London Buses Discussion

[Mikey C]

Whilst TfL has said that no new diesel buses will be bought after 2020 for single deckers and 2025 for double deckers, some routes may not be suitable for conversion to all-electric power. It hs been said on this forum that the reason why electric buses have not been introduced on route 358, as required in the tender, is because the mileage range of current buses is not sufficient to run this intensive route. There may be problems running some 24 hour routes - when will the buses be recharged? - and many central London routes are 24 hour operations, so I would not expect all central London routes to be converted to electric within 5 years. Hydrogen yes, electric no.

The other problem is that the purchase price of non-diesel buses is substantially higher than for diesel buses, and this will be reflected in higher tender costs. Running costs may be lower, but may not offset the higher purchase price. Given the state of TfL finances, will this be affordable?

Have ANY diesel buses been bought recently for London? It seems that all tenders now either use existing buses or new electric or hydrogen buses, whether single or double decker, especially as there's no shortage of Euro VI compliant buses

 

[Surreyman]

Given that the oldest (Regular) buses now in service in london are circa 2007, so around 13/14 years old and the collective fleet is now all Euro 6 compliant, perhaps we will see a slow down in replacement rates?
The currently published list of routes out to tender has a lot of 2 year contract extensions.
Many Hints in the media of late about current & post Covid Budgetary pressures could see a slow down in vehicle investment.
RATPs recent awards for electric bus operated routes means that we will likely soon see 2009 registered buses, Euro 6 compliant, coming onto the secondhand market and yes I do agree ex London buses are often pretty 'hammered' after several years service.

 

[TitanMike]

Have ANY diesel buses been bought recently for London? It seems that all tenders now either use existing buses or new electric or hydrogen buses, whether single or double decker, especially as there's no shortage of Euro VI compliant buses

I believe the last new diesel buses were the 20 reg E200 MMC for the K1 last June.

 

[FOH]

You can imagine all the major central London routes going over to electric buses in the next 5 years, displacing all the Borismasters from their natural territory. The oldest by then will have had a reasonable life

I'm no bus engineer but since the Routemasters are electric drive already, very simplistically I wonder can the engine and fuel tank be replaced with batteries of the same weight to make it an electric conversion...

 

[Snow1964]

Have ANY diesel buses been bought recently for London? It seems that all tenders now either use existing buses or new electric or hydrogen buses, whether single or double decker, especially as there's no shortage of Euro VI compliant buses

Last were 2019 ordered batch of 9m single decks for K1, which arrived 7 months ago. There have been fairly low numbers of new buses in 2020, and also likely to be about 300 in 2021

On average London gets about 700 buses per year, but the current lull is a hangover from rush to convert to low floor by March 2006. Quite simply there were very few new buses for 2.5 years from Spring 2006 to late 2008 so very few have reached the (nominal) 14 years recently.

However from 2022 (unless there are serious route cuts releasing newer buses) new bus orders will need to ramp up considerably as 2009-2012 (in run up to Olympics, and Boris’ replacement of bendies) has average over over 800 buses per year in the fleet. There were also many new single decks from this period replacing first generation low floor buses. The fleet age profile is on link (9 months old as March 2020)

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-audit-report-31-march-2020.pdf

I understand new hybrid double decks are still a tender option, but as mayor suggested 2030 as final withdrawal date for non zero emission buses (2035 and 2037 had previously been suggested), doesn’t make any commercial sense to order a London spec bus that might not be compliant for second contract, so unlikely to see any more hybrids. It is also possible that the electric buses may be able to do 3 contracts 15-18 years as they don’t have rattling diesel engines shaking them to bits (but to early to tell how old they will be allowed to be).

 

[Planesandtrain]

Confirmed that 413 is going to A whilst the 463 & S1 are going to C, the 413's Citaro's are to be transferred to A as well.

The 413 is said to be using other buses, whilst those Citaros are used on the RATP's newly won 117 along with two E200 MMC's off spare from the 283's.

 

[galwhv69]

The 413 is said to be using other buses, whilst those Citaros are used on the RATP's newly won 117 along with two E200 MMC's off spare from the 283's.

Ah yes, the plan was changed already

 

[Snow1964]

The 413 is said to be using other buses, whilst those Citaros are used on the RATP's newly won 117 along with two E200 MMC's off spare from the 283's.

The 413 may be using older buses released from elsewhere

Its probably only for about 5 months initially (the transfer is about June, and currently awaiting the tender result to know who operate it from December). Not sure GoAhead has suitable existing buses for a tender bid, so might be new buses end of 2021

 

[MotCO]

The 413 may be using older buses released from elsewhere

Its probably only for about 5 months initially (the transfer is about June, and currently awaiting the tender result to know who operate it from December). Not sure GoAhead has suitable existing buses for a tender bid, so might be new buses end of 2021

Has Go-Ahead London got 10 small single deckers knocking around doing nothing at the moment? It has had to find 9 existing single deckers for route 469 and 7 for the B12 in January, so are there any others spare? Are ther any contract loses coming up?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I'm no bus engineer but since the Routemasters are electric drive already, very simplistically I wonder can the engine and fuel tank be replaced with batteries of the same weight to make it an electric conversion...

Surely it's not strictly the engine to replace, since the diesel engine is used to generate electricity not to directly drive the vehicle. In a sense, it's the generator (and its fuel) you're replacing with extra batteries. (There's surely already a battery powering the electric motor, as a buffer/resevoir which gets topped up on and off by the diesel generator.) But if you did take out the diesel and put in more batteries, then you need to recharge the (greater number) of batteries.

I've seen it said that the design would be suitable for conversion to a trolleybus, to get over the re-charging problem.

 

[TitanMike]

Notification of Tender Results



22nd January 2021



LBSL intends to enter into new contracts for the following routes with the operators listed below:

Route	Current Operator	New Operator	PVR​	Vehicles
273	Stagecoach Selkent	Stagecoach Selkent	9​	Existing diesel single deck
335	Arriva London North	Arriva London North	7​	Existing hybrid double deck
608	Blue Triangle	Blue Triangle	3​	Existing diesel double deck
624/658	London Central	London Central	4​	Existing diesel double deck
625	London Central	London Central	2​	Existing diesel double deck
652	Blue Triangle	Blue Triangle	2​	Existing double deck (details TBC)
655	London General	London United	1​	Existing diesel double deck
656	Blue Triangle	Blue Triangle	3​	Existing double deck (details TBC)
679	Blue Triangle	Blue Triangle	4​	Existing double deck (details TBC)
686	Blue Triangle	Blue Triangle	2​	Existing double deck (details TBC)

 

[chopperman21]

Last Weekend, Go-Ahead London took over operation of Routes B12 and 469 using ex Abellio London buses. Such as SEN47.

 

[700007]

Last Weekend, Go-Ahead London took over operation of Routes B12 and 469 using ex Abellio London buses. Such as SEN47.

Interestingly and rather confusingly, TfL has updated iBus announcements on both routes to show

'Woolwich Common, Queen Elizabeth Hospital' for the 469 instead of 'Queen Elizabeth Hospital' despite the route itself not properly serving Woolwich Common

And

'Bexley Village' instead of 'Joyden's Wood' before midday when the B12 runs in the opposite direction around the Joyden's Wood loop.

The 469 reroute via New Road and Woolwich Road has also been delayed until further notice pending the resisting of street furniture around Belvedere.

 

[chopperman21]

14138 is one of a number of the Route 173 batch currently being 'run-in' at Rainham on the Route 174. There is now a provisional start date for them on the Route 173 of 27/02.

 

[Busaholic]

Interestingly and rather confusingly, TfL has updated iBus announcements on both routes to show

'Woolwich Common, Queen Elizabeth Hospital' for the 469 instead of 'Queen Elizabeth Hospital' despite the route itself not properly serving Woolwich Common

And

'Bexley Village' instead of 'Joyden's Wood' before midday when the B12 runs in the opposite direction around the Joyden's Wood loop.

The 469 reroute via New Road and Woolwich Road has also been delayed until further notice pending the resisting of street furniture around Belvedere.

Street furniture can prove very resistant. Actually, I think the addition of 'Woolwich Common' is welcome - I bet that many at the other end of the route don't know the exact location of QE2 Hospital.

 

[Snow1964]

RATP have won another 2 routes in Latest tenders
125 from Metroline with 17 electric double deckers
235 from Metroline with 20 electric single deck buses

I think with already gained 49, it takes RATP upto about 200 additional like electric buses (exact number depends on spares)

London Omnibus Traction Society

Britain's biggest bus enthusiasts' group.

www.lots.org.uk

please see news section on link for full details and the retained routes

 

[GusB]

RATP have won another 2 routes in Latest tenders
125 from Metroline with 17 electric double deckers
235 from Metroline with 20 electric single deck buses

I think with already gained 49, it takes RATP upto about 200 additional like electric buses (exact number depends on spares)

Please remember to link to and quote from your sources, please.

 

[chopperman21]

LT buses like 882 have started to occasionaly operate on Route 184 now

 

[Mikey C]

A former London Bus transformed into a home!

A Plaxton President bodied B7TL (ex Go Ahead) by the look of it

We’re mortgage free after buying £2k London bus & turning it into a stylish home

FOR most people, paying off your mortgage feels like some sort of pipe dream – you know it’ll (hopefully) happen one day but it might take you decades to get there. Well rather than spe…

www.thesun.co.uk

Couple turn £2,500 London double-decker bus into luxury home

This house looks great!

metro.co.uk

 

[MotCO]

What are the restrictions on second hand buses in London? Is there an age restriction, or just that the engines are Euro VI?

I've been wondering if there are many spare 'compliant' double deckers in London? New tenders are either 'existing double decker' or new, i.e electric double deckers. At some stage, the supply of 'existing double deckers' will dry up, so all new tenders will, by default, be new electric (or hydrogen) buses. Alternatively, we may see some New Routemasters transferred to 'strange' suburban routes, à la 313.

 

[Snow1964]

What are the restrictions on second hand buses in London? Is there an age restriction, or just that the engines are Euro VI?

I've been wondering if there are many spare 'compliant' double deckers in London? New tenders are either 'existing double decker' or new, i.e electric double deckers. At some stage, the supply of 'existing double deckers' will dry up, so all new tenders will, by default, be new electric (or hydrogen) buses. Alternatively, we may see some New Routemasters transferred to 'strange' suburban routes, à la 313.

I assume by secondhand you mean operate a second contract for TfL, there is no restriction on having a previous owner /Operator

There is an age restriction (14 years at end of contract), which in practice seems to mean buses upto 9 years old can be used (remember some contracts eg school routes are fixed 5 years, not normal 5+2). I have heard that from contracts commencing April 2022 onwards the default length will be 7 years (but not seen details)

It is certainly true that Operators have offered to use as many suitable spare buses in tenders as they have, an example is Stagecoach winning route 180 with mix of new and existing buses.

I think there are approx 2500 diesel double decks, 2800 hybrid double decks, 1000 hybrid new routemasters, (and newer electric double decks) and whilst majority of diesel ones are now too old for another contract, only the earliest hybrids are too old.

TfL produce an annual (used to be quarterly) fleet audit which has age profile graphs (although now 11 months out of date it will give you idea as only been about 300 buses replaced since

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-audit-report-31-march-2020.pdf

 

[MotCO]

I assume by secondhand you mean operate a second contract for TfL, there is no restriction on having a previous owner /Operator

I did actually mean secondhand. There has certainly been a trend in recent years of buses being recycled between companies, so I thought at some stage this source of buses will dry up. For example, Tower Transit has bought some buses from Metroline, and I recall Stagecoach sold some B5LHs to another London company. If no new diesel buses are coming into the mix, then there will come a time when only new (i.e. electric) buses can be used on new contracts, and by default, all contrats will be on the basis of new buses, and not secondhand.

 

[Mikey C]

I did actually mean secondhand. There has certainly been a trend in recent years of buses being recycled between companies, so I thought at some stage this source of buses will dry up. For example, Tower Transit has bought some buses from Metroline, and I recall Stagecoach sold some B5LHs to another London company. If no new diesel buses are coming into the mix, then there will come a time when only new (i.e. electric) buses can be used on new contracts, and by default, all contrats will be on the basis of new buses, and not secondhand.

But then if an operator ends up with a surplus of electric buses, they'll be returned to the lessor or sold on to another operator, which might be a London operator!

 

[MotCO]

But then if an operator ends up with a surplus of electric buses, they'll be returned to the lessor or sold on to another operator, which might be a London operator!

True, but I think we are a long way from that. It would also assume that the new tender required new electric buses to replace older electric buses.

 

[Mikey C]

True, but I think we are a long way from that. It would also assume that the new tender required new electric buses to replace older electric buses.

It will happen though if an operator loses a route. Once ALL garages are "wired up" then tenders for electric buses will be the same as those for conventional buses

 

[py_megapixel]

How does the ownership model work? Is it that Transport for London owns the garages but the franchisee owns the vehicles there?

 

[MotCO]

It will happen though if an operator loses a route. Once ALL garages are "wired up" then tenders for electric buses will be the same as those for conventional buses

Yes, but before then, there will be a dearth of London-compliant diesel double deckers, so by default, all tenders for double deck routes will have to have electric vehicles, and most of them (if not all) will have to be new. Whether or not TfL can afford tenders with new buses, given the state of their finances, is the issue. (I'm assuming electric buses cost more than secondhand diesel buses even if leased, [and the reduced running costs do not compensate for the extra capital cost], and therefore the contract value will be higher.) The same is probably true for single deck contracts.

How does the ownership model work? Is it that Transport for London owns the garages but the franchisee owns the vehicles there?

Most companies own their depots. TfL undertook a search for new sites about 15 years ago when demand for buses was increasing, but I don't know if TfL actually owned the sites or just operated as a broker.

Companies either own, or lease their vehicles from leasing companies (e.g. Lombard or Santander). The exception are the New Routemasters which are owned by TfL and presumably leased to the operators.

 

[galwhv69]

Most companies own their depots. TfL undertook a search for new sites about 15 years ago when demand for buses was increasing, but I don't know if TfL actually owned the sites or just operated as a broker.

Companies either own, or lease their vehicles from leasing companies (e.g. Lombard or Santander). The exception are the New Routemasters which are owned by TfL and presumably leased to the operators.

Yep, there are a limited few owned by TfL though (Taken from an FOI request)

Transport for London does have some freehold interest in the following bus garages that are leased to bus operators on long leases: Ash Grove, Brixton Tramshed, Edgware, Fulwell, Twickenham, Walworth, West Ham and Uxbridge,

NRM's are leased (link to lease agreement here if anyone's interested)

 

[chopperman21]

Route 173 is the latest route to receive electric buses, such as 14113.

 

[py_megapixel]

Route 173 is the latest route to receive electric buses, such as 14113.

No BYD logo on the front - do these not have BYD involvement, or have Stagecoach just not wanted the logo there?