London bus penalty fare

[SpiddlyDonk]

Hi all,

I recently received a penalty notice for not paying the fee of a London bus fare. I had just got off the Northern line and onto the bus at Mordon. I had absolutely no concern when I saw the ticket officer given I was very confident that I did pay - I could easily have hopped off the bus earlier if needed to avoid them.

The encounter with the ticket officer was fine, aside from feeling very uncomfortable having to say aloud my full name and full address in a very full bus where people were clearly watching.

I'm incredibly frustrated (unsurprisingly) as I never attempt or intend to skip a fare, it's just part of life to pay for travel. I had already paid £10.95 in travel fees that day for my commute - I believe the bus fare would've still been within my maximum fare cap, but still - pretty pointless to try and get that freebie given how much I'd already paid! I had also just gotten off a particularly horrible underground journey - I suspect it took twice the length of my usual journey possibly due to the extreme heat - the train was constantly stopping/starting (no delays flagged when I boarded). I was feeling quite rough by the end of it and was desperate to get home. I reference this only because the rubbish journey quality frustrated me more, and on the off chance it made me miss not tapping in (but I genuinely don't think this is the case).

As usual, I tapped in at the front of the bus and saw no red light or double beep (and nor did the driver flag me in anyway).

I'd like to dispute the fare, but not sure I have any case that they'd remotely pay attention to "I'm sure I did and it just didn't flag correctly that there was an issue". Would appreciate any thoughts on if it's worth while disputing and how best to frame it if so! Please shout if any more information would be useful.

 

[Titfield]

Was this paying by oyster? Do you have an oyster account you can check to see if the tap in was recorded?

 

[lb001]

unfortunately even if it *would* have been within the cap, if you didn’t touch in it is treated as having no ticket, though the fact if you had you touched in it would have been nil fare.

i’ve never seen or heard an appeal of this type be successful with similar circumstances (similar on tube where cap has been reached, so no lost revenue, but no tap in, thereby a bylaw offence and either a pf/report) but it’s worth the appeal all the same.

it’s worth checking oysters/contactless history, but i will say, if the inspector has got on the bus after you and done ‘a download’ then if it’s not on the download, the touch simply hasn’t registered. each download is only as good as one stop though because the rid (revenue inspection device) then would not know who had tapped in after that download.

 

[island]

For an appeal to be successful, you'll have to submit verifiable evidence that you touched in. Have you checked your travel a
record on the TfL website?

 

[Hadders]

If you did successfully touch-in then you will see this in your account. If you used contactless you don't need an account to view 7-days worth of journey history. If you used Oyster then you do need an account, although I think you can obtain recent journey history without an account from a London Underground ticket machine.

If you can evidence that the fare was paid then an appeal should be successful.

 

[SpiddlyDonk]

Thanks for the inputs, I have double checked and it seems the tap was unsuccessful - so from the sounds of it there will be no luck with the appeal...

 

[furlong]

Do the records show you within the daily cap? You can still appeal on that basis i.e. no financial loss. Plus you could ask for CCTV from the bus and records from the ticket machine at the time this will show you tapped to determine what happened at the moment you touched. Is it possible you had multiple cards and the machine could have registered the wrong one?

 

[SpiddlyDonk]

Do the records show you within the daily cap? You can still appeal on that basis i.e. no financial loss. Plus you could ask for CCTV from the bus and records from the ticket machine at the time this will show you tapped to determine what happened at the moment you touched. Is it possible you had multiple cards and the machine could have registered the wrong one?

Yes - my daily cap is £12.80 and my total for the day was £10.95 (so even if the bus did successfully tap I'd have been within that still juust about). I do have multiple cards but can't see any charge on my other card either. I may ask about the CCTV given I'm genuinely quite baffled about this one! Do you think they'd kick up a fuss if I request CCTV and it turns out it genuinely did flag as unpaid?

 

[Watershed]

Yes - my daily cap is £12.80 and my total for the day was £10.95 (so even if the bus did successfully tap I'd have been within that still juust about). I do have multiple cards but can't see any charge on my other card either. I may ask about the CCTV given I'm genuinely quite baffled about this one! Do you think they'd kick up a fuss if I request CCTV and it turns out it genuinely did flag as unpaid?

Requesting CCTV is separate from your actual Penalty Fare. It's your legal right to do so and they can't kick up a fuss over it.

Still, I doubt it will particularly help in this instance as it is unlikely to have sufficient resolution (or visibility) to show whether the green light illuminated when touching in. That is the only true indication that your touch has been recognised and that the card has been accepted.

 

[SpiddlyDonk]

Ah thank you for expanding on that. So I would need to request that entirely separately from disputing the penalty? Given I imagine it will take some time to come through, perhaps it is best for me to dispute or pay in the parallel.

 

[Haywain]

Yes - my daily cap is £12.80 and my total for the day was £10.95

That is of no help then as it shows a clear benefit to you by not touching in.

 

[SpiddlyDonk]

To me it's completely pointless to try and get a freebie given how much I had already paid (and not tried to dodge - would've been more valuable to have tried to evade a tube fare) but to them I agree it is irrelevant!

 

[WesternLancer]

Ah thank you for expanding on that. So I would need to request that entirely separately from disputing the penalty? Given I imagine it will take some time to come through, perhaps it is best for me to dispute or pay in the parallel.

IIRC you Neto request cctv quickly before it’s wiped. TfL will have an access system.

Probably do the initial appeal at the same time although you can check and keep an eye on deadlines. Do not miss the deadlines.

Or you can pay the penalty and appeal. If upheld you’d be refunded.

Assuming this is like the railway Penalty Fares. If not hopefully someone can correct me.

 

[SpiddlyDonk]

Thanks - I have requested the CCTV footage an submitted my appeal. I've read up and provided I am in the appeal process, nothing to pay until it has concluded.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks - I have requested the CCTV footage a submitted my appeal. I've read up and provided I am in the appeal process, nothing to pay until it has concluded.

Be aware though, the penalty fare is time bound, not “evidence bound”. They have a month to respond to your Subject Access Request, but you have 21 days (plus any time the assessor has spent deciding any stage) to pay at the reduced rate.