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London Bridge shortlisted for award

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amateur

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I've only used London Bridge a handful of times. Before and during but he rebuild I found it utterly confusing, and coming from the tube I didn't even know how to get to the departure board (if indeed there was one) and found myself trying to work out from the little screens which passageway I needed to use to reach the platform I thought my train went from.
Post rebuild, the confusing passageways are still there, but it's easy to locate the concourse and from there it's a doddle.

New Street, ad unpleasant as it was was at least easy to navigate and logically laid out. Now the concourse is really confusing and I struggle to find my way about, with platform entrances seemingly scattered at random and the departure board not telling you if you need the A or B end.

I used london bridge for the first time yesterday, and I found it very confusing!
 
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Geogregor

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If people find London Bridge "confusing" then I loose hope for humanity...

Yes, it has some issues which I already mentioned (like insufficient toilet provision, lack of some warm place to wait etc.) but "being confusing" is definitely not an issue here. The layout is as dumb-proof as one can imagine. One large concourse with all the platforms directly accessible from it (and logically numbered). How can you make it simpler?
 

Bald Rick

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To be fair, the first time I used Changi Airport I found it (slightly) confusing, and I still struggle with Bank LU!

Some people are just better than others at finding their way around places for the first time. However, I agree that London Bridge is pretty straightforward, and easy to find your way around. There are also plenty of staff around to ask if there are any difficulties.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If people find London Bridge "confusing" then I loose hope for humanity...

Yes, it has some issues which I already mentioned (like insufficient toilet provision, lack of some warm place to wait etc.) but "being confusing" is definitely not an issue here. The layout is as dumb-proof as one can imagine. One large concourse with all the platforms directly accessible from it (and logically numbered). How can you make it simpler?

I kinda agree: I've criticised London Bridge myself quite heavily for the same things you've pointed out. But I've certainly never found it confusing.

But on the other hand, several people on this thread have said that they do find the station confusing. Rather than just dismiss that, it would perhaps be more appropriate to find out why some people find it confusing, to see if anything can be done differently in the future. As pure speculation, I wonder whether the issue is that, although the platforms are numbered logically and all accessible from the same concourse, the layout of the concourse is somewhat irregular? It narrows towards the South, there are gatelines facing in different directions, there isn't really any central location where you can find a single main entrance and departure boards all in the same place: The departure boards are accessible but scattered a bit haphazardly. I'm not particularly trying to criticise here, just wondering whether that could be what's making the layout confusing in the eyes of some people?
 

Clip

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And in my experience, major stations tend to have warm-ish waiting rooms reasonably conveniently placed for the platforms (or at least, for the busiest platforms), as a rule of thumb ;)
it's a commuter station at heart though and it's very rare you would have to be waiting long enough for a service that you would require a waiting room
 

amarshe

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If people find London Bridge "confusing" then I loose hope for humanity...

Yes, it has some issues which I already mentioned (like insufficient toilet provision, lack of some warm place to wait etc.) but "being confusing" is definitely not an issue here. The layout is as dumb-proof as one can imagine. One large concourse with all the platforms directly accessible from it (and logically numbered). How can you make it simpler?

The screens on the SouthEastern / Thameslink side on the lower concourse only show information for those platforms (1-10?) and ditto on the Southern side (platforms 11-15).

For instance if you come off a train to/from Charing Cross and want a Southern service to Forest Hill, you have to do a lot of searching if you don't know the layout.

On the upper concourse the main screens show information for the terminating platforms only (apart from some screens to the left on entering which might not be seen).

I've taken back cabs/private cabs (uber etc.) and they often don't know where to drop off - on the bus station taxi rank or the Tooley Street entrance.

So a stranger can enter from Tooley Street, St Thomas Street or the main entrance and immediately be disorientated.

It's much better for regular users but for irregular users can be confusing.
 
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mmh

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That's fine given the 700s are walk through (and have wide passages) their entire length. The 465 and 375-377 all don't have both, resulting in coach one and two (away from London) all being jammed solid then three to eight are relatively empty.

Long been a problem with commuter trains in the London area. They keep lengthening them, but always put the new carriages on the end rather than the front where they're needed.
 

AlbertBeale

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Re:
Rather than just dismiss that, it would perhaps be more appropriate to find out why some people find it confusing, to see if anything can be done differently in the future. As pure speculation, I wonder whether the issue is that, although the platforms are numbered logically and all accessible from the same concourse, the layout of the concourse is somewhat irregular? It narrows towards the South, there are gatelines facing in different directions, there isn't really any central location where you can find a single main entrance and departure boards all in the same place: The departure boards are accessible but scattered a bit haphazardly. I'm not particularly trying to criticise here, just wondering whether that could be what's making the layout confusing in the eyes of some people?
and:
The screens on the SouthEastern / Thameslink side on the lower concourse only show information for those platforms (1-10?) and ditto on the Southern side (platforms 11-15).
For instance if you come off a train to/from Charing Cross and want a Southern service to Forest Hill, you have to do a lot of searching if you don't know the layout.
On the upper concourse the main screens show information for the terminating platforms only (apart from some screens to the left on entering which might not be seen).
I've taken back cabs/private cabs (uber etc.) and they often don't know where to drop off - on the bus station taxi rank or the Tooley Street entrance.
So a stranger can enter from Tooley Street, St Thomas Street or the main entrance and immediately be disorientated.
It's much better for regular users but for irregular users can be confusing.

Thanks to those of you who've tried to analyse the problems some of us certainly do have with London Bridge, rather than dismissing us as stupid. Yes, things like gatelines in different directions, rather than being able to see all the platforms and/or all the gates in one intelligible line, is disorienting. Similarly, not having one obvious/main access with all departures being displayed there is a problem. It's all very well saying "just follow the instruction", so to speak, but first you need to know where to find the instructions. Not having all departures displayed on one set of indicators, so you know where to start, is - it seems to me - an absolute disaster for anyone not already understanding the layout.

A friend who's most definitely not stupid arrived to use the new London Bridge for the first time, a while back, and said she "didn't know where to start" - it was "all a jumble". She compared her experience of using the revamped Reading station for the first time, which, it seemed to her, was laid out more comprehensibly.
 

Mikey C

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I agree that the lack of a conventional destinations board is an issue, you walk from the Tube station and other than a small TV screen just before the shopping passageway, there's no single screen showing all the services, and even when you reach the main concourse, there's still no conventional board, and instead just a "first train to" type board around the corner.
 
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While it’s not necessarily an excuse a reason to separate out Southern and South Eastern departures is that having everything in one line might mean, especially if all trains to Charing Cross and Cannon Street are individually listed, a train say five minutes away being so far to the right of a board that it’s not actually obvious that it’s leaving soon. London Bridge is a very busy station indeed (I suspect most trains stopping of any UK station) and getting everything right is not going to be easy. Thus there are compromises.
 

hwl

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I agree that the lack of a conventional destinations board is an issue, you walk from the Tube station and other than a small TV screen just before the shopping passageway, there's no single screen showing all the services, and even when you reach the main concourse, there's still no conventional board, and instead just a "first train to" type board around the corner.
While it’s not necessarily an excuse a reason to separate out Southern and South Eastern departures is that having everything in one line might mean, especially if all trains to Charing Cross and Cannon Street are individually listed, a train say five minutes away being so far to the right of a board that it’s not actually obvious that it’s leaving soon. London Bridge is a very busy station indeed (I suspect most trains stopping of any UK station) and getting everything right is not going to be easy. Thus there are compromises.
Part of the problem is that there are 140+ advertised trains per hour departing the station (ECS and arrivals into the terminating platforms too) in the peaks and no station with traditional terminating station type boards handles more than 60 departures (Waterloo in the high 50s departures). LBG is on different scale. Most of the users are regulars and the space is designed around capacity.
The "first train to" boards are quite a neat space efficient solution the problem is that there it oftern displays "-" when the platform isn't yet known, what might be useful is to point people to a waiting area near the expected platform e.g. Area A for P1,2

One obvious change i would suggest is that very large platform numbers (6') are put on Lift shafts to help way finding / orientation along with a large LU roundel at the end of the corridor
 

Ianno87

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Part of the problem is that there are 140+ advertised trains per hour departing the station (ECS and arrivals into the terminating platforms too) in the peaks and no station with traditional terminating station type boards handles more than 60 departures (Waterloo in the high 50s departures). LBG is on different scale. Most of the users are regulars and the space is designed around capacity.
The "first train to" boards are quite a neat space efficient solution the problem is that there it oftern displays "-" when the platform isn't yet known, what might be useful is to point people to a waiting area near the expected platform e.g. Area A for P1,2

One obvious change i would suggest is that very large platform numbers (6') are put on Lift shafts to help way finding / orientation along with a large LU roundel at the end of the corridor

The problem with traditional departure boards is that crowds have a tendency to gather underneath them and block circulation for everybody else.
 

hwl

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The problem with traditional departure boards is that crowds have a tendency to gather underneath them and block circulation for everybody else.
Yep, thankfully there is enough space for that on the up stairs concourse now, not option to do that on lower one where the people need to be distributed (peak throughput is over 100k passengers)
 

swt_passenger

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Interesting point about Cannon St and Charing Cross made earlier. What would be the practical impact of a fixed notice eg:
P8/9 for trains to Waterloo East and Charing Cross
P2/3 for trains to Cannon St
The latter might have to be looked at as P2 is reversible?
 

IceAgeComing

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They also reverse trains at Platform 8 sometimes - got a Woolwich train from there earlier this week after some disruption which I guess was them stopping a Charing Cross train short. Would make sense to do that though; although then you'd need lots of announcements during times of disruption that actually the next train on Platform 8 isn't to Charing Cross but instead to Sidcup or wherever.
 

swt_passenger

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They also reverse trains at Platform 8 sometimes - got a Woolwich train from there earlier this week after some disruption which I guess was them stopping a Charing Cross train short. Would make sense to do that though; although then you'd need lots of announcements during times of disruption that actually the next train on Platform 8 isn't to Charing Cross but instead to Sidcup or wherever.
Yes it would possibly fail in disruption unless the “standard” display for the said platforms was overidden by the display system if a down train suddenly appeared.
 

KingJ

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it's a commuter station at heart though and it's very rare you would have to be waiting long enough for a service that you would require a waiting room

That may be the case for many metro services, but outside the metro there's a significant number of stations that only receive a 30-60 minute interval service from London Bridge (e.g. stations past Tonbridge on the Paddock Wood line, or stations past Tunbridge Wells on the Hastings Line).

As a frequent user, I think the rebuild is positive overall but there have certainly been a few times where i've been waiting for extended periods in below freezing temperatures late at night. In those cases, a waiting room would have been very welcome.
 

Clip

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That may be the case for many metro services, but outside the metro there's a significant number of stations that only receive a 30-60 minute interval service from London Bridge (e.g. stations past Tonbridge on the Paddock Wood line, or stations past Tunbridge Wells on the Hastings Line).

As a frequent user, I think the rebuild is positive overall but there have certainly been a few times where i've been waiting for extended periods in below freezing temperatures late at night. In those cases, a waiting room would have been very welcome.


yes i get that stations further out may have that length between services but do people not time when they finish work or activity so that they can get to a station 10-15 mins beforehand? The only time i get somewhere properly early is for a flight or the E* nowadays - simply no need to be hanging around stations wasting time doing nothing. hell even a pub next door is better than any station
 

KingJ

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yes i get that stations further out may have that length between services but do people not time when they finish work or activity so that they can get to a station 10-15 mins beforehand? The only time i get somewhere properly early is for a flight or the E* nowadays - simply no need to be hanging around stations wasting time doing nothing. hell even a pub next door is better than any station

I do try to time things, but that doesn't always work out when there's significant delays or when going through London Bridge is just one part of your journey (e.g. having travelled in to another London Terminal, and then transferring across to London Bridge to head onwards. Not really much control over when you can get to London Bridge for that).
 

DynamicSpirit

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yes i get that stations further out may have that length between services but do people not time when they finish work or activity so that they can get to a station 10-15 mins beforehand? The only time i get somewhere properly early is for a flight or the E* nowadays - simply no need to be hanging around stations wasting time doing nothing. hell even a pub next door is better than any station

You don't always have that control. For example, I often attend classes in central London that end at fixed times. That rather limits my ability to control exactly when I arrive at London Bridge if I'm due to change trains there. I imagine there are also a fair few commuters who work in customer-facing roles where they have to end their working day at fixed times. Besides, when the temperature does hit around freezing, even 10-15 minutes can become pretty uncomfortable if you are simply standing (or sitting) around waiting.
 

AlbertBeale

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Part of the problem is that there are 140+ advertised trains per hour departing the station (ECS and arrivals into the terminating platforms too) in the peaks and no station with traditional terminating station type boards handles more than 60 departures (Waterloo in the high 50s departures). LBG is on different scale. Most of the users are regulars and the space is designed around capacity.
The "first train to" boards are quite a neat space efficient solution the problem is that there it oftern displays "-" when the platform isn't yet known, what might be useful is to point people to a waiting area near the expected platform e.g. Area A for P1,2

One obvious change i would suggest is that very large platform numbers (6') are put on Lift shafts to help way finding / orientation along with a large LU roundel at the end of the corridor

But if, say, a third of the 140 are inbound to Charing Cross or Cannon Street, then they could be covered by a generic notice like "Platforms X & Y for ...."; and even the northbound Thameslink might be covered by a general "for Blackfriars, ..., St Pancras, and stations north of London, see detailed departure information at .... by access to platforms x, y...[where x. y... are the northbound T/L platforms]". Then a full departure board for all "southbound" or "away from London" services could be given, and clearly labelled as such, without being unmanageably large. (Providing the two lots of generalised information was prominently displayed along those indicators, so you knew you were only getting one half [ie the southbound half] of the info.)

And if this main departure board was set prominently in the main concourse you arrive in when accessing the station - with very very clear signs to "departure information boards" from minor access points - at least, that way, there would be "somewhere to start" when you arrive.
 

Dr Hoo

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One of the big challenges at large stations in the heart of cities is that they can have so many entrances from the community that they exist to serve that the concept of a ‘main entrance’ hardly exists.

Locations such as Edinburgh Waverley, Birmingham New Street, St Pancras and London Bridge demonstrate this very clearly.

Depending on whether you arrive by Underground/tram, taxi, bus, car park or just walk in from the nearest shops, offices or tourist attraction your entrance is effectively the ‘main’ one.

“Why can’t I see the main departure board?”
“Well, that’s your stupid fault for coming by bus/bike/from the hospital/etc.”
 

DynamicSpirit

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One of the big challenges at large stations in the heart of cities is that they can have so many entrances from the community that they exist to serve that the concept of a ‘main entrance’ hardly exists.

Locations such as Edinburgh Waverley, Birmingham New Street, St Pancras and London Bridge demonstrate this very clearly.

Funny you should mention those - because Edinburgh Waverley, Birmingham New Street, and St. Pancras are exactly the three stations that I have got lost in within the past year or so - in all three cases, sufficiently lost to nearly cause either myself or my friend to miss our trains. I regard myself as having a good sense of direction (and have no problems navigating London Bridge), so I would say the design of all three stations needs serious improvement.
 

mmh

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The stations I've found most confusing for platform layouts are probably Bristol Temple Meads and Edinburgh Waverley.

At London Bridge you might not enter and be able to see all the platforms in front of you, but at least they're numerically ascending!

St Pancras, and I know this is a relatively unpopular view, is just passenger unfriendly all round.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I've started a new thread here so we can continue the discussion of other stations besides London Bridge that have poor layout.
 

sarahj

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From a staff POV, the old mess rooms were a dump, and using the staff toilet meant going down dark corridors, passing abandoned rooms with cables hanging down from the roof, and to flush you had to use a knob on the floor and it was still 50/50.
Now a nice clean mess room, nice loos, and for some reason a £1000 miele dishwasher. It's a pity I never go up there anymore.
 

londonbridge

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Update: The winner will be announced next Tuesday. Meanwhile each weekday around 1.50pm on the BBC News Channel they are profiling one of the nominees. Nevill Holt Opera was featured yesterday and The Weston, Yorkshire Sculpture Park today. Not sure which day London Bridge will be featured.
 

TarteTatin

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London Bridge just makes me sad. We suffered a year and a half of no trains to Charing Cross for a cold, ugly, draughty, slow to get around mess.

To be fair there are presumably more trains, and that is excellent for the people who live in places they serve. I use the Thameslink further into London and it's very useful. But when you come in from South London you still end up stuck outside waiting for a platform, just like the bad old days.

What's wrong with the building?

1. No proper, heated waiting area. Yes, trains are delayed a lot and people need a space to wait. It is utterly unacceptable that a station the size of London Bridge doesn't provide what many small, local stations do. See also uncovered platforms.

2. Not replacing the overbridge. It was quick. The escalators down are so long that it takes far longer to change than it used to. It would also relieve some of the pressure downstairs in the morning where too many people are going in too many directions at once.

3. Narrow platforms. In some parts unavoidable, but I don't understand why parts of the escalators aren't covered over to let you get to the other side of the platform. You get awful crushes at the top of the escalators at the lower numbered platform in the morning peak as people change to go further into London and people leave the train.

4. Navigating down to the Tube part. Stop making people walk further. See also Victoria.

5. If you aren't familiar with the station I think it would be very confusing why half the trains don't appear on half of the information boards.

6. Faffy exits at the side from the underpass/main concourse.
 

Terry Tait

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I like the wooden seats in London Bridge, where do they come from? I'd like some for my garden.
 
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