London Bridge to London Victoria valid routes

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by BOBmcbob, 18 Oct 2009.

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  1. BOBmcbob

    BOBmcbob Member

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    Assuming not using underground - I know you can go via denmark hill and also through crystal palce (if on the right train). But both these routes are quite long, wonder if could go to charing cross then walk the 15 mins or so to victoria as this is a shorter direct route?
     
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  3. rick9525

    rick9525 Member

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    Why not just buy a ticket to Charring cross as its cheaper then just walk as you suggested.
     
  4. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    This depends on an interpretation of the routeing guide.

    Trains which run directly, ie. without change of train, between the origin and the destination are always valid. So London Bridge - Victoria via Denmark Hill, or via Crystal Palace, are valid routes on through trains. The permitted route via Crystal Palace provides interesting reduced price season ticket opportunities, if passengers are willing to be restricted to using through London Bridge - Victoria trains only.

    As the OP implies, the shortest route by rail is always valid. For this journey, the shortest route depends on the definition of a station at Waterloo. If Waterloo and Waterloo East are regarded as one station (they are within the same station complex) then shortest route by rail at 7.75 miles is London Bridge - Waterloo East - Waterloo (within same station complex) - Queenstown Road Battersea - Clapham Junction - Battersea Park - Victoria. If Waterloo and Waterloo East are not regarded as one station (they have separate station codes) then shortest route by rail at 8.75 miles is London Bridge - Denmark Hill - Victoria.

    The routeing guide also states
    Therefore London Bridge - Victoria via Denmark Hill is always a permitted route, even on trains which are not direct.

    It is likely that a London Bridge - Victoria ticket is valid to Waterloo East using the shortest route rule. Whether the ticket continues to be valid from Waterloo East to Charing Cross depends on interpretation of the second sentence of the routeing guide rule above. There is a need for interpretation because the rule does not specifically deal with the position where both origin and destination stations are themselves members of the routeing point group. There are 19 members of London Group for routeing purposes. The question is whether, when travelling between two members of the group, one can choose a third member to be the routeing point for the purposes of the second sentence above? My inclination is that the answer is no, because if one can choose a logical station such as Charing Cross, there would be nothing to prevent the choice of an illogical member of the group such as Bethnal Green, where the journey by rail only would be tortuous. But who said the routeing guide was logical? I would be happy to be shown to be wrong.

    John
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I agree that Charing Cross is off route and not valid. However you could argue your case with barrier staff there and common sense and the fact you aren't getting a more expensive journey at a cheaper price would probably see them allow it.
     
  6. paul1609

    paul1609 Established Member

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    Personally I think that the current routing guide rules are incompatible with the zone fares that have been in force on Southern for some time and will be extended throughout Greater London with the advent of PAYG Oyster.

    Take for instance a journey between London Bridge and Kensington Olympia. This is priced as a Zone 1/2 journey however the obvious all raIl route and available according to all the online ticket sellers is by one change at East Croydon. East Croydon is in Zone 4. If you can break your journey there as some on here suggest there is a huge saving on Croydon to London Bridge seasons.
     
  7. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Surprisingly, my calculations show that this is permitted for a London Terminals - Kensington Olympia journey. The routeing points for Kensington Olympia are Clapham Jn, Hayes & Harlington Group, Watford Jn and Willesden Jn. Clapham Jn passes the fares test; Willesden Jn does not pass because there are no fares London Terminals - Willesden Jn; Hayes & Harlington Group and Watford Jn fail.

    Maps for a London Terminals - Clapham Jn journey are LB, LK, PD, SC and WX. LB has not been updated for the opening of St Pancras International, but it permits Kings Cross Thameslink - Blackfriars - (London Bridge or Tulse Hill) - Croydon - Streatham - Clapham Jn.

    The NFM 04 CD states that No restriction applies to the FDR, SDR, FDS and SDS fares London Terminals - Kensington Olympia, while the CDR fare has
    John
     
  8. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    There is a London Euston - Willesden Jn fare:

    SDS £4
    SDR £8
    7DS £17

    The fare from other London Terminals would be either the same for singles and returns (due to interavailable routes for LUL tickets) or the travelcard fare.
     
  9. BOBmcbob

    BOBmcbob Member

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    Sorry to drag this up again, but I got this response from travel watch (after complaining to TFL) about this route/ticket and it not opening the gates.

    I'm no expert but it seems Southern/tfl dont understand their own conditions of carriage... or the penalty fares regulations...



    Dear Mr ,
    Ref: Season ticket

    Further to my letter of 14 June 2010, a reply has now been received from London Overground (LOROL) in response to my representations about your case.
    They apologise for the slight delay in responding but they were waiting for feedback concerning your complaint from Southern.

    LOROL say as the fare for this route is set by Southern they had to confirm with them the validity of the ticket for the journeys you undertake. They have confirmed to them that the ticket is only valid via Denmark Hill and therefore not valid at Sydenham, this is why the ticket will not release the barriers.
    They say that your ticket is what is known as a London Bridge – London Victoria season ticket and is actually only valid at the stations on this loop such as Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye. Your ticket is not valid at Sydenham station and you could be penalty fared in future if you travel to that station using this ticket. This is why your ticket will not open the ticket barriers at Sydenham station.
    If you wish to seek further clarification on this issue you should take the matter up with Southern who set the fare and are responsible for this ticket.
    I hope this information is helpful.
    Yours sincerely



    ***** ****

    info6@londontravelwatch.org.uk
     
  10. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Can you quote the rule regarding direct trains to them, and ask why they are not adhering to it?
     
  11. b0b

    b0b Established Member

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    Didn't we already have this argument about whether break of journey is allowed on direct trains, and the conclusion is that it isn't always valid?
     
  12. transportphoto

    transportphoto Established Member Quizmaster

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  13. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    There is a subtle difference between the two cases though, which is in this case the origin station and the destination station have a common routeing point, the London group, whereas in the Forest Hill-Syon Lane case, there are no common routeing points (Forest Hill has routeing points Croydon, Crystal Palace and London, while Syon Lane has routeing points Hounslow and Barnes). Therefore, in this case, the paragraph:
    "If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a
    route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed
    by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on
    those trains."
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/nrg_detail.pdf page 7

    Now for this journey, London Bridge and London Victoria have a common routeing point, the London group. As they are both members of this routeing point, the London Bridge-Victoria via Sydenham trains are direct trains from either terminal to the London group, the common routeing point. Hence it is permitted to travel on this route so long as the direct trains are used. Therefore, I believe that Southern are wrong to say that this ticket is only valid via Denmark Hill.

    We are now onto a discussion about whether the break of journey at Sydenham is valid. My opinion is that it is as long as the London Bridge-London Victoria trains are used to travel to and from Sydenham as Sydenham is on a permitted route and there are no restrictions on break of journey associated with this ticket.
     
  14. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    Reading the routeing guide....

    ....And given you can break your journey at any point along a valid route (depending on ticket restictions), you can use services that are direct between the origin and destination of the ticket and break your journey at any point along the way, without even consulting the Routeing Guide.
     
  15. londonbridge

    londonbridge Member

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    East Croydon is in zone 5
     
  16. b0b

    b0b Established Member

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    That runs counter to the conclusion in the other thread, where you may not break a journey on a direct train, unless the direct train is valid by the shortest route rule...
     
  17. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I'm not sure I agree with that. Can you quote the link to the relevant thread, please?
     
  18. b0b

    b0b Established Member

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  19. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Bob, your linked post relies on the interpretation of condition 13 by one person at ATOC. What condition 13 states is:
    "(f) For the purposes of this Condition, a “through train” is one which may be
    used by a passenger to make their entire journey without changing trains."
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

    Now this person at ATOC has interpreted this as meaning that passengers travelling on a through train must travel from the origin to the destination on that through train without break of journey.
    However, I, and I believe other posters on here interpret this as meaning that you may break your journey on route, so long as both trains which you travel on a through trains on which you may make the journey without changing trains. For me, the use of the word 'may' is key, as this implies that it is not neccessary to travel on the train for the whole journey, only for it to be possible.

    Of course, to get an official legal definition, this would have to go to court which I think unlikely.
     
  20. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Is a single ticket (season or otherwise) from Clapham Junction to Wandsworth Town valid via Strawberry Hill, just because there are direct trains via that route?

    I have no doubt that there is a clause somewhere which will prevent people using such a ticket to get to Richmond or Kingston alleging a "break of journey", despite what has been quoted in earlier posts.

    Does this rule definitely apply if the origin and destination are both part of the same routing point?
     
    Last edited: 20 Jul 2010
  21. BOBmcbob

    BOBmcbob Member

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    Finally got a response from Southern...from this they even don't understand their own terms of contract.



    Thank you for your Emaiil. i have spoken to our ticketing Manager and he has confirmed to me that your ticket is not valid at Sydenham station.

    He has checked the National Routing guide map section and Map LL clearly shows that Sydenham is not allowed on the season ticket you hold.

    You would need to purchase a Sydenham to London Terminals season ticket to allow you to ouse the barriers at the station.


    Regards

    Southern Customer Services
     
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    No. The route only becomes permitted when a direct train is taken. (That doesn't necessarily mean you must remain on that train)
    It is a difficult one, because they could argue that BOJ isn't permitted, which I don't think they can justify, but they could argue that the timetable does not show them to be direct trains (in reality, it depends on where you view the timetable...) and that may be harder to argue against depending on the particular circumstances and what timetables are available and what they show.
     
  23. b0b

    b0b Established Member

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    I'd have to go with the National Rail Timetable, since that is used to calculate the shortest route (even though that's missing right now) :lol:

    It doesn't show that loop as a looped train from what I remember
     
  24. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    On occasions that I've been at London Bridge I can tell you that the services to Victoria via Crystal Palace are always announced just like that, ie going all the way to Victoria. Contrast that with the rounder services from Cannon Street to Cannon Street which gradually extend round the loop as you get further on.
     
  25. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    I asked a friend of mine (who is a RPI manager) about this.

    His reply was (he would not reply on the spot and told me his answer 3 days later after conferring with colleagues)
    .
    The quote uses the phrase "A through train" - this means a through train, not 2 or more through trains.

    Again this states "A through Train" not 2 or more through trains.

    From the above two quotes he says that you can use any through train - but you must not break your journey (unless it is on a mapped permitted route) as this breaks the terms of conditions of using through trains

    Peter
     
    Last edited: 4 Sep 2010
  26. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    This is a chicken and egg situation isn't it?

    Surely the ticket either allows break of journey or not? They can't really be saying that you can break your journey on some valid routes and not others? And "mapped permitted route" must surely be a red herring as you aren't using the routeing guide if you are travelling on through trains between stations with a common routeing point?
     
  27. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    A break of Journey is only allowed on a permitted route.
    A through train does not neccessarily make the route along which it travels a permitted route. (see routeing guide instructions)

    The RPI is saying that if you break your journey, whilst travelling on a through train (on a route that is not mapped), you are no longer on a permitted route as the "permission to travel" that route is only for a through train and once you leave that train (before the destination on your ticket) your ticket is not valid (on a non-mapped route).
    .

    Peter
     
  28. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    This is the first paragraph of the instructions for the routeing guide:
    This paragraph does not mention break of journey at all - it is simply deciding what is a permitted route. It clearly states that a route is permitted if it is being used by a through train. My reading is that if you are travelling on trains which make the whole journey from London Bridge to London Victoria then they are using a permitted route. If the ticket you posess allows break of journey then you should be able to do so providing you always travel on trains that are making the whole journey.

    But that doesn't make sense. The guide says it's a permitted route if the train is a through train. It can't cease to be permitted just because you get off. Whether or not a break of journey is allowed is down to the ticket, not the route.
     
  29. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    What about this line
    " This route may not be a permitted route if a change of train is necessary to complete the journey".

    The RPI's position is that the journey is valid by "A through Train" between the stations shown on your ticket (not 2 or more through trains or to intermediate stations).
    A break of journey is not allowed by the above (A through train between the stations on your ticket)
    By breaking the journey you have to change trains to complete the journey and therefore unless it is also a mapped route it is no longer a permitted route and therefore your ticket is invalid

    But a break of journey is only allowed when the ticket is valid. As this is not a mapped route it is only valid on a through train between the stations shown on the ticket (sec 13 NRCOC).

    Peter
     
  30. hairyhandedfool

    hairyhandedfool Established Member

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    It means if you have a ticket from A to B and there is a train going from A to B via C it is a valid route, but if you took a train from A to C and changed there for another from C to B, it might not be a valid route.

    So any train that goes from A to B via C is a train for which your ticket is valid because it is a through train.

    Provided the train you use stops at the origin and destination of your ticket it is a through train and it uses a permitted route. Every ticket which allows BoJ, allows it on all permitted routes.
     
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