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London Buses Discussion

Busaholic

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I wonder whether the 81 'exception' is due to the fact that Berkshire, alone of all English counties, lost its county status completely after Sir John Banham's report into Local Government Reorganisation in the 1990s, being replaced by unitary authorities such as Slough and Reading, so as long as the 81 was seen to be paying its way it was a case of 'let sleeping dogs lie' as so much is in Blighty.
 
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Surreyman

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Is there any concern by TfL that a single company can take too dominant a position in London, for example, if Go-Ahead had won 75% of all routes? I think at one stage TfL were trying to encourage new entrants to the market.
I seem to recall that Tfl set a maximum limit of 25% for any one company, not sure if this is route mileage, number of routes run or what?
I think the Go ahead group currently have @ 23/24%
 

galwhv69

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I seem to recall that Tfl set a maximum limit of 25% for any one company, not sure if this is route mileage, number of routes run or what?
I think the Go ahead group currently have @ 23/24%
That has been proven to be a myth. (I believe Go Ahead have 26% or something around that at the moment?)
 

Deerfold

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That has been proven to be a myth. (I believe Go Ahead have 26% or something around that at the moment?)
This may have come from the original sale of the parts of London Buses - no one purchaser was allowed to buy companies that operated more than 25%.
 

Busaholic

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I seem to recall that Tfl set a maximum limit of 25% for any one company, not sure if this is route mileage, number of routes run or what?
I think the Go ahead group currently have @ 23/24%
There may or may not be an 'official' maximum percentage, but given that the Mayor of London's main responsibility is seen to be public transport. there would be consternation if an operator was thought to be failing, or had overreached themselves, like as happened with Capital Logistics (route 60), London Easylinks (the 185 etc) and Harris Bus, so I personally doubt any one operator would ever be allowed to operate as much as 30% of scheduled mileage in normal circumstances. It would be political madness to risk otherwise, and Sadiq Khan isn't insane.
 

Deerfold

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There may or may not be an 'official' maximum percentage, but given that the Mayor of London's main responsibility is seen to be public transport. there would be consternation if an operator was thought to be failing, or had overreached themselves, like as happened with Capital Logistics (route 60), London Easylinks (the 185 etc) and Harris Bus, so I personally doubt any one operator would ever be allowed to operate as much as 30% of scheduled mileage in normal circumstances. It would be political madness to risk otherwise, and Sadiq Khan isn't insane.
However TfL may be open to legal challenge if an operator submits a bid and another who submitted a higher bid wins the tender.

So far, operators who have failed have been the smaller ones. I'm taking no responsibility for two that I liaised with for Countdown having gone belly-up.
 

Snow1964

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I seem to recall that Tfl set a maximum limit of 25% for any one company, not sure if this is route mileage, number of routes run or what?
I think the Go ahead group currently have @ 23/24%
It’s nearer 26% by PVR, but I have no idea what proportion is by contract value.

25% is often used as a threshold for competitiveness, and would probably be applied to takeovers and buyouts etc, but unlikely to apply to organic growth. Doesn’t seem to have stopped Quality Line routes at Epsom being novated to GoAhead though (as part of Epsom closure)

There are some parts of London with a very dominant operator (virtually local monopolies). The tender results on TfL website have in recent times seen few routes with one bidder, as clearly no other operator thinks it is worth bidding against these local monopolies.
 

Mikey C

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It’s nearer 26% by PVR, but I have no idea what proportion is by contract value.

25% is often used as a threshold for competitiveness, and would probably be applied to takeovers and buyouts etc, but unlikely to apply to organic growth. Doesn’t seem to have stopped Quality Line routes at Epsom being novated to GoAhead though (as part of Epsom closure)

There are some parts of London with a very dominant operator (virtually local monopolies). The tender results on TfL website have in recent times seen few routes with one bidder, as clearly no other operator thinks it is worth bidding against these local monopolies.
I'm not sure having a 25% percentage ceiling is very meaningful, as the key is how much local competition you have for each bus route tendered, as with bus garages being the main barrier to entry - you can't just easily open a garage in a new part of London, especially as a new garage for one route would be hopelessly uneconomic - it's not as if Stagecoach could ever realistically tender for the 207 or Metroline the 89.

You could have a situation where 5 operators (say Stagecoach, Arriva, Go ahead, Transdev and Metroline) all had 20% of the market, but complete dominance of the routes in "their" parts of London and no incentive to competitively tender against each other. Indeed if Tower Transit are struggling to keep routes, it might increase competition if the Westbourne Park operations were bought by say Arriva or Stagecoach, even if it took them above 25%, as it would create better competition in West London, rather than just let them lose routes to Metroline and Transdev.
 

MotCO

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Buses Magazine today reports that Stagecoach Selkent will be receiving 25 E400EVs; are these to service routes 160 and 180, or something else?
 

Snow1964

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Buses Magazine today reports that Stagecoach Selkent will be receiving 25 E400EVs; are these to service routes 160 and 180, or something else?
Yes

London Zero Emission buses update

Abellio : 34 Caetano single decks in service
Abellio : 29 BYD-ADL E400EV on order for route 63

Arriva : 13 Metrocity (4 ex-RATP) in service,
Arriva : 22 E400EV on order for route 319

Go Ahead : 64 BYD-ADL E400EV and 155 E200EV in service
Go Ahead : 17 Metrodecker (route 200), 18 E400EV (route 132) on order

HCT Group : 2 BYD-ADL E400EV in service, none on order

Metroline : 31 Metrodecker, 37 E400EV, 23 E200EV in service
Metroline : 20 Wrightbus hydrogen entering service (route 7)

RATP : 29 BYD-ADL E400EV, 36 E200EV in service
RATP : 127 E400EV on order (routes 49, 65, 125, 183, 281, 371, X140)
RATP : 68 E200EV on order (routes 235, 290, 371, 398, H9, H10)

Stagecoach : 47 BYD-ADL E400EV, 5 E200EV in service
Stagecoach : 25 E400EV on order (routes 160, 180)

Tower Transit : 37 Metrodecker entering service (routes 23, C3)


the RATP orders take their fleet to about 20% zero emission, GAL will have similar number of buses (but smaller proportion of their fleet), others quite low proportion of their fleets

.
 
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chopperman21

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Stagecoach London have today started operating the new Julia Travel/CitySightseeing London tours today using there ex Megasightseeing buses such as 19132
 

Snow1964

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Was going to post this in the thread on Heathrow Free Fare zone, (but it is locked)


The Free Travel zone is discontinued from 12th June, and need to pay for buses as normal


Heathrow free travel zone to end - 12 June 2021

Routes Affected: 105, 111, 278, 285, 350, 423, 482, 490, N9, N140 and U3

From Saturday 12 June TfL bus services will no longer be part of the Heathrow free travel zone. This is due to Heathrow suspending the scheme. From this date you will be required to pay for your bus journey using a contactless payment card, valid oyster card, one day travelcard or one day bus & tram pass.

More information on using buses around Heathrow can be found by visiting www.heathrow.com/localbuses
 
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Deerfold

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Was going to post this in the thread on Heathrow Free Fare zone, (but it is locked)


The Free Travel zone is discontinued from 12th June, and need to pay for buses as normal

That's fairly crap and doesn't look good for Heathrow's attempts to portray itself as being green (especially as it's impossible to walk in and access the airport without paying.

I hadn't noticed that they've already removed quite a few routes from the scheme, including all non-TfL routes.
 
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Snow1964

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Some recent London tender results (issued 21st May), source:

2 Oct 2021: Route 148. London United retain, but PVR 23>17
5 March 2022: Route 415. Abellio retain, PVR 9
12 March 2022: Route 549. Stagecoach > Sullivan, 1 existing single deck diesel bus
19 March 2022: Route U5. Abellio retain, with 11 new electric deckers
2 April 2022: Route 432. GoAhead > Arriva with 12 existing hybrids

148 and 415 both continue using existing new routemasters, no info yet on where the spare buses as result of PVR cut will be allocated
 
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700007

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Some recent London tender results (issued 21st May), source:
The U5 will be operated from a new depot in Dawley Road, Hayes alongside the rest of Hayes (WS) current work, as the lease for the site is due to expire later this year as I understand it.

Route 148 will be operating at a frequency of every 10 minutes in the new contract.

Route 415 will be moving from Walworth to Battersea some time around the early Autumn to allow route 63 to move in when Abellio take over in November.
 

GusB

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May I remind everyone that if you're referring to an external source, a relevant quote is required as well as a link to the source. Thanks.
 

Snow1964

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TfL have updated their tender programme. 28th May 2021

Temporary rail replacement route 733 has been allocated to vacant Tranche 781 in the 2021/2022 Tendering Programme.

A contract extension has been agreed for night only route N136, which formed part of Tranche 793, to allow for retendering with day route 436 in the forthcoming 2023/2024 Tendering Programme.

Tranche 799 has been split into Tranche 799 and Tranche 799A, to allow for a separate review of routes 383 and 384.

 

dan5324

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It’s nearer 26% by PVR, but I have no idea what proportion is by contract value.

25% is often used as a threshold for competitiveness, and would probably be applied to takeovers and buyouts etc, but unlikely to apply to organic growth. Doesn’t seem to have stopped Quality Line routes at Epsom being novated to GoAhead though (as part of Epsom closure)

There are some parts of London with a very dominant operator (virtually local monopolies). The tender results on TfL website have in recent times seen few routes with one bidder, as clearly no other operator thinks it is worth bidding against these local monopolies.

Quite. Generally as a Rough guide North London = Arriva turf. Northwest London = Metroline turf. South London = Go Ahead. East London = Stagecoach
 

MotCO

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Having reflected on this, I know that the contract for the 507 and 521 is currently out to tender, due to be announced in November. If the contract calls for new electric buses, then the existing electric ADL200s on the 507 and 521 could migrate to the 358 (and other routes, e.g. 227).

The London Omnibus Traction Society has stated on its website today that the number of electric buses required for routes 507 and 521 will be halved when the contract is renewed, with the surplus buses not going onto the 358, but on the W15. The 358 is expected to receive 'opportunity charged' Irizar IeTram buses, subject to recharging points being established at Crystal Palace and Orpington Station. This does support the theory that the 358 was too long and challenging a route for 'normal' battery buses.

In SE London Go-Ahead’s routes 132 and 358 had been re-awarded for electric buses. The 132 will get BYD/ADL E400EVs and the 358 is expected to use Irizar IeTram single-decks. In both cases, re-charging will be by overhead pantographs, the 132 only at Bexleyheath Garage, the 358 at each end of the route at Crystal Palace and Orpington Station – although that at Orpington is still subject to planning approval.

 

LUYMun

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The 358 is expected to receive 'opportunity charged' Irizar IeTram buses, subject to recharging points being established at Crystal Palace and Orpington Station. This does support the theory that the 358 was too long and challenging a route for 'normal' battery buses.
Now that's interesting - a reintroduction of the trolleybus!
 

flythetube

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That's fairly crap and doesn't look good for Heathrow's attempts to portray itself as being green (especially as it's impossible to walk in and access the airport without paying.

I hadn't noticed that they've already removed quite a few routes from the scheme, including all non-TfL routes.
Observations showed many customers (usually Airport Workers) boarding for free within the Free Fare Zone but continuing beyond the zone boundary without any attempt to touch in and pay for that portion.
 

Deerfold

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Observations showed many customers (usually Airport Workers) boarding for free within the Free Fare Zone but continuing beyond the zone boundary without any attempt to touch in and pay for that portion.
So honest travellers will be penalised rather than any enforcement against fraudulent travel?
 

londonteacher

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I didn't claim it was the end of the world.
It's more than they paid before and makes it impossible to enter the airport without paying unless you get a lift.
But, why should it be free? It also stops people who do not need to be at the airport from being at the airport.

I'm pretty sure you can also walk to T5 and then get on the free train between terminals if needed.
 

Deerfold

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But, why should it be free? It also stops people who do not need to be at the airport from being at the airport.

I'm pretty sure you can also walk to T5 and then get on the free train between terminals if needed.
This was Heathrow proving its green credentials.

Should there be a charge to enter an airport as a pedestrian?

Is it possible to walk into T5?
 

matt_world2004

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I thought the free travel zone was a condition of planning consent for removing the pedestrian access from Heathrow central.
 

johncrossley

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Is it possible to walk into T5?

I can't see why it wouldn't be legal to walk along Northern Perimeter Road and Western Perimeter Road to T5 as I'm pretty sure there's a footpath alongside the whole route. But that's a long walk from the northern side of Heathrow where you would typically get your free bus from. However you could get the shuttle bus from the T5 long stay car park. It can be used for 2 hours free parking and has a dedicated stop for those using the free pickup at the entrance to the car park on Northern Perimeter Road.

Can Compass Centre shuttle buses be used by anyone, not just staff? They run every few minutes to T5 and T2/3.
 
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