London Buses Discussion

[radamfi]

Quite a few London night routes already have a frequency of every 30 minutes although there is often more than one route available. The service cuts are clearly disappointing, but London's night service will still probably be one of the most comprehensive in the world and will still be substantially better than they were before the huge expansion of the network started around 2002. Night buses used to cost more than day buses and Day Travelcards and One Day Bus Passes were not valid.

 

[Be3G]

It's now my local night route's turn to get a frequency cutback. From 4 November the N26 will be going down from 3/5bph (weekday/end respectively) to 2/3. This is after it received a weekend enhancement from 3 to 5bph just a couple of years ago.

I suppose the weekend nighttime service on the Victoria Line will mean it's seeing a bit less use, but it's still very annoying. On weekday nights, the section of the route from the Walthamstow Bell to Chingford station is entirely unduplicated with no other night services for some distance – this part of the route is a bit of an ‘island’ of land between reservoirs to the west and forest to the east.

Historic timetables here show it used to be 3bph every night as far back as that site's records go in 2002. Prior to the N26 this corridor was served by the N38, which I assume was more frequent. Before that it was the N96 which apparently ran once an hour. So could this be the lowest weekday night bus frequency Chingford's had for about twenty years?

 

[Bungle965]

Has there been any indications as to how well the Citymapper night bus route is doing?
Sam

 

[Deerfold]

Has there been any indications as to how well the Citymapper night bus route is doing?
Sam

No, but they're launching their next bus route - BB1, run by Black Cabs between Highbury and Islington and Waterloo between 0700 and 1000, returning between 1700 and 2000 at £3 a journey.

https://medium.com/citymapper/project-black-bus-4a838ddf7c06

 

[telstarbox]

What is it with "disruptive" tech companies reinventing the bus every 6 months?

 

[skyhigh]

Interestingly, Hertfordshire County Council put this in the service change news:
"CM81 - NEW Demand-Responsive Service within the St Albans area (approximate boundary: Sandridge – Jersey Farm – Acrewood Way – London Colney – Napsbury Park – A414 – Bedmond Lane – A4147 – Batchwood Hall – New Greens). Citymapper app required to book travel which will be available between any points in the zone 0700-2300 Daily."

So it looks like Citymapper are aiming to do this outside of London. (Although the start date was 06/11/2017, this has now been indefinitely postponed).

 

[Be3G]

Well, this is intriguing: all mention of the N26 frequency reduction I was moaning about a couple of weeks ago seems to have disappeared. When I checked TfL's service changes document last week it said the change had been postponed until December, but now there's no entry for it at all. I wonder what happened?

 

[plcd1]

Well, this is intriguing: all mention of the N26 frequency reduction I was moaning about a couple of weeks ago seems to have disappeared. When I checked TfL's service changes document last week it said the change had been postponed until December, but now there's no entry for it at all. I wonder what happened?

I think a lot of changes are in a state of flux because of the pressures to prepare and agree schedule changes and contract price changes. There are limited resources in all of the organisations to be able to handle this volume of change. There is then all the subsequent activity about changing driver rosters, union agreement, posting of new timetables etc. Not wanting to overstress any individual stage but a lot has to happen to get these things through the "sausage machine". I understand some companies that had large volumes of night work have had issues with drivers who are not happy at having their (family) lives turned upside down and being forced on to day work for example. There are also probable issues about garage space in some places because having large volumes of buses out at night kept things manageable. Now far more buses are parked up overnight.

Anyway I expect we have got 1, and possibly 2, more year(s) of this volume of service cuts to work their way through. I'm waiting for the point where TfL decide to scrap an entire route to save money (not counting the 9xx former Mobility routes which are all being axed slowly but surely. 965 is next).

 

[nesw]

It should take place from 2 December with a few additional early trips towards Waterloo on the 26.

 

[ashworth]

I'm very surprised about some of those weekday night bus cuts! Two services are being cut from every 15 minutes to very 30! It really is massive.

Yes, I was quite surprised when I was visiting London a few weeks ago to find that the N5 now only runs every 30 minutes. With the introduction of the night tube I can understand the frequency of every 10 minutes at weekends to be reduced, but it’s a bit drastic to cut it from every 15 minutes to every 30 minutes during the week when there is no tube. Perhaps every 20 minutes would have been a good compromise. When visiting friends and travelling between Hampstead and Edgware I will now have to think carefully about the timetable rather than just turn up and go. The first few buses between 1am and 2pm out of London to Edgware used to be so busy even when they were every 15 minutes. However, always very few passengers travelling into London during that time.

The luxury of 24 hour buses. Where I live in Nottinghamshire we have no buses after 6pm and none on Sundays or Bank Holidays.

 

[Busaholic]

The 'Oxford Street West consultation' is now open for comments, for those who either wish to vent their spleen or, alternatively, to congratulate TfL on their far-sighted vision. Whichever it is, I suspect it will make very little difference, as every detail has been planned to the nth degree, and other than the odd crossing of a t it will be implemented in full. On the bus side, Oxford Street will be entirely devoid of buses between Baker Street and Oxford Circus 24 hours a day, and even the old bus stands in places like Holles Street will go. The only east-west bus traffic in the vicinity of the area will be along Wigmore Street and Henrietta Place (two-way) on the 139 and 390 with a grand total of 18 bph in the peak. I'm in despair at some of the changes, but the most ludicrous to my mind is to combine the 10 and the 23 by joining them at Marble Arch, in the process cutting off the eastern sections of each. So you'll be able to make that useful journey from Hammersmith to Ladbroke Grove via Marble Arch, rather than the more direct route of the 295. Marble Arch will become a terminus for many more routes (or at least the surrounding streets will if they can find the space. RIP Central London buses.

 

[Antman]

The 'Oxford Street West consultation' is now open for comments, for those who either wish to vent their spleen or, alternatively, to congratulate TfL on their far-sighted vision. Whichever it is, I suspect it will make very little difference, as every detail has been planned to the nth degree, and other than the odd crossing of a t it will be implemented in full. On the bus side, Oxford Street will be entirely devoid of buses between Baker Street and Oxford Circus 24 hours a day, and even the old bus stands in places like Holles Street will go. The only east-west bus traffic in the vicinity of the area will be along Wigmore Street and Henrietta Place (two-way) on the 139 and 390 with a grand total of 18 bph in the peak. I'm in despair at some of the changes, but the most ludicrous to my mind is to combine the 10 and the 23 by joining them at Marble Arch, in the process cutting off the eastern sections of each. So you'll be able to make that useful journey from Hammersmith to Ladbroke Grove via Marble Arch, rather than the more direct route of the 295. Marble Arch will become a terminus for many more routes (or at least the surrounding streets will if they can find the space. RIP Central London buses.

Hardly the end of the world, in many capital cities buses play a relatively small role in the overall transport network.

 

[Busaholic]

Hardly the end of the world, in many capital cities buses play a relatively small role in the overall transport network.

If a thread is ever started comparing the role of buses in different capital cities then my name will be absent from it, as I have little knowledge of the subject with the possible exception of Paris. I do have some knowledge of London bus routes since their inception, and have seen waxing and waning (mainly the latter) in my own personal experience over a long time. The reason why London has more buses, bus routes, passengers, passenger miles, etc etc than anywhere else on Earth is partly its size and topography but also the undeniable fact that other forms of reasonably costed public transport are absent from swathes of the Greater London area, and this seems likely to be the case for the foreseeable future. Even if you ignore the level of train and tube fares anyone with a map can see that some London areas have very poor rail connections, while the one isolated outer London tram 'network' will probably remain an anomaly to the powers-that-be. That is the context in which I made my remarks: I'm convinced a defeatist attitude rules within the London Assembly and TfL, the latter of which admits that cycling only makes up 2% of journeys made in London, yet everything must be done to prioritise this tiny minority.

 

[radamfi]

other forms of reasonably costed public transport are absent from swathes of the Greater London area, and this seems likely to be the case for the foreseeable future.

But most of the severe cuts in bus service are in central London or associated with rail improvements, for example Crossrail or night service on the Overground. In Outer London, there will still be a very frequent and comprehensive network even by international standards.

TfL, the latter of which admits that cycling only makes up 2% of journeys made in London, yet everything must be done to prioritise this tiny minority.

The reason why it is only 2% is because current provision is extremely poor! Cycling usage in the UK is particularly low compared to some other European countries because most people are scared to do it because cyclists are forced to use busy roads in most cases and when specific provision is made, it is often of very poor quality and fails to make cycling attractive.

 

[Andyh82]

I'm surprised the east/west link is only going to be 18 buses per hour, rather than sending the 10 that way as well. I'm also surprised they are getting rid of the Oxford Circus bus stands, which I wouldn't have thought anyone really had a problem with.

 

[Mikey C]

Off the top of my head, London has more buses than European style cities as
a) it's bigger
b) has no trams in the centre (and indeed most of central London has never had trams)
c) has narrower roads (making trams difficult anyway) and making cycling less attractive
d) has more people commuting in from outside the city, hence has to deal with more people travelling around ?
e) people like buses more, the chance of a direct route to work, sitting upstairs with the view etc

 

[Antman]

Off the top of my head, London has more buses than European style cities as
a) it's bigger
b) has no trams in the centre (and indeed most of central London has never had trams)
c) has narrower roads (making trams difficult anyway) and making cycling less attractive
d) has more people commuting in from outside the city, hence has to deal with more people travelling around ?
e) people like buses more, the chance of a direct route to work, sitting upstairs with the view etc

I think b is the most significant reason.

 

[radamfi]

e) people like buses more, the chance of a direct route to work, sitting upstairs with the view etc

Well, buses have a very low status in Britain compared to other countries. It might be a little different in London because of the longer use of the open platform and more recently because of the enhancement of the bus network over the last 20 years or so.

I suspect, however, bus use is highly inflated due to the differential fare structure, making long bus journeys cheaper than the equivalent by rail/Tube. In particular, it makes changing between bus and rail/Tube unattractive. This has been further entrenched by the widening of the price difference between single Tube trips and Travelcards, and more recently, the Hopper bus fare.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed. I can categorically say that over the course of the last five years or so I've increasingly switched away from rail-based modes of transport to buses in London because of the ever-widening price disparity.

 

[Antman]

Indeed. I can categorically say that over the course of the last five years or so I've increasingly switched away from rail-based modes of transport to buses in London because of the ever-widening price disparity.

Matched only by the ever widening journey time disparity which is why I've moved in the opposite direction. Bus journeys are fine if you've got the time but if you just want to get somewhere in a hurry I'd recommend rail every time.

 

[Busaholic]

Matched only by the ever widening journey time disparity which is why I've moved in the opposite direction. Bus journeys are fine if you've got the time but if you just want to get somewhere in a hurry I'd recommend rail every time.

Not too often I agree with you, but I regret to say I do on this occasion. The disparity is particularly marked in my case as all bus travel is free for me whereas I pay top Oyster whack for everything else.

 

[Mikey C]

The price disparity is indeed a factor, but the fact I can sit on the top deck and look out of the window is definitely also a plus point over being in a tube 100ft below the surface!

 

[Via Bank]

Off the top of my head, London has more buses than European style cities as
a) it's bigger
b) has no trams in the centre (and indeed most of central London has never had trams)
c) has narrower roads (making trams difficult anyway) and making cycling less attractive
d) has more people commuting in from outside the city, hence has to deal with more people travelling around ?
e) people like buses more, the chance of a direct route to work, sitting upstairs with the view etc

I think you’ve got it mostly on the head, but a large amount of it is policy.

I don’t buy the “narrow streets” thing. Plenty of European cities have historical centres with similarly narrow streets, but they still see tram routes, and much more utility cycling than we tend to have here.

The difference is that these historical centres (in fact most town centres, and residential areas) on the continent are less likely to be permeable to private motor traffic. It’s not necessarily that there’s more space. It’s that the space is allocated differently.

London is quite old-fashioned in how much of it is accessible by car as a through route. In fact I’d say it’s almost unique as a capital city in north western Europe (with the exception of most of Paris, maybe.) It is a chronically car-sick city, which is odd given how many people in London don’t have a car.

So maybe the size of the bus network has something to do with this. If space is allocated for the maximum volume of cars with little physical protection for walking and cycling, making both of these scary and/or inconvenient… maybe people think the best way to “beat” traffic is to join it, in a bus.

 

[Be3G]

It should take place from 2 December with a few additional early trips towards Waterloo on the 26.

You are indeed correct, the N26 reduction has now reappeared in TfL's service changes document.

--

I've also been perusing the londonbusroutes.net planned service changes page. I see there's now an entry for the 327, which upon contract renewal next year will be losing its evening service entirely. I admit that this is probably a fairly sensible route to lop an evening service off, as the roads it serves are no more than about 600m (but mostly less) walking distance from other frequent bus services and the few times I've used it in the evenings it has been very quiet. It does make me nervous though, as it means PVR=1 routes are now no longer safe from being reduced to PVR=0 at certain times…

I'm also aghast to see the the 491 is being reduced from 4bph to 3bph at the same time. Whenever I use this bus during the day it is somewhere on the scale between busy and packed. There's a reason it was given 4bph back in 2008!!

 

[route101]

Has there ever been a Bus route in London thats gone from West to East or North to South say croydon to tottenham or Hammersmith int Essex , i guess they would be too long !

 

[Deerfold]

Has there ever been a Bus route in London thats gone from West to East or North to South say croydon to tottenham or Hammersmith int Essex , i guess they would be too long !

There used to be many of them. Most have now been split. You may want to browse the 1967 timetables here.

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/List_of_RedBook_19670717_timetables.htm

The 1 was Willesden to Bromley for a start...

 

[Deerfold]

Then there were Green Line Buses/Coaches...

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/List_of_Green_Line_1953No1_timetables.htm

 

[telstarbox]

At least we don't use 12-hour clocks in timetables any more!

 

[Statto]

Many never of those services operated as a through route though, like the 12 which looks like to have operated in 3 sections Harlesden-Peckham, Oxford Circus-South Norwood & Peckham South Croydon.

 

[Busaholic]

There used to be many of them. Most have now been split. You may want to browse the 1967 timetables here.

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/List_of_RedBook_19670717_timetables.htm

The 1 was Willesden to Bromley for a start...

Not the best example, because Willesden was only reached at the weekends and Bromley on Monday to Fridays!

Better examples would be the Sunday 133 from South Croydon Garage to Hendon Central Station (via East Finchley, so hardly direct!) which was worked as a through route and was definitely the longest such in the last fifty years or so: I travelled the length of it once and it even stretched my bus enthusiasm to straining point. A bit more recently, the 2B worked from Finchley through to Crystal Palace on a Sunday too.