London Bridge - new timetable during reconstruction works commencing 5th January 2015

[Bishopstone]

Probably 2018, they fine tuned the timetable to try and make it work. It still needs more cuts so they are unlikely to return fully. They remain withdrawn in Mondays new new timetable

What happens in 2018, on the Southern side, to create more capacity?

(Genuine question - I've lost track of the various changes)

 

[physics34]

What happens in 2018, on the Southern side, to create more capacity?

(Genuine question - I've lost track of the various changes)

In the peak the Brightons, Littlehamptons, East Grinsteads, Horshams, Caterhams and Tattenham Corners which currently start/terminate at platforms 10-15 will run via "the core" and London Bridge High Level Platforms 4 and 5, which will free space between New Cross Gate (Bricklayers Arms Jct) and London Bridge Terminus Platforms 10-15.

The current track configuration from Bricklayers Arms to London Bridge low level is virtually staying as it is now. A diveunder is being built so that trains in both directions via the core can avoid conflicts with SE lines and the down sussex slow.

 

[Bishopstone]

In the peak the Brightons, Littlehamptons, East Grinsteads, Horshams, Caterhams and Tattenham Corners which currently start/terminate at platforms 10-15 will run via "the core" and London Bridge High Level Platforms 4 and 5, which will free space between New Cross Gate (Bricklayers Arms Jct) and London Bridge Terminus Platforms 10-15.

Thanks. I must admit, I had assumed the new 'core' service would be rather more supplemental than replacement, in respect of existing London Bridge starters.

Will there be route knowledge/unit clearance etc to turn a few Thameslink trains from the south in platforms 10-15, if the core goes into meltdown?

 

[hwl]

Thanks. I must admit, I had assumed the new 'core' service would be rather more supplemental than replacement, in respect of existing London Bridge starters.

Will there be route knowledge/unit clearance etc to turn a few Thameslink trains from the south in platforms 10-15, if the core goes into meltdown?

Those services get replaced by others in the terminating platforms where the aim is 20tph may be slightly more, with more services via south bermondsey.

16tph through p4+5 and the core which includes more than just the transfered services as the frequency goes up to on some routes.

The max during the 6 terminating platforms era was 26tph so there is a gain of 10 tph overall or a gain of 6 tph over the 9 terminating platform era including the 2 car SLL services.

Also many more 12 car services and 12 tph of overground services on the 3 ex southern routes. (14th if the PIXC busters are included).
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Probably 2018, they fine tuned the timetable to try and make it work. It still needs more cuts so they are unlikely to return fully. They remain withdrawn in Mondays new new timetable

Surely things should improve in early 2017 when the new sussex down slow "under" the dive under opens giving an extra track between blue anchor and bricklayers giving many departing trains from the lower numbered platforms a very good chance of a clear run to new cross gate and also reducing the number of trains through south bermondsey junction making it easier to run a more reliable service? ? ?

Probably allowing the south bermondsey terminators to be restored?

 

[otomous]

Firstly for those who tell me that announced apologies are actually welcomed and deemed sincere, I'm grateful. I did think that the passengers would all be giving the speakers daggers when I apologise for the 400th time that day.

Secondly I believe the Tattenhams and Horshams will be going through the core all day, boosting capacity on these routes (esp for East Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Gatwick etc) and freeing up capacity on the terminating platforms, for hopefully, a better frequency via South Bermondsey, Peckham Rye etc. Caterhams, Grinsteads etc are peak only and will go through the core instead of terminating which frees up valuable peak terminating capacity.

Thirdly, as for route knowledge, no-one SEEMS to know exactly who will be doing what in 2018 when the TSGN is one company with a completed network. Unless someone on here knows different...?

 

[Busaholic]

Way back when, doing History 'S' Level, I remember well the question 'Can the end ever justify the means?' and pick two examples to validate your opinion. Wonder what answers people on here would give to that in relation to the London Bridge reconstruction, suspect great divergences of opinion at this comparatively early stage in the process.

 

[Bishopstone]

Way back when, doing History 'S' Level, I remember well the question 'Can the end ever justify the means?' and pick two examples to validate your opinion. Wonder what answers people on here would give to that in relation to the London Bridge reconstruction, suspect great divergences of opinion at this comparatively early stage in the process.

If 24 tph through the core works, with a level of robustness, I suspect the trials and tribulations of 2014-2018 will soon fade from the memory and cynics (like me, to some extent) will slink away.

If, however, the timetable is found to be unworkable and needs to be re-written to 20 tph within weeks of inception, after a chaotic first month of service and knock-on delays all over the Southern/MML/GN.....

More narrowly, London Bridge was a dive, and it's difficult to argue with the contention it needed to be knocked down and started again, which is effectively what is happening.

More narrowly still, when TfL restore the number 17 bus to the station rather than dumping me somewhere just beyond Monument to run the last quarter mile, I shall be more forgiving.

 

[Busaholic]

More narrowly still, when TfL restore the number 17 bus to the station rather than dumping me somewhere just beyond Monument to run the last quarter mile, I shall be more forgiving.

I thought the 17 was at least making it over the bridge to a 'Southwark Cathedral' terminus: is this not so? When I used to do a comparable journey, it was the 18 but went via Southwark Bridge to its London Bridge terminus, on the occasions when buses managed to get through from Sudbury and Wembley (I was travelling from the Euston Road).

 

[physics34]

Firstly for those who tell me that announced apologies are actually welcomed and deemed sincere, I'm grateful. I did think that the passengers would all be giving the speakers daggers when I apologise for the 400th time that day.

Secondly I believe the Tattenhams and Horshams will be going through the core all day, boosting capacity on these routes (esp for East Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Gatwick etc) and freeing up capacity on the terminating platforms, for hopefully, a better frequency via South Bermondsey, Peckham Rye etc. Caterhams, Grinsteads etc are peak only and will go through the core instead of terminating which frees up valuable peak terminating capacity.

Thirdly, as for route knowledge, no-one SEEMS to know exactly who will be doing what in 2018 when the TSGN is one company with a completed network. Unless someone on here knows different...?

nope. Im a southern driver and we havent been told a thing.

 

[hwl]

If 24 tph through the core works, with a level of robustness, I suspect the trials and tribulations of 2014-2018 will soon fade from the memory and cynics (like me, to some extent) will slink away.

If, however, the timetable is found to be unworkable and needs to be re-written to 20 tph within weeks of inception, after a chaotic first month of service ...

The plan is starting at 20 tph through the core then stepping it up to 24 later when things have bedded in to avoid that happening!

 

[Class377/5]

The plan is starting at 20 tph through the core then stepping it up to 24 later when things have bedded in to avoid that happening!

That's the plan. Go from 16tph to 20tph then 24tph allows for a steady increase with an adjustment period.

 

[Antman]

I thought the 17 was at least making it over the bridge to a 'Southwark Cathedral' terminus: is this not so? When I used to do a comparable journey, it was the 18 but went via Southwark Bridge to its London Bridge terminus, on the occasions when buses managed to get through from Sudbury and Wembley (I was travelling from the Euston Road).

Yes the 17 is supposed to be going over the bridge still

 

[Taunton]

Firstly for those who tell me that announced apologies are actually welcomed and deemed sincere

No they are not. What people actually want in the announcements are accurate but succinct statements of where/what the issues are, and statements of what has been changed, what you should do instead, when the next train will be, etc

I don't think anyone really cares for insincere "ABC Railways apologise for any inconvenience caused", just like blandness of "all trains are subject to delay and/or cancellation", which says nothing. The only thing worse is TfL's "There is a good service ... ", tedious at the best of times and infuriating when there patently isn't. I do feel for the poor staff who must be embarrassed as they read out this rubbish.

 

[otomous]

No they are not. What people actually want in the announcements are accurate but succinct statements of where/what the issues are, and statements of what has been changed, what you should do instead, when the next train will be, etc

I don't think anyone really cares for insincere "ABC Railways apologise for any inconvenience caused", just like blandness of "all trains are subject to delay and/or cancellation", which says nothing. The only thing worse is TfL's "There is a good service ... ", tedious at the best of times and infuriating when there patently isn't. I do feel for the poor staff who must be embarrassed as they read out this rubbish.

Ah, well if you had followed the thread, you will have noticed that I'm a driver, and was replying to the suggestion that drivers had been asked not to make announcements any more. I was pointing out that we generally have no information about what the issues are, or what was changed, or what you should do next, or what train to get next. We know only which trains we have been asked to drive and are given changes to the stopping pattern - if we're lucky. Usually all we can tell punters is that we're sat at a red signal. This is obviously a poor state of affairs but there is nothing drivers can do about that. Therefore all we are left with is apologising yet again for delays. I suggested that passengers probably don't welcome that but have been put right by other posters on this forum.

 

[67018]

No they are not. What people actually want in the announcements are accurate but succinct statements of where/what the issues are, and statements of what has been changed, what you should do instead, when the next train will be, etc

Is this a reasonable expectation though? As has been mentioned, the drivers don't have this information. The people that might have it are, at that moment, working their backsides off trying to get problems fixed, reschedule things and generally stop the service stopping completely; not to mention that their crystal balls are probably not perfect so they often don't know when faults will be fixed.

I don't doubt that more could be done on communication, but I suspect even if full information were given people would still complain - quite naturally given the circumstances.

 

[infobleep]

I am generally more tolerant if I know what is going on with a delay. That isn't always possible so if I get a public acknowledgement of a delay, I am happier than silence on the subject.

I have even spoken to guards in the past who knew what a problem was but hadn't said anything publicly.

My favourite train staff are those who communicate, even if it's a we are delayed but not sure why.

Yes some passengers will always complain but the less that do the better in my opinion.

 

[Abpj17]

If you are already on the train, you don't care when the next one is Passengers do like driver announcements if they are either informative and/or humble/sense of humour and sincere/honest. Not all drivers can carry them off. The TOCs might not like it when the drivers are brutally honest about how little information they have been given, but passengers will generally respect the driver saying it.

(This is based on being a long-suffering Thameslink - northern section - passenger and observing the reactions of other passengers and myself to a range of announcements)

 

[Class377/5]

You have to remember that a driver and guard are less informed that the passengers who are getting info directly from a control center where add staff need to reply on it being passed to them. Drivers can't use mobiles are tablets on the move so won't know unless they are inoloved directly. Guards may have passengers to deal with and not have the time to ignore them while they get a phone out and check.

Passengers on the other hand are free to check themselves and find out why, hence they may know more.

 

[Bishopstone]

Well I'm not sure the latest iteration of the timetable represented a great improvement, on day one.

The ECS for my 18.23 rolled in at 18.24, and we were 21 late into Lewes, missing the timetabled branch connection for the eleventh day in eleven, so far this year.

The ex-LBG Dorking train a relative uses was terminated short at Leatherhead, 17 down, having been turned at Epsom on several occasions over the last fortnight.

Oh (and off topic), I am cheesed-off with Coastway 313s without heating. This used to be a rare occurrence, but lately about one journey in three has been in an unheated carriage.

 

[bicbasher]

I used London Bridge during the off-peak today. The 1536 to Caterham was delayed and left at 1557 which went fast to East Croydon, the same time the 1552 to Victoria departed which I boarded although we had priority in getting to New Cross Gate.

 

[southern442]

The Tattenham Corner - Purley shuttles have been cancelled as part of the timetable. Why? They go nowhere near London Bridge.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Tattenham Corner - Purley shuttles have been cancelled as part of the timetable. Why? They go nowhere near London Bridge.

Perhaps they provide extra drivers for something, or less platform occupation at Purley?

They were due to be pulled shortly anyway, I think it was a DfT specified change for the new franchise, either this May or next December.

(Subsequently confirmed the end date in the TSGN ITT was December 2015)

 

[southern442]

Perhaps they provide extra drivers for something, or less platform occupation at Purley?

They were due to be pulled shortly anyway, I think it was a DfT specified change for the new franchise, either this May or next December.

That would make sense. And it's not like they're heavily used anyway.

 

[Bishopstone]

Seriously unamused tonight.

The ECS for the 18.26 to Horsham arrived after the ECS for my 18.23, and we were fully crewed and ready to go, but the 18.26 (which stops at Norwood Junction) was signalled out first.

Another 11 minute late start, and my booked connection missed for twelve days in twelve.

The LBG issues I can understand, but sloppy regulation is just the icing on the cake.

I will finish compiling my log this month, then someone will receive it with a 'please explain' letter.

 

[greatkingrat]

Maybe they thought that by sending the 1826 out first, it could still make PPM, while your train was likely to miss it regardless.

 

[FOH]

Funny how things go, I probably had the best day so far (both morning and evening only around 5 mins late each) and yet on both services the drivers announced apologies!

 

[TimG]

Seriously unamused tonight.

The ECS for the 18.26 to Horsham arrived after the ECS for my 18.23, and we were fully crewed and ready to go, but the 18.26 (which stops at Norwood Junction) was signalled out first.

Another 11 minute late start, and my booked connection missed for twelve days in twelve.

The LBG issues I can understand, but sloppy regulation is just the icing on the cake.

I will finish compiling my log this month, then someone will receive it with a 'please explain' letter.

This connection is tight.. How often did it get missed previously?

 

[Bishopstone]

This connection is tight.. How often did it get missed previously?

On a rolling monthly average, it has been missed 50-60% of the time for several years.

 

[Stats]

Seriously unamused tonight.

The ECS for the 18.26 to Horsham arrived after the ECS for my 18.23, and we were fully crewed and ready to go, but the 18.26 (which stops at Norwood Junction) was signalled out first.

Another 11 minute late start, and my booked connection missed for twelve days in twelve.

The LBG issues I can understand, but sloppy regulation is just the icing on the cake.

According to RTT the Horsham service has 4 min pathing allowance at South Bermondsey Jn, which enabled it to recoup all its time lost on the late departure and be RT from Bricklayers Arms Jn.

 

[TimG]

On a rolling monthly average, it has been missed 50-60% of the time for several years.

Grim. Time to get a moped?