benefits are.;)

During the morning peak the charing cross fast services don't call at London Bridge, when in the future the can/will which will be seen a major improvement by many who won't actually use TL services. I'm sure fewer people will get out and Charing Cross in the future with many more changing at London Bridge (to Blackfriars Cannon Street, tube etc.), but I'm still unsure how many will change onto the "extra" Charing cross services from London Bridge though (Maybe some current west bound Jubilee / bus users).
Fair points. Though I wonder if they'll still have some non-stopping services. Coming out from Charing X, last year not all services called at London Bridge [*], despite all outward lines having platforms - not sure if that's still the case - so I assume there was some other reason why it was thought some non-stopping services were desirable.


[*] I discovered this when an unscheduled trip to Sevenoaks shattered my illusion that if you're at Waterloo East trying to go to London Bridge, then just climbing on the first train is always the thing to do. Lucky there were no ticket inspectors on that train!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you mean 'via' Elephant?
Yes, 'via' would have been a better word than 'to'.
 

cle

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That's what they've stated. Not sure there is the capacity tho.
But they wouldn't be able to stop at Herne Hill itself as it's not 12 car right?

And as I mentioned above, the Sutton loop people would kick off!

I think more likely would be Tunbridge Wells/Ashford trains to run via Catford Loop non-stop from Bromley South to Elephant. Maybe with a random Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye stop - which with the Overground might be quite useful for some.

There aren't any trains from Tunbridge Wells/Tonbridge/Sevenoaks (fast) to Bromley, so it could open up another flow there.
 

Class377/5

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But they wouldn't be able to stop at Herne Hill itself as it's not 12 car right?

And as I mentioned above, the Sutton loop people would kick off!

I think more likely would be Tunbridge Wells/Ashford trains to run via Catford Loop non-stop from Bromley South to Elephant. Maybe with a random Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye stop - which with the Overground might be quite useful for some.

There aren't any trains from Tunbridge Wells/Tonbridge/Sevenoaks (fast) to Bromley, so it could open up another flow there.
Correct, Herne Hill needs rebuilding but becoming one day a major interchange between the Chatham mainline and Thameslink would be a very good thing. Especially 12 cars serving the station. Sutton passengers need those extra trains.

I don't think there is space in peak for any Kent's via Herne Hill, unless the current Ashford and Rochester's are completely removed. As for via Catford, remember the Catford loop will see an increase all day to two stoppers and another fast. It may be tricky to get a additional 2-4 fasts through the area. The proposed Thameslink o Maidstone East is fast from Denmark Hill/Peckham Rye if I remember correctly to Bromley.

I'm not staying it's impossible but does seem more tricky to manage.
 
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