London Buses Discussion

[telstarbox]

I thought it might be a good idea to have a running thread for London Buses news (i.e. TfL services)

So first off - TfL are trialling route branding on routes around Barkingside. The colour coding branding is on the vehicles and at bus stops.

https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-trials-new-tube-style-approach-to-buses

The Mayor of London has today set out his ambition of making the capitals buses as simple to use as the London Underground as he trials the first Tube-style approach to bus travel.

Individual routes have been given their own distinct colour and links to other TfL services have been clearly identified in a new approach that will give passengers travel information in a similar way to the Tube.

The buses and stop signs will be marked in their identifiable colours and the main destinations and interchanges will be listed on the side of the buses. This will simplify use of the bus network in local areas as passengers will be able to tell, at a glance, where the bus will go.

A new trial of this innovative approach has begun in east London where more than 60 red buses are being given their own splash of colour to mark seven different routes. The changes aim to simplify journeys for passengers travelling in Barkingside and across the area including journeys to and from Romford, Walthamstow, Ilford, Loughton and Barking.

A further trial is planned for the summer in Hayes, in west London. If successful, the new designs could spread to other parts of the capital.

 

[J-2739]

I think a thread like this was long needed. Perhaps we could talk about tenders as well.

Route branding is a great idea, for tourists and the ones who don't use the bus often. I'm surprised that they haven't considered this earlier.

 

[duncanp]

Notice how the press release also says "..Matching bus capacity with demand by reducing the underused services in central London and reallocating them to where they are needed..."

In other words "...cutting bus services due to the reduction in fare income caused by freezing fares for 4 years, introducing the hopper fare, and the endless "cycling works" ..."

Looking at the picture of the bus on route 150, it is just a bit of window dressing really, and I can't see that it is going to make a lot of difference.

 

[ooo]

Looking at the picture of the bus on route 150, it is just a bit of window dressing really, and I can't see that it is going to make a lot of difference.

Yes when I read it I was expecting the bus to have been painted in a similar style to route branding used by Operaters such as First

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[MatthewRead]

Just like the privatization again

 

[CatfordCat]

I think a thread like this was long needed. Perhaps we could talk about tenders as well.

Route branding is a great idea, for tourists and the ones who don't use the bus often. I'm surprised that they haven't considered this earlier.

the idea comes along every now and then - route 15 was route branded in 1985 - photo (not mine) on flickr of the livery experiments here (the yellow upper band and yellow roof versions were not continued with)

a few other routes - mainly RM / RML operated (although Ts on the 188 got it as well) got yellow bands and blinds and in many cases the adverts either side of the front blinds were used.

It was more effective when there was only one routemaster route left at whatever garage it was - the snag with route branded buses is that they will often turn up on the wrong route...

 

[Statto]

Some interesting changes & proposals coming up

6 is being rerouted via Piccadilly & Park Lane, i think it's the first time a bus route will operate this way direct
22 rerouted from Piccadilly Circus to operate via the C2 to Oxford Circus
3 proposal to divert to Russell Square

 

[MotCO]

Wouldn't it just be better to provide better blinds to provide via points of the route, rather than just the terminus? Perspective passengers would then be able to see exactly where the bus was going. You would not need to have different colour buses for that so t would be more practical with no 'wrong-route' buses.

 

[Statto]

What's with TFLs opposition to LED Blinds, everywhere else now uses LEDs, although the dimmed LEDs are a right pain in the buttocks in the day, ironic that non TFL routes that operate in the TFL area use buses with LEDs.

Also Arriva are cutting the 402 to operate Tunbridge Wells-Dunton Green in July, although a none TFL route it's going to have an impact in the TFL area

 

[MotCO]

Also Arriva are cutting the 402 to operate Tunbridge Wells-Dunton Green in July, although a none TFL route it's going to have an impact in the TFL area

Is that confirmed? I had heard of a proposal to truncate the route, but thought it had been dropped. Is it back on again?

If so, is there any demand for a Sevenoaks to Bromley route to cover the missing bit? Would Metrobus want to run a feeder route to link up with its 358?

 

[radamfi]

What's with TFLs opposition to LED Blinds, everywhere else now uses LEDs, although the dimmed LEDs are a right pain in the buttocks in the day, ironic that non TFL routes that operate in the TFL area use buses with LEDs.

There is not such a need in London as each bus will only need a few destinations on each blind. Buses tend to stay on the same route all day.

 

[Statto]

Is that confirmed? I had heard of a proposal to truncate the route, but thought it had been dropped. Is it back on again?

If so, is there any demand for a Sevenoaks to Bromley route to cover the missing bit? Would Metrobus want to run a feeder route to link up with its 358?

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/lsp/6c352a0b/

I think the consultation is just to see if a replacement route is viable, & i wouldn't be surprised if this happens that TFL &, or Kent County Council, fund in full or part of the withdrawn section, as there are a couple of villages between Green Street Green & Dunton Green where the 402 is the only service

 

[edwin_m]

Diamond Geezer on the route branding:

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/unleashing-rainbow.html

I've been to Barkingside. I wanted to know whether this is a genuine simplification or whether it might be some kind of dumbing-down. Here's what I found.

 

[telstarbox]

Citymapper (a journey planning app) are launching a trial route (zero fare to avoid having to register the service with the TC?)

On May 9, WIRED can exclusively reveal, Citymapper will launch a bus in central London. Called CMX1, the route will run from Southwark – near the company’s headquarters – to Blackfriars, west to Waterloo bridge, and back along the south bank. Although it’ll use existing bus stops, it won’t look like your regular London bus: for one, it’ll use smaller, 30-seater vehicles, dubbed “Sprinters”, painted bright green. Inside, the company has redesigned the bus experience: seats will offer USB charging points, large displays will advise users on when to get off. Up front, the driver will use a custom-built tablet interface to stay informed in real-time on traffic, passenger numbers, and headway (the distance between vehicles) advised by a central controller using Citymapper’s demand data.

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/citymapper-london-bus-cmx1

 

[PhilStockley]

It's in London so it wouldn't be registered with the TC anyway, but would need permission from TfL - which is a lot less straightforward than registering a bus route outside the capital!

While I applaud Citymapper and welcome anything which moves the industry forward, it makes me sad that Londoners will get on a bus and think that app-based bus tracking and USB charging are amazing new innovations that it has taken guys like these to drag the sleepy old bus industry out of the dark ages. Whereas in reality large chunks of the industry outside London has been doing stuff like this on a commercial basis for years.

 

[Deerfold]

It's in London so it wouldn't be registered with the TC anyway, but would need permission from TfL - which is a lot less straightforward than registering a bus route outside the capital!

While I applaud Citymapper and welcome anything which moves the industry forward, it makes me sad that Londoners will get on a bus and think that app-based bus tracking and USB charging are amazing new innovations that it has taken guys like these to drag the sleepy old bus industry out of the dark ages. Whereas in reality large chunks of the industry outside London has been doing stuff like this on a commercial basis for years.

Bus tracking is hardly new in London either (as Citymapper well know). I wonder if it's deliberate that they're running it past London Buses HQ (but not stopping there).

I used to like the branding on the 19.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londo.../File:Kentish_Bus_AEC_Routemaster_RML2574.jpg

 

[Mojo]

I really don't understand the concept behind this Citymapper "Smart" bus having read the article a number of times. I know this "Popup" route is basically just your average bus but what they are suggesting is the future: how does demand responsive transport actually work in an urban context? For a start, their data seems to come from searches; what if a search is made but the route not travelled on, and there must be a bigger proportion of people who already know the route so don't need to do a search, they just turn up and go?

Also, if the route changes based on demand and traffic; how would I know where to alight or board if the route just changes on a whim?

 

[telstarbox]

I'm assuming they would change the route maybe every couple of months rather than every day (unless two consecutive stops are far enough apart that there are non-trivial route options between them).

 

[Mojo]

I'm assuming they would change the route maybe every couple of months rather than every day (unless two consecutive stops are far enough apart that there are non-trivial route options between them).

But isn't there a reason for the reason things being as they are at the moment? Customers value certainty, and like to know what way they are going to catch; TfL can and does change bus routes and stops, after the changes have been consulted on so people can have their say, and then adequately publicised. I can't see how changing the route every couple of months is going to please the users if they have to research their new options every time they travel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

what they are suggesting is the future: how does demand responsive transport actually work in an urban context?

I'm guessing it'll work like a more flexible version of the Hackney Community Transport 812 service around Clerkenwell and Hoxton.

I can't see TfL going for anything more flexible than that. If it doesn't run to a route or a timetable, it isn't a bus service.

 

[edwin_m]

But isn't there a reason for the reason things being as they are at the moment? Customers value certainty, and like to know what way they are going to catch; TfL can and does change bus routes and stops, after the changes have been consulted on so people can have their say, and then adequately publicised. I can't see how changing the route every couple of months is going to please the users if they have to research their new options every time they travel.

Maybe they just want people to go on Citymapper all the time to find out where the bus is this week?

 

[Busaholic]

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/lsp/6c352a0b/

I think the consultation is just to see if a replacement route is viable, & i wouldn't be surprised if this happens that TFL &, or Kent County Council, fund in full or part of the withdrawn section, as there are a couple of villages between Green Street Green & Dunton Green where the 402 is the only service

TfL seem prepared to run the 265 to Leatherhead (only the onward routeing to Dorking requiring Surrey CC money) and the 405 to Redhill, so I see no reason why they should not tender for a Bromley to Sevenoaks route. Dunton Green would be an unsatisfactory terminus from the Bromley direction, but is very close to the London/Kent border. Far better for the 402 to terminate at the underused Sevenoaks Bus Station and passengers to transfer to a TfL service there. I suspect TfL might, though, try to rejig the R (former Roundabout) routes, which would suggest an Orpington connection i.e. closely paralleling the train service.

 

[MotCO]

TfL seem prepared to run the 265 to Leatherhead (only the onward routeing to Dorking requiring Surrey CC money) and the 405 to Redhill, so I see no reason why they should not tender for a Bromley to Sevenoaks route. Dunton Green would be an unsatisfactory terminus from the Bromley direction, but is very close to the London/Kent border. Far better for the 402 to terminate at the underused Sevenoaks Bus Station and passengers to transfer to a TfL service there. I suspect TfL might, though, try to rejig the R (former Roundabout) routes, which would suggest an Orpington connection i.e. closely paralleling the train service.

Would it be feasible / financial viable to divert some 358s to Sevenoaks rather than Orpington?

 

[Busaholic]

Would it be feasible / financial viable to divert some 358s to Sevenoaks rather than Orpington?

Would have to have a separate number of course: no suffixes allowable in TfL land. I can't remember the exact circumstances now, but I think it was when the Roundabout routes were created in 1986 and the direct 'red' bus connection between Farnborough Village and Bromley was cut after decades, but a late addition to the substantial route changes in the area saw the then-independent Metrobus introduce an hourly 361 service from Bromley North to Green St Green, operated by one bus, to supplement the non-LT hourly 402 between those points. Not too many years before that, the Green Line 704 operated a half-hourly service on weekdays from Sevenoaks to Bromley, augmented by a double-deck 402 hourly! There was also a spasmodic London Country 431 and suffixes between Sevenoaks and Orpington, operated out of Dunton Green, the epitome of a 'country' garage. Nowadays the Sevenoaks area is amongst the country's richest, of course, and infertile for a commercial operator, I guess.

 

[Busaholic]

Some numbers for the Barkingside route branding exercise. Five of the seven routes are run by Stagecoach and on those routes with a combined PVR of 53 there will be 38 colour coded, so around 70 to 75%, with the rest in standard livery. The Arriva routes will presumably be treated similarly.

 

[plcd1]

Would it be feasible / financial viable to divert some 358s to Sevenoaks rather than Orpington?

Would have to have a separate number of course: no suffixes allowable in TfL land. I can't remember the exact circumstances now, but I think it was when the Roundabout routes were created in 1986 and the direct 'red' bus connection between Farnborough Village and Bromley was cut after decades, but a late addition to the substantial route changes in the area saw the then-independent Metrobus introduce an hourly 361 service from Bromley North to Green St Green, operated by one bus, to supplement the non-LT hourly 402 between those points. Not too many years before that, the Green Line 704 operated a half-hourly service on weekdays from Sevenoaks to Bromley, augmented by a double-deck 402 hourly! There was also a spasmodic London Country 431 and suffixes between Sevenoaks and Orpington, operated out of Dunton Green, the epitome of a 'country' garage. Nowadays the Sevenoaks area is amongst the country's richest, of course, and infertile for a commercial operator, I guess.

An off peak M-F limited service, numbered 431, has been contracted by KCC and will be run by Go Coach from Sevenoaks to Orpington. Details have been posted on the Knockholt Parish Council website and there is a further public meeting in late June. Arriva have formally sought permission to cancel their London Service Permit for the 402 into Greater London.

 

[plcd1]

Some numbers for the Barkingside route branding exercise. Five of the seven routes are run by Stagecoach and on those routes with a combined PVR of 53 there will be 38 colour coded, so around 70 to 75%, with the rest in standard livery. The Arriva routes will presumably be treated similarly.

There are more branded vehicles now knocking around. I pop across to Ilford weekly and see several of the branded routes. The volume of branded buses has increased but it's still possible to see several unbranded vehicles in a row on the same route - as I did with the 150 yesterday. Also a bit sparse on the 462 but they are new buses on a new contract and Stagecoach don't seem to have got the hang of running that route properly yet. Go Ahead ran it like clockwork but far too much bunching and gaps with Stagey at the moment.

 

[Busaholic]

An off peak M-F limited service, numbered 431, has been contracted by KCC and will be run by Go Coach from Sevenoaks to Orpington. Details have been posted on the Knockholt Parish Council website and there is a further public meeting in late June. Arriva have formally sought permission to cancel their London Service Permit for the 402 into Greater London.

As I thought might happen. The 431 and its suffixes were always the poor relation to the 402 north of Sevenoaks, for very good reason i.e. the demand was never there, in the offpeak anyway. When the Orpington Roundabout network was created they even briefly tried an offpeak back road service to Sevenoaks, but it carried mostly fresh air and was quietly withdrawn. Back around that time Metrobus was contracted to provide an hourly 361 service from Bromley North to Green St Green, using one bus, but it was found that the headway was impossible to maintain for most of the day: the problem that was known in London Transport circles as the '146 problem' because one opo bus could only provide a 64 minute headway between Bromley and Downe, which is why that route remained crew RT operated until near the end of that class!

p.s. I'm not quoting myself, there's been a fault with the system.

 

[Abpj17]

Citymapper (a journey planning app) are launching a trial route (zero fare to avoid having to register the service with the TC?)



http://www.wired.co.uk/article/citymapper-london-bus-cmx1

Interesting - as a passenger, it's a shame it only seems to have been in place for 2 days.

 

[Busaholic]

Interesting - as a passenger, it's a shame it only seems to have been in place for 2 days.

There was a full report in 'Bus and Coach Weekly' which concluded it really didn't fill a need, in that the distance travelled was quite walkable by most people.