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London Buses Discussion

MotCO

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An off peak M-F limited service, numbered 431, has been contracted by KCC and will be run by Go Coach from Sevenoaks to Orpington. Details have been posted on the Knockholt Parish Council website and there is a further public meeting in late June. Arriva have formally sought permission to cancel their London Service Permit for the 402 into Greater London.

I would have put money on Go Coach providing a replacement. If Metrobus still displayed its entrepreneurial approach, it could have also been a contender, but it does seem to have been somewhat neutered by its Go Ahead parent.
 
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sk688

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Arriva have lost the 142 & 258 to London Sovereign from early next year.

Thank goodness for that !

Finally the end of horrid , dirty , worn out buses on these routes

What buses will LS use ?

I'm guessing maybe 183's 59 plate omnicities , or maybe the 65 plate B5LHs on the 183 , or maybe even the SRMs
 

traji00

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Thank goodness for that !



Finally the end of horrid , dirty , worn out buses on these routes



What buses will LS use ?



I'm guessing maybe 183's 59 plate omnicities , or maybe the 65 plate B5LHs on the 183 , or maybe even the SRMs



Enviro 400s from Hounslow, made redundant from the 120/222 losses.
 

Deerfold

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Thank goodness for that !

Finally the end of horrid , dirty , worn out buses on these routes

What buses will LS use ?

I'm guessing maybe 183's 59 plate omnicities , or maybe the 65 plate B5LHs on the 183 , or maybe even the SRMs

The buses to be used will be coming off routes 120 and 222 plus 4 new Euro VI Hybrids.
 

sk688

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Guess I was really off the mark then , thanks both

Oh well , still be better than the crappy ex Brixton buses that we currently have to put up with
 

PermitToTravel

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I'm going to miss the ex-Brixton sheds - they're loud and fast, and provide some welcome variety among a sea of Enviros
 

RJ

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Guess I was really off the mark then , thanks both

Oh well , still be better than the crappy ex Brixton buses that we currently have to put up with

Those buses are pretty mint - I drove buses with the same engine/tranmission elsewhere in London and it was a most enjoyable experience!
 

Mikey C

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Arriva have lost the 142 & 258 to London Sovereign from early next year.

I assume the routes will be running as they currently do, as there had been concerns about their future outside of London after Herts cut their subsidy
 

sk688

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Those buses are pretty mint - I drove buses with the same engine/tranmission elsewhere in London and it was a most enjoyable experience!

They just seem so poorly looked after , and just a mess overall , which is why I didn't like them
 

class387

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According to LVF, there is currently a bus running on the 183 with the fleet number 0 and called RANEW043. Does anyone know what this is?
 

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Busaholic

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Latest contract awards show Abellio losing the 172 and 343/N343 to London Central early next year: that's 40 buses worth of work. LC retain the v. important 36 plus the 225, so they're in favour again.
 

MotCO

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Recently, Metrobus lost 42 buses-worth of work. London Central have now gained 40 buses-worth of work (routes 172 and 343), London General have gained 30 buses-worth of work (153 and 214) not to mention the gain of all the buses on route 15 and 115.

Anyone else think that there may be a shuffling of routes around between London Central, London General and Metrobus?
 

Be3G

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Looks like the trimming of surplus PVRs is moving to the suburbs. I've noticed plenty of cases in central London where e.g. an every-8-minute route has become every 10 minutes, but now the little suburban partially hail-and-ride 384 is being cut from every 15 to every 20 minutes, with school journeys withdrawn too, making a reduction at school times from 5bph to just 3.

Admittedly, I haven't used the 384 enough to know whether it's justified or not, but it makes me wonder how long it'll be before a 3bph suburban route is cut back to 2bph, which will definitely be felt. :(
 

Busaholic

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Looks like the trimming of surplus PVRs is moving to the suburbs. I've noticed plenty of cases in central London where e.g. an every-8-minute route has become every 10 minutes, but now the little suburban partially hail-and-ride 384 is being cut from every 15 to every 20 minutes, with school journeys withdrawn too, making a reduction at school times from 5bph to just 3.

Admittedly, I haven't used the 384 enough to know whether it's justified or not, but it makes me wonder how long it'll be before a 3bph suburban route is cut back to 2bph, which will definitely be felt. :(

Many routes are having clockface timetables replaced, often on a so-called 'temporary' basis, so a 20 minute headway becomes 21 or 22 minutes, a 30 minute headway 32 minutes etc., so as not to increase pvr. Regrettably, this is very reminiscent of the bad old days of the 1960s,'70s and '80s when retrenchment was at its worst and passenger numbers were going down the pan, especially in the evenings and Sundays when you need clockface timetables on less frequent routes to retain any hope of attracting the occasional bus traveller. TfL bus dept. seems in kamikaze mode at present, though still pretending that outer suburban services are going to get the resources pulled from central/inner London, of which there is scant evidence other than in parts of W/NW London last year.
 

sk688

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Many routes are having clockface timetables replaced, often on a so-called 'temporary' basis, so a 20 minute headway becomes 21 or 22 minutes, a 30 minute headway 32 minutes etc., so as not to increase pvr. Regrettably, this is very reminiscent of the bad old days of the 1960s,'70s and '80s when retrenchment was at its worst and passenger numbers were going down the pan, especially in the evenings and Sundays when you need clockface timetables on less frequent routes to retain any hope of attracting the occasional bus traveller. TfL bus dept. seems in kamikaze mode at present, though still pretending that outer suburban services are going to get the resources pulled from central/inner London, of which there is scant evidence other than in parts of W/NW London last year.

There is some ( very little ) evidence of this though . The 186 got a frequency increase in the peak , which is good , as it is currently horribly unreliable and overcrowded , with vehicles being stuck on the A41 during the peaks
 

Busaholic

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There is some ( very little ) evidence of this though . The 186 got a frequency increase in the peak , which is good , as it is currently horribly unreliable and overcrowded , with vehicles being stuck on the A41 during the peaks

Yes, Harrow, Wembley, Ealing have seen marginal increases on some routes, but I'd estimate 90% of routes that have seen changes in the peak over the last year now get a worse service, almost always because of lengthened journeys without extra buses scheduled. I know why TfL can't schedule the extra buses, they just need to admit it and stop pretending the Hopper is the panacea for all problems when it will become less and less relevant as people can't make a connection in the time available.
 

sk688

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Anyone seen TFL's new consultations over bus services

Did the West London one , and while some of the changes were good , I am appalled at their idea to butcher the 140 , cutting it to Hayes , while making the limited stop x140 , only from Harrow bus station , not Harrow Weald

The 427 is also being reduced dramatically

Those are the main two changes that are really bad imo , the others aren;t too bad , but they are unneeded , and like the Finchley Rd stuff , just a pointless way to rile passengers from Tfl
 

Busaholic

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Anyone seen TFL's new consultations over bus services

Did the West London one , and while some of the changes were good , I am appalled at their idea to butcher the 140 , cutting it to Hayes , while making the limited stop x140 , only from Harrow bus station , not Harrow Weald

The 427 is also being reduced dramatically

Those are the main two changes that are really bad imo , the others aren;t too bad , but they are unneeded , and like the Finchley Rd stuff , just a pointless way to rile passengers from Tfl

Intriguingly, the frequency of the X140 and its operating hours have been omitted! Can't disagree with the proposal, though, Harrow Weald was never part of the traditional 140 and was only tacked on for operational convenience when Harrow Buses got set up.How much time saving in reality, though, from Harrow to Heathrow? Only time will tell.

The 427 seems logical to me too, given the continued existence of the 207 and 607, and assuming some passengers will shift to Crossrail

To my mind, it is the other two areas of consultation which will produce the most controversy, namely N.E. London (so-called, I'd have called it as East London as you can get myself!) and S.E. London. In the former, what has long been suspected will come about, though perhaps not in quite the precise manner predicted, is the shortening of the 25, though not at the eastern end, perhaps surprisingly: instead it gets chopped back from Oxford Circus to Holborn Circus, meaning that OC will no longer be directly gettable to by bus from somewhere like St Pauls, whereas until recently you had the choice of an 8 or a 25, both high frequency. Come to that, from the other side of St Paul's Cathedral you had the 15 or 23 to OC, again no more! The frequency of the 25 is cut too.

What seems to me to be the most ludicrous proposal here is south of the river, and has already been discussed in this forum when I think the London Borough of Greenwich spilled the beans on the highly successful and apparently incredibly well-used 180 service being taken away from Lewisham to help cover the cuts to a North Greenwich service, and for its replacement by a wholly inadequate extension to the unloved 129, at a reduced frequency. I do notice TfL have not even bothered to try to explain the 'reasoning' behind this. Viewed as a whole, for this area the proposals show hardly any increase in the number of buses allocated, whereas for West and East London you can see there will be extra buses.
 

CatfordCat

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Recently, Metrobus lost 42 buses-worth of work. London Central have now gained 40 buses-worth of work (routes 172 and 343), London General have gained 30 buses-worth of work (153 and 214) not to mention the gain of all the buses on route 15 and 115.

Anyone else think that there may be a shuffling of routes around between London Central, London General and Metrobus?

It's possible - the 355 has moved from LG Merton to LC Camberwell to Metrobus Croydon over time.

I'm assuming the 153 and 214 would run from Northumberland Park garage (which is part of LG) - 153 ran from NP under Capital Citybus, but 214 seems a long way from any current Go-Ahead garage.

As for the 172 and 343, I suppose it will depend how much space there is (at that time) within New Cross, Peckham and Camberwell.

The distance from Green Street Green to the 181 / 284, and the cost of driver time travelling all the way to / from Lewisham for change-overs must have counted against them (I guess Stagecoach will take these routes 'home' to Catford so drivers will only have a short journey up the road to Catford town centre for change-overs)

The garage space issue is a bit of an unknown with the current TFL service cuts which seem set to continue. If there isn't room for the new routes at inner London garages -

There's nothing to say Go-Ahead couldn't move some current routes out to Orpington, but there will be an increased cost because of the distance - there's nothing local they don't already operate. The 321 could go, but drivers would have to travel to / from the Foots Cray end for change-overs. And the 225 isn't much further away than the 181 / 284 are now, although presumably they would have been priced and won on the basis of buses and drivers being based at NX.

There will be a desire to keep Orpington at full capacity so that the costs of the site are met by a full complement of buses (the alternative might be to sell off / rent out part of the site, but that would limit future options) but that would have to be weighed against the cost of more 'non productive' driver time.

Unless of course additional garage space can be found somewhere in inner London, which doesn't seem all that likely at the moment.
 

MotCO

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It's possible - the 355 has moved from LG Merton to LC Camberwell to Metrobus Croydon over time.


There will be a desire to keep Orpington at full capacity so that the costs of the site are met by a full complement of buses .

A minor change could see the repatriation of the B14. I always thought that the 51 could be operated from Green Street Green instead of Bexleyheath, but then Go-Ahead went and lost it!

The 119 could return to Green Street Green from Croydon. Camberwell could take the new 172 and 343, and Metrobus Croydon could take over the 468 from Camberwell.

Sorted:lol:
 

sk688

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Intriguingly, the frequency of the X140 and its operating hours have been omitted! Can't disagree with the proposal, though, Harrow Weald was never part of the traditional 140 and was only tacked on for operational convenience when Harrow Buses got set up.How much time saving in reality, though, from Harrow to Heathrow? Only time will tell.
.

Maybe so. It's the fact that it's my local route, is why I'm so opposed changes to tj ( as I live near the Harrow Weald terminus), and its a really useful bus, due to the high frequency ( better than the 182,258,340, H12 and H18/19), along with the fast drivers, plus the fact that you can get to South West London and Heathrow easily with it. It does get overcrowded, but HD run it well, and I couldnt really see anything wrong with it, nothing that an increased frequency wouldn't fix

Also, I would suggest sending the 140 down Harrow View instead, due to the hundreds of homes being built there on the Harrow View West site, and the only route that serves it (H14), is an already overcrowded single deck route, which needs double decking imo
 
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Busaholic

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Maybe so. It's the fact that it's my local route, is why I'm so opposed changes to tj ( as I live near the Harrow Weald terminus), and its a really useful bus, due to the high frequency ( better than the 182,258,340, H12 and H18/19), along with the fast drivers, plus the fact that you can get to South West London and Heathrow easily with it. It does get overcrowded, but HD run it well, and I couldnt really see anything wrong with it, nothing that an increased frequency wouldn't fix

Also, I would suggest sending the 140 down Harrow View instead, due to the hundreds of homes being built there on the Harrow View West site, and the only route that serves it (H14), is an already overcrowded single deck route, which needs double decking imo

The old 140 was one of my favourite bus routes in its RT days - all the way from Mill Hill Broadway to Heathrow (actually, really showing my age, it was still London Airport when I first knew it:)), although only one bus out of three went beyond Hayes Station (no mention of Harlington in those days either) or, probably, one in four in peak hours when there were Northolt shorts. It was always a fast route, with younger crews and much bunching. My visits to it were only sporadic, being far from my home, but I always enjoyed them. Just glad it still exists in recognisable form and still has a good frequency. Pleased to see HD still running it too!
 

U-Bahnfreund

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Citymapper now wants to introduce a regular night bus (every Friday and Saturday night), called CM2, which runs between Aldgate East and Highbury & Islington via Shoreditch and Dalston. They want to start by the end of August or early September. They work together with the Impact Group of Tower Transit

https://medium.com/@Citymapper/cm2-night-rider-our-first-commercial-bus-route-d9d7918be899
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-serving-east-london-partygoers-a3592086.html
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/20/16002800/citymapper-bus-route-location-service
 
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telstarbox

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Citymapper (a journey planning app) are launching a trial route (zero fare to avoid having to register the service with the TC?)



http://www.wired.co.uk/article/citymapper-london-bus-cmx1

Following this trial, Citymapper are setting up a permanent nightbus 'CM2' route between Highbury and Aldgate:

You might have heard we drove buses in circles in central London a couple of months ago. Or maybe you didn’t — our route was pretty small, and we only ran a trial for a short time to figure out this whole ‘running a bus’ thing.
We’re now proud to announce we’ve been approved / licensed by TfL (Transport for London) for our first commercial bus route: CM2 - Night Rider, launching in late August (or maybe early September, you know how it is), on weekend nights (9pm to 5am), in the heart of East London.

https://medium.com/citymapper/cm2-night-rider-our-first-commercial-bus-route-d9d7918be899
 

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