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London Buses Discussion

Mikey C

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I think there's only about 10-20 buses left with the old Go-Ahead livery, nearly all of them 2010 WVLs and Es which missed out on the refurbishment process. From an enthusiast side, I do wish this rule was relaxed, Stagecoach and Metroline's London liveries brightened the place up no end in the 2000s. From an engineering and financial side, just one colour certainly makes the books look a lot happier!

I'm not sure if this was a plan or just hearsay, but I swear there was a rumour TFL were going to insist on a standard moquette and interior for buses a few years ago, which is why CT Plus and Sullivan Buses use gold handrails and a red/grey moquette with roundels in them. Clearly this edict never came into force, given the Big 5 (and Tower Transit :) ) are all still specifying their own interiors.
Metroline (my local company) I'm pretty sure actively removed their blue skirts, rather than waiting for buses to be repainted. I too liked a little bit of colour added to signify the operator and provide a bit of visual variety. London buses, with their all over red, have become like Wimbledon tennis, with its all over white rule, but that never used to be the case either - the shirts worn by McEnroe, Becker, Edberg, Graf etc weren't 100% white as back then a touch of colour contrast was allowed!

I vaguely remember that talk about a standard moquette, the Borismaster moquette. The first E400City buses had this moquette
 
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cnjb8

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Metroline (my local company) I'm pretty sure actively removed their blue skirts, rather than waiting for buses to be repainted. I too liked a little bit of colour added to signify the operator and provide a bit of visual variety. London buses, with their all over red, have become like Wimbledon tennis, with its all over white rule, but that never used to be the case either - the shirts worn by McEnroe, Becker, Edberg, Graf etc weren't 100% white as back then a touch of colour contrast was allowed!

I vaguely remember that talk about a standard moquette, the Borismaster moquette. The first E400City buses had this moquette
ADL were really keen for the City to be a competitor to the New Routemaster
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The 80% rule came about as the various tourist bodies were concerned that the iconic London red bus would be lost under Stagecoach stripes, etc once the sale of London Buses Ltd bus firms came about, as it had already seen Kentish Bus, Thamesway and Grey Green liveries on LRT services. Hence, it was decreed that services in zone 1 would be 80% red and from 1997, even those that had been allowed to continue with non-red were then moved to the 80% rule.

That continued until 2011-ish when the all-red was decreed. Odd as even in some places like Copenhagen, there is allowed to be some colour on the otherwise yellow livery though that is for route branding purposes, IIRC
 

londonteacher

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The 80% rule came about as the various tourist bodies were concerned that the iconic London red bus would be lost under Stagecoach stripes, etc once the sale of London Buses Ltd bus firms came about, as it had already seen Kentish Bus, Thamesway and Grey Green liveries on LRT services. Hence, it was decreed that services in zone 1 would be 80% red and from 1997, even those that had been allowed to continue with non-red were then moved to the 80% rule.

That continued until 2011-ish when the all-red was decreed. Odd as even in some places like Copenhagen, there is allowed to be some colour on the otherwise yellow livery though that is for route branding purposes, IIRC
And really to be honest having a fleet that looks similar externally helps operators help each other. Look at Tower Transit (not 100%) helping Stagecoach whilst they await delivery and introduction into service of their electric buses as seen #874.

With the boris buses it also allows, I think I am right in saying, them to be transferred between operators based on contracts.
 

Snow1964

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And really to be honest having a fleet that looks similar externally helps operators help each other. Look at Tower Transit (not 100%) helping Stagecoach whilst they await delivery and introduction into service of their electric buses as seen #874.

With the boris buses it also allows, I think I am right in saying, them to be transferred between operators based on contracts.

However it does sometimes go wrong with Boris buses because a number now carry all over advertising instead of red. When two batches went to RATP for 111, one had adverts, was seen at Heathrow, worked one day, and following day was recalled and a red one sent instead (even though it broke a numeric batch)

The all over adverts make a mockery of the policy, but presumably money talks, so something like 100-150 buses in London have it.
 

Busaholic

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The all over adverts make a mockery of the policy, but presumably money talks, so something like 100-150 buses in London have it.
I did my popularity no favours when I was a trainee at 55 and Grosvenor Place by expressing my opposition to all-over ads.
 

Mikey C

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The 80% rule came about as the various tourist bodies were concerned that the iconic London red bus would be lost under Stagecoach stripes, etc once the sale of London Buses Ltd bus firms came about, as it had already seen Kentish Bus, Thamesway and Grey Green liveries on LRT services. Hence, it was decreed that services in zone 1 would be 80% red and from 1997, even those that had been allowed to continue with non-red were then moved to the 80% rule.

That continued until 2011-ish when the all-red was decreed. Odd as even in some places like Copenhagen, there is allowed to be some colour on the otherwise yellow livery though that is for route branding purposes, IIRC
The vast majority of people in London want buses to be red, but not necessarily 100% red

After all the Routemasters were never totally red, as they had the cant rail in either gold or white. Many newer double deckers in the 70s had some white around the upper windows, the Leaside district introduced their own livery with the black skirt and white stripe in the middle, while London Buses before being split up and privatised had a livery with a grey skirt and white stripe in the middle.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The vast majority of people in London want buses to be red, but not necessarily 100% red

After all the Routemasters were never totally red, as they had the cant rail in either gold or white. Many newer double deckers in the 70s had some white around the upper windows, the Leaside district introduced their own livery with the black skirt and white stripe in the middle, while London Buses before being split up and privatised had a livery with a grey skirt and white stripe in the middle.
I think most people think a London bus must be red but are probably ambivalent on whether it's 80% or 100%.
 

Statto

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414 consultation saw 70% objected to cutback, but implemented regardless!
Ridiculous decision, if anything could have diverted the southern section of the 414 via Finborough Road/Redcliffe Gardens to Earls Court or West Brompton, & still serve Maida Vale, might as well withdraw the 414, as the 14 will now cover 98% of the 414.
 

Mikey C

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414 consultation saw 70% objected to cutback, but implemented regardless!
Now there's a surprise. You've got a better chance of getting President Putin to change his mind than getting a TfL bus cut reversed :rolleyes:
 

johncrossley

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Now there's a surprise. You've got a better chance of getting President Putin to change his mind than getting a TfL bus cut reversed :rolleyes:

At least there is a consultation. Outside London, commercial services can be changed or withdrawn with no consultation once the relevant notice has been given.

Contrary to popular opinion, consultation doesn't mean the same as negotiation. Similarly when there are job cuts and the company has to "consult" on redundancies.
 

galwhv69

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The 63 is actually an increase in frequency.
That coincides with the operator change to Abellio (and so the start date of the 63 service trial) which should constitute better specced vehicles, branding and a specially improved service.
(For anyone wondering, the new vehicles are ADL E400 City's, and a few have been recently spotted around Iver, where BYD is based)
 

matt_world2004

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The advertising revenue for boris buses goes to tfl not the operator. For non boris buses it varies so tfl can have all over advertising wraps if they wish.
 

700007

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Ridiculous decision, if anything could have diverted the southern section of the 414 via Finborough Road/Redcliffe Gardens to Earls Court or West Brompton, & still serve Maida Vale, might as well withdraw the 414, as the 14 will now cover 98% of the 414.
Given that there are a number of 'redundant' or 'dead man walking' routes in the K&C / Westminster / H&F Would have made more sense to merge the northern half of the 23 with the southern half of the 414. Could have made a fairly useful link out of that in my opinion i.e. a bus route from Westbourne Park to Putney Bridge via Ladbroke Grove, Paddington, Marble Arch, Knightsbridge, Chelsea and Fulham. The northern half of the 414 can be axed off as TfL seems to be hellbent on withdrawing that section, and the southern half of the lightly used 23 which duplicates the more frequent and direct 9 and 27 can be withdrawn too.
 

northken

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Given that there are a number of 'redundant' or 'dead man walking' routes in the K&C / Westminster / H&F Would have made more sense to merge the northern half of the 23 with the southern half of the 414. Could have made a fairly useful link out of that in my opinion i.e. a bus route from Westbourne Park to Putney Bridge via Ladbroke Grove, Paddington, Marble Arch, Knightsbridge, Chelsea and Fulham. The northern half of the 414 can be axed off as TfL seems to be hellbent on withdrawing that section, and the southern half of the lightly used 23 which duplicates the more frequent and direct 9 and 27 can be withdrawn too.
The 9 and 27 are both less frequent than the 23. Indeed, the 23 seems to have won out above all else, with the 7 (which also parallels it) also being reduced yet the 23 remaining completely unaffected.
 

MotCO

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Route One reports that Go-Ahead will be trialling the battery-electric Equipmake Jewel E double decker for 6 months from next January, on both existing electric and diesel routes. https://www.route-one.net/news/go-ahead-london-to-trial-battery-electric-equipmake-jewel-e/

Go-Ahead London (GAL) will begin in-service trials of the first Equipmake Jewel E battery-electric double-decker in February 2022, with the operator saying that it “welcomes the competition” that the manufacturer will bring to the segment.


GAL plans to evaluate the prototype Jewel E for a six-month period. The bus will first see use on existing battery-electric routes, but it will also work services that are currently in the hands of either diesel-electric hybrid or diesel buses as the operator seeks to “understand what the vehicle is capable of,” says Engineering Director Richard Harrington.


To Transport for London specification, the 10.9m Jewel E can carry 87 passengers. A subsequent provincial variant will potentially increase that number to beyond 90. Equipmake is also looking into a battery-electric single-decker, although the double-deck market is presently its priority.


DC charging is Equipmake’s focus, but the Jewel E can utilise AC if the customer wishes. Its CCS2 socket can be mounted on either the nearside, the offside or the rear. Adding opportunity charging rails on the roof would be straightforward, Equipmake says. Batteries are located under the staircase and on both sides of the bus behind the ZF AV 133 drive axle.


The Jewel E’s chassis is produced by Agrale in Brazil. It is then transported to Spain for Beulas to body. Integration of the proprietary driveline is undertaken by Equipmake at Snetterton. That package includes the HTM-3500 motor, which weighs 195kg and delivers a peak power of 400kW.


The Norfolk OEM expects to secure a 100,000 sq ft building near to its existing facility to allow it to satisfy orders for both new buses, and the retrofit of existing diesel vehicles to zero-emission.


Equipmake range promise for Jewel E attractive​


Equipmake’s range promise for the Jewel E is particularly attractive to GAL. When equipped with the maximum 543kW/h of energy storage, the OEM now says that 300 miles between charges is attainable. It adds that both range and battery life are highly dependent on vehicle usage characteristics, and thus important for the operator is to know when, and for how long, such a promise can be achieved.

Equipmake Jewel E upper deck
Equipmke says that heating in the Jewel E body – built by Beulas – has been optimised to minimise energy consumption and maximise range
Equipmake has a clever method of prolonging battery durability and thus range. Its approach is to utilise only 70% of the battery’s capacity when the bus is new and slowly increase that over time.


That offsets the natural degradation of the energy storage system and maintains range, Managing Director Ian Foley explains.


Other work suggests that the Jewel E will be highly energy efficient, adds GAL Chief Engineer Chris McKeown. A first examination has shown that “the bus is clearly highly engineered and innovative,” he says. The Jewel E’s aesthetics have also drawn positive comment from the operator’s representatives.


There is a further benefit to a graduated increase in battery capacity utilisation. While degradation over a prolonged period cannot be avoided, it occurs more slowly at lower states of charge. Equipmake’s approach minimises the speed of that process, says Mr Foley.


Jewel E comes with more smart bits, Equipmake says​


An area of focus for GAL on battery-electric buses is the energy consumption of their heating systems. The operator accepts that vehicle OEMs are working hard to reduce it, but experience has shown that there can be up to a 40% difference in range between summer and winter conditions, with much of that down to heating requirements in the latter season.


Mr Harrington’s favoured approach is that there is no fixation on achieving a set internal temperature in winter. Instead, a differential to that outside is preferable. In an optimal situation that is combined with pre-conditioning of the interior while the bus is on charge. The Jewel E can meet both of those requirements.


“We recognised early on that heating would be a major factor in development,” says Mr Foley. Equipmake’s work on that using heat pump technology has reduced the amount of energy consumed by the function to what it claims is around half that of some comparable systems.


A further factor in heating considers the passenger loading. More people aboard reduces the energy draw to maintain the temperature differential. Equipmake will use a CO2 detector to measure the occupation level, which will influence how much heat is introduced, and how much fresh air.


Discussions already open with other operators​


The Jewel E represents Beulas’s first entry into the UK bus sector. It approached Equipmake about a collaborative approach at Busworld Brussels in 2019. The Spanish bodybuilder also sees a market for the vehicle in left-hand drive markets.

Equipmake Jewel E lower saloon rear
To Transport for London specification, the Jewel E carries 87 passengers; in excess of 90 is expected for provincial one-door variants of the model
All eyes are now on the prototype’s trial with GAL. Mr Foley says that the OEM has been deliberately conservative in its range claims, although the Jewel E is also available with 325kW/h or 434kW/h of energy storage where distance between charges is not critical.


There is scope to add or withdraw battery packs to an existing bus to move between the three capacities.


Discussions have been opened with other operators, and how those progress will influence whether a further demonstrator is built. For production, “Beulas has the appetite and capacity for larger orders,” Mr Foley says.


Modelling work has shown Equipmake that the total cost of ownership of a battery-electric bus is less than that of a diesel. Its conclusion was recently echoed by one of the ‘big five’ operators. “Such a vehicle is fundamentally simpler and more reliable,” Mr Foley continues. “That is one of the reasons why we see such potential for the Jewel E.”

 

700007

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The 9 and 27 are both less frequent than the 23. Indeed, the 23 seems to have won out above all else, with the 7 (which also parallels it) also being reduced yet the 23 remaining completely unaffected.
The flow on that corridor has reduced over the years and the 9 and 27 should be able to cope alone without the 23.

Today is the last day of the 414 at Abellio, and also going to Maida Hill. Interestingly seems to be mostly operated with Enviro 400 MMC hybrids. I understand these will be on the 63 takeover tomorrow.
 

CyrusWuff

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More changes from 20th and 27th November. Full info, as always, at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/bus-changes

From the 20th: Route 87 reduced from every 6 minutes to every 7-8
From the 27th: Route 21 from every 6-7 minutes to every 8-9; routes 76, 91, 92 and 242 reduced from every 8-9 minutes to every 10.
 

bb21

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Consultation now open for the withdrawal of Route 168, with Route 1 extended to Hampstead Heath. I don't think the 1 ever went that way previously? https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/routes-1-168-188

Also open for consultation the reorg of routes in Highgate area and withdrawing Route 271. https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/routes-21-143-263-271

Whatever has happened to the Sutton and Croydon changes as the report was published in September and no date AIUI has been set so far for implementation.
 

MotCO

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Whatever has happened to the Sutton and Croydon changes as the report was published in September and no date AIUI has been set so far for implementation.

I believe that the contract for one route in that area has been extended by 12 months so that all the routes in the Sutton and Croydon area that were up for renewal can take place at the same time, I think something like next September.
 

TitanMike

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I believe that the contract for one route in that area has been extended by 12 months so that all the routes in the Sutton and Croydon area that were up for renewal can take place at the same time, I think something like next September.
School route 405D gets renumbered to 645 and extended to Waddon from 4/1/2022. No dates for the other changes.
 

Busaholic

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Consultation now open for the withdrawal of Route 168, with Route 1 extended to Hampstead Heath. I don't think the 1 ever went that way previously? https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/routes-1-168-188

Also open for consultation the reorg of routes in Highgate area and withdrawing Route 271. https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/routes-21-143-263-271

Whatever has happened to the Sutton and Croydon changes as the report was published in September and no date AIUI has been set so far for implementation.
You're correct, the 1 never went that way previously. Southampton Row, Russell Square, Euston and the rest would be new ground. Of course, Gower Street, Tottenham Court Road and Warren Street Station were very much part of the route for decades, with a left turn from TCR to Marylebone Road and, eventually, Willesden Garage. The fullest extent of the route was between Willesden Garage and Bromley Garage, but it wasn't possible on one bus or even on one day, as Bromley was reached on Monday to Friday whereas Willesden was only broached at weekends by that time.
 
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Tower Transit Westbourne Park (X) garage is being transferred to RATP on Saturday 11th December as part of the new joint venture between RATP & Kelsian Group (Until recently was known as SeaLink Group who owns the TT parent group) under the new London Transit licence of which RATP having the majority of 87.5% in the partnership.

All Tower Transit buses that are based at Westbourne Park will gain new fleet numbers in the due course and in terms of the letter codes; VH and WH are staying the same. VN to VDW, DNH to ADH, MV to VMH, OE to OME, DML to DE and WV to WLS.

Source: http://www.lots.org.uk/
 

lxfe_mxtterz

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Is anybody able to advise on whether the route 77 is running tomorrow (20 December) please?

I'll be travelling to London and will need to use the route 77, but both TfL and bustimes.org claim that the route isn't running tomorrow. If for whatever reason this is the case, I will have to re-plan my journey accordingly.

Is this likely just a database error or must I rethink my plans?

Thanks in advance. :)
 

galwhv69

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Putney, London
Is anybody able to advise on whether the route 77 is running tomorrow (20 December) please?

I'll be travelling to London and will need to use the route 77, but both TfL and bustimes.org claim that the route isn't running tomorrow. If for whatever reason this is the case, I will have to re-plan my journey accordingly.

Is this likely just a database error or must I rethink my plans?

Thanks in advance. :)
No reason why it shouldn't. TfL has been having a few issues with routes not showing up recently, so it's probably just another case of that
 

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