London buses disconnection

[Busaholic]

As someone who has been interested in London bus services these past sixty years, I have often wondered why two particular places have been joined together by one bus service when other, seemingly more obvious places, have rarely or never had a direct connection.

As an example of two towns joined by a service which, perhaps, very few people other than enthusiasts would travel the full length of, I cite Woolwich and Croydon, which for decades were joined by not one route, but two, namely the 54 and 75, splitting after Blackheath Village and only briefly intersecting again at Catford. Now it is impossible to do the journey in one go, the 75 going to Lewisham rather than Woolwich and the 54 forced to terminate at Elmers End to avoid duplication with Tramlink (an immature decision IMO). Woolwich and the much-nearer Bromley, on the other hand, were only briefly connected in DMS days with a 126 extension from Eltham to Woolwich which didn't last long.

A thread about train journeys got me thinking that, for instance, I have never known a direct bus connection between Finsbury Park and London Bridge: nor is there a direct tube or train service, which does of course account for some of these omissions.

Any other examples you can think of? Waterloo and Kings Cross /St Pancras were unconnected for a few years, but there is now a bus link again.

 

[Mojo]

I've wondered why there's no frequent direct bus between Highgate and Hampstead. There is the 603 but it only runs Mon to Fri 4 times in each direction, otherwise you have to get a 210 to Jack Straws Castle and then either change or walk.

In the similar area I wonder how Highgate ended up with two routes to Moorgate; both of which are 24 Hr and take different routes; there's also the 43 which goes to Moorgate as well, stopping a 5 Min walk from the other two routes in Highgate, and also running 24 Hr.

 

[317 forever]

London Bridge to Oxford Circus (many moons ago connected by route 13)
Archway to Wood Green
Angel to Trafalgar Square (connected by route 172 in the 80s)
Streatham to Putney
Elephant & Castle to Lewisham (connected by route 1 or 199 until 1999)
Enfield to Walthamstow
Ealing to Harrow
Marble Arch to Clapham Junction
Wimbledon to Hammersmith
Aldgate to Waterloo (covered by route 5 in the 80s)

 

[Abpj17]

For highgate and hampstead, the heath rather gets in the way And the only main road to the north goes past the spaniards inn which isn't very bus friendly so I suspect there is some natural constraint on how many buses per hour can realistically use that road without winding up cars

http://cdn2.vtourist.com/4/6095048-Bus_passes_the_Spaniards_Inn_Hampstead.jpg?version=2

 

[Mojo]

For highgate and hampstead, the heath rather gets in the way And the only main road to the north goes past the spaniards inn which isn't very bus friendly

http://cdn2.vtourist.com/4/6095048-Bus_passes_the_Spaniards_Inn_Hampstead.jpg?version=2

The frequent 210 between Finsbury Park and Brent + (as well as the 603) passes the Spaniards Inn, as your picture illustrates. There's nothing at all "bus unfriendly" about this road, and nor does the Heath get in the way!

 

[hassaanhc]

London Bridge to Oxford Circus (many moons ago connected by route 13)
Archway to Wood Green
Angel to Trafalgar Square (connected by route 172 in the 80s)
Streatham to Putney
Elephant & Castle to Lewisham (connected by route 1 or 199 until 1999)
Enfield to Walthamstow
Ealing to Harrow
Marble Arch to Clapham Junction
Wimbledon to Hammersmith
Aldgate to Waterloo (covered by route 5 in the 80s)

Elephant and Lewisham have once again been connected, after the 136 was extended from Peckham to Elephant in June 2014.
Aldgate to Waterloo being missing has previously annoyed me :P

Also:
Richmond to Shepherd's Bush
London Bridge to Victoria

 

[317 forever]

Elephant and Lewisham have once again been connected, after the 136 was extended from Peckham to Elephant in June 2014.
Aldgate to Waterloo being missing has previously annoyed me :P

Also:
Richmond to Shepherd's Bush
London Bridge to Victoria

Sorry I forgot about the 136 extension!

London Bridge and Victoria used to be connected by route 10 until 1988, replaced by route 510 until around 1991.

 

[Be3G]

Enfield to Walthamstow

If such a bus service were to exist I'd have used it quite a few times by now. There is in general a distinct lack of buses that cross the Lee Valley, and the ones that do are rather unreliable (I need to send TfL a complaint about the 313, thanks for reminding me) which results in Enfield being kept frustratingly separate from Waltham Forest despite the fact they're neighbouring boroughs.

 

[PeterC]

There is in general a distinct lack of buses that cross the Lee Valley, and the ones that do are rather unreliable (I need to send TfL a complaint about the 313, thanks for reminding me) which results in Enfield being kept frustratingly separate from Waltham Forest despite the fact they're neighbouring boroughs.

The limited number of crossings makes driving just as unreliable.

The difficulty for a public transport operator is in discovering which routes have supressed demand and which are just outside the passengers' mental maps. I know from running gigs that there are destinations that will attract people for 15 miles in one direction but not from 5 in the other.

 

[Busaholic]

Some interesting suggestions, including some place like Lea Valley which I am pretty hazy on. Just some quick off-the-top-of-my-head comments:-

Lewisham to Elephant, now with the 136, which I read is to get a slight REDUCTION in service shortly, which I can't fathom. Why the 453 can't be officially extended via the 47 from Deptford to Lewisham, even if only to the point just north of the station which used to see all those out-of-service bendies beats me;

London Bridge to Victoria also used to have,post-tram, the more direct 70 via Waterloo. With the ending of the South London Line perhaps one day the C10 could be extended from Elephant post London Bridge Station redvelopment;

Archway to Wood Green is , I feel, unnecessary considering the long-running and extremely frequent 41 from Turnpike Lane to Archway.

Will look at the list in more detail later and got a couple to add, one very surprising indeed I would think.

 

[Hophead]

Lewisham to Elephant, now with the 136, which I read is to get a slight REDUCTION in service shortly, which I can't fathom.

Nothing on London Bus Routes about that. But, looking more closely at this route, I find that it has no fewer than 6 (six!) weekday timetable variants. These being Monday, Tuesday - Thursday, & Friday, with SD & NSD options for each.

 

[317 forever]

Some interesting suggestions, including some place like Lea Valley which I am pretty hazy on. Just some quick off-the-top-of-my-head comments:-

Lewisham to Elephant, now with the 136, which I read is to get a slight REDUCTION in service shortly, which I can't fathom. Why the 453 can't be officially extended via the 47 from Deptford to Lewisham, even if only to the point just north of the station which used to see all those out-of-service bendies beats me;

London Bridge to Victoria also used to have,post-tram, the more direct 70 via Waterloo. With the ending of the South London Line perhaps one day the C10 could be extended from Elephant post London Bridge Station redvelopment;

Archway to Wood Green is , I feel, unnecessary considering the long-running and extremely frequent 41 from Turnpike Lane to Archway.

Will look at the list in more detail later and got a couple to add, one very surprising indeed I would think.

The C10 has already been extended from Elephant & Castle to Canary Wharf. So, maybe it could be diverted to London Bridge and route 225 extended from Canary Wharf to Elephant & Castle via current route C10. Both routes use 10.1 or 10.2m buses so should be suitable.

 

[Busaholic]

The C10 has already been extended from Elephant & Castle to Canary Wharf. So, maybe it could be diverted to London Bridge and route 225 extended from Canary Wharf to Elephant & Castle via current route C10. Both routes use 10.1 or 10.2m buses so should be suitable.

Thanks for the correction. I must kearn to check my facts and not try to keep them all in my head

 

[hassaanhc]

The C10 has already been extended from Elephant & Castle to Canary Wharf. So, maybe it could be diverted to London Bridge and route 225 extended from Canary Wharf to Elephant & Castle via current route C10. Both routes use 10.1 or 10.2m buses so should be suitable.

Thanks for the correction. I must kearn to check my facts and not try to keep them all in my head

CANADA WATER not Canary Wharf

Speaking of Canary Wharf, should be a link between that and Canning Town. Best option would probably be the D7 extended from All Saints.

 

[Busaholic]

CANADA WATER not Canary Wharf

Speaking of Canary Wharf, should be a link between that and Canning Town. Best option would probably be the D7 extended from All Saints.

Look, it's hard enough for a gnarled old S.E. Londoner like me, living in exile, to accept that those tube things have invaded our sacred space, but I did kind of know it wasn't called Canary Wharf- isn't that a novel by John Steinbeck?

Seriously, Canary Wharf to Canning Town seems a no-brainer. And why does the 15 not extend from Blackwall Tunnel to Canning Town? There seem to be a serious lack of buses these days between those two points even when the timetabled service is working as it should.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've wondered why there's no frequent direct bus between Highgate and Hampstead. There is the 603 but it only runs Mon to Fri 4 times in each direction, otherwise you have to get a 210 to Jack Straws Castle and then either change or walk.

It's probably because Golders Green and Brent Cross are much bigger traffic generators, although I do wonder if the roads down in Hampstead village have something to do with it. Both the 46 (E200) and the 268 (Cadet) only use short single-deckers, although I know the 603 and N5 use double-deckers.

A direct bus would have made the trips to the Duke of Hamilton a bit easier though

Archway to Wood Green

There's the 41 to Turnpike Lane, which is close enough.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I do wonder if the roads down in Hampstead village have something to do with it. Both the 46 (E200) and the 268 (Cadet) only use short single-deckers, although I know the 603 and N5 use double-deckers.

A direct bus would have made the trips to the Duke of Hamilton a bit easier though



.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for double deckers and volume of vehicles when rail replacement services are running.
The Dark Star Hophead at the Duke is worth the two bus trek though.

 

[Busaholic]

Doesn't seem to be a problem for double deckers and volume of vehicles when rail replacement services are running.
The Dark Star Hophead at the Duke is worth the two bus trek though.

The first bus route ever through Hampstead proper was the 268, operated by 36 feet long AEC Merlins. It was introduced in September 1968 on the same day as the opening of Walthamstow Central Bus Station and the reshaping of virtually all the routes in the surrounding area consequent upon the opening of the Victoria Line, also the radical shake-up of bus routes around Turnpike Lane with the creation of six flat-fare omo routes, so a huge, possibly unprecedented, day in LT bus history. With so much else to see and travel on I waited for the first Monday to travel on the 268 and I had the bus all to myself all the way from Golders Green to Finchley Road. The route soon proved itself though, not least on sunny weekends at Jack Straw's when the RFs on the 210 were zooming past full down to Golders. The C11 a few years later was even more of an instant success, the minibuses on it not up to the task almost from the word go.

The letters page of the 'Ham and High' did have some negative comments about the buses, no doubt some of them from people who would have described themselves as 'progressive socialists', usually among the most snobbish IMO.

 

[Antman]

As someone who has been interested in London bus services these past sixty years, I have often wondered why two particular places have been joined together by one bus service when other, seemingly more obvious places, have rarely or never had a direct connection.

As an example of two towns joined by a service which, perhaps, very few people other than enthusiasts would travel the full length of, I cite Woolwich and Croydon, which for decades were joined by not one route, but two, namely the 54 and 75, splitting after Blackheath Village and only briefly intersecting again at Catford. Now it is impossible to do the journey in one go, the 75 going to Lewisham rather than Woolwich and the 54 forced to terminate at Elmers End to avoid duplication with Tramlink (an immature decision IMO). Woolwich and the much-nearer Bromley, on the other hand, were only briefly connected in DMS days with a 126 extension from Eltham to Woolwich which didn't last long.

A thread about train journeys got me thinking that, for instance, I have never known a direct bus connection between Finsbury Park and London Bridge: nor is there a direct tube or train service, which does of course account for some of these omissions.

Any other examples you can think of? Waterloo and Kings Cross /St Pancras were unconnected for a few years, but there is now a bus link again.

The 161 and 269 have also linked Bromley and Woolwich, cutting the 54 back to Elmers End when Tramlink opened was just ridiculous.

As for Lewisham to Elephant & Castle the 136 is somewhat indirect, I've often thought the 21 and 453 should swap southern termini

 

[LateThanNever]

The first bus route ever through Hampstead proper was the 268, operated by 36 feet long AEC Merlins. It was introduced in September 1968 on the same day as the opening of Walthamstow Central Bus Station and the reshaping of virtually all the routes in the surrounding area consequent upon the opening of the Victoria Line, also the radical shake-up of bus routes around Turnpike Lane with the creation of six flat-fare omo routes, so a huge, possibly unprecedented, day in LT bus history. With so much else to see and travel on I waited for the first Monday to travel on the 268 and I had the bus all to myself all the way from Golders Green to Finchley Road. The route soon proved itself though, not least on sunny weekends at Jack Straw's when the RFs on the 210 were zooming past full down to Golders. The C11 a few years later was even more of an instant success, the minibuses on it not up to the task almost from the word go.

The letters page of the 'Ham and High' did have some negative comments about the buses, no doubt some of them from people who would have described themselves as 'progressive socialists', usually among the most snobbish IMO.

Agree with that broadly, but not all progressive socialists were against, a certain Michael Foot was a regular on the 24. How many high office politicians are now seen on a bus?

 

[Busaholic]

Agree with that broadly, but not all progressive socialists were against, a certain Michael Foot was a regular on the 24. How many high office politicians are now seen on a bus?

IMO Michael Foot was a true socialist, one who never accepted the trappings of power or any sort of honour, although he was ,of course, never a poor man. Inevitably, he did not make a good leader and the compromises he had to make must have made him unhappy but he was respected by all who knew him with the exception of some on the far left and far right and one or two other 'phonies' whom he saw through, and they knew it. Discarded peerage anyone?