London Euston Blockades August-September 2018

[island]

I’m sure there’s going to turn out to have been a thread on this but I can’t find one.

During the upcoming weekend blockades at Euston, what’s stopping London Overground running e.g. Harrow & Wealdstone to Watford Junction?

 

[The Planner]

Where are people going to go once they get to Harrow? Bakerloo is shut and I expect they don't want the stock trapped for that long.

 

[AndrewE]

Reading the title I was worried for a moment there, but I now see that you really meant "Euston blockades." Lots of the WCML still running, by the look of it...

 

[59CosG95]

The blockades are to renew North Wembley Junction (which is on the AC lines); however, I think the DC lines are running no trains as work might be going on at Euston simultaneously (perhaps for HS2), in common with the "no trains into Euston" rule.
Somehow the Bakerloo is also affected.

 

[The Planner]

DC lines are too close to keep open whilst the Wembley North work is being carried out.

 

[59CosG95]

DC lines are too close to keep open whilst the Wembley North work is being carried out.

Ahh, that's understandable.

 

[greyman42]

Does it affect the sleepers?

 

[island]

Yes, they’re running to/from Kings Cross.

 

[Mag_seven]

The blockades are to renew North Wembley Junction (which is on the AC lines)

Is it a straightforward renewal or are there any enhancements?

 

[urbophile]

What are the dates? The Network Rail site only mentions the August bank holiday.

 

[matt]

What are the dates? The Network Rail site only mentions the August bank holiday.

Next 3 weekends plus the bank holiday Monday

 

[The Planner]

Is it a straightforward renewal or are there any enhancements?

Renewal only.

 

[Mugby]

Virgin seem to have lost out big time while this is going on, obviously they have to run some semblance of a service but what they are left with doesn't look very appealing:

The Liverpool service starts at Milton Keynes.
No service from London to Chester.
Manchester via Crewe starts at Milton Keynes.
Line between Stockport and Manchester closed on Sunday 26th.
Line through Coventry closed, bus service between Rugby and Birmingham International.
Manchester via Stoke starts at Bhm International so Virgin are operating on a route they don't normally serve.

I can imagine some of these carrying a lot of fresh air, for example Manchester to Milton Keynes calling only at Crewe with few (if any) onward connections at MKC.

The alternatives advised for Manchester are Kings Cross to Leeds and change onto TPE - a long way round and good luck with TPE!
St. Pancras to Sheffield and change onto South TPE or EMT Liverpool - but STP to SHF service is halved due to the Derby blockade so those which run will carry double the usual loads.

What happened to running double Voyagers on the Chiltern line at times like this?

 

[DPQ]

What happened to running double Voyagers on the Chiltern line at times like this?

Euston is also closed, so nowhere for these to go. I accept it is poor, however with HS2 construction this will likely happen more frequently.

 

[Lozzy0603]

How far north does the OHLE segment extend from Wembley? Eg how far north do they need to isolate the power for that section?
Just wondering why they couldn't have run 350s to Watford and reversed at the junction just to the south? That would have given customers a chance to get to St Albans Branch, Watford Met and Tfl busses.

 

[DanTrain]

The alternatives advised for Manchester are Kings Cross to Leeds and change onto TPE - a long way round and good luck with TPE!
St. Pancras to Sheffield and change onto South TPE or EMT Liverpool - but STP to SHF service is halved due to the Derby blockade so those which run will carry double the usual loads.

What happened to running double Voyagers on the Chiltern line at times like this?

Sounds like a good time for EMT to run some 10 car Meridians! Although if the line is closed at Stockport, where is the Sheffield - Manchester stuff going, is it all going via Marple?

 

[Dstock7080]

Bakerloo are operating a Saturday service on entire line on BH Monday

 

[causton]

How far north does the OHLE segment extend from Wembley? Eg how far north do they need to isolate the power for that section?
Just wondering why they couldn't have run 350s to Watford and reversed at the junction just to the south? That would have given customers a chance to get to St Albans Branch, Watford Met and Tfl busses.

Whenever any work has been done on the West Coast in the last few years, they have turned at Hemel. There is a well-rehearsed plan which is used.

Watford Junction has capacity issues when any train arrives, let alone when terminating trains arrive full of people for London. Hemel has a separate staircase which takes people straight to the organised queuing system.
Watford Junction has no place to turn round buses (the bus station is at capacity on rail replacement weekends with just the buses stopping for a few minutes and the normal service buses) Hemel has a big car park that is partially cordoned off to allow the buses to be organised - there is no similar space at Watford (the car park is under a low bridge and the back entrance would not be accessible for a bus)

There are probably more things I can't think of right now.

As someone who needs to get to Watford over the next three weekends, I wish the trains could run there too but it just isn't practical.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Very, very poor attempt at a service (in my opinion) from Virgin. I don't know the precise limits of the possession but the 'proper' Glasgow to London trains are only running to Preston, where there is a lengthy wait for a train to Milton Keynes via Birmingham. Why could these trains not have run to somewhere like Milton Keynes? I doubt the line is so congested as to have required these services to cut short in Lancashire.

To give some context, the following stations are particularly helpful for this sort of problem:

- Leighton Buzzard for access to Luton.
- Bletchley for access to the Bedford line.
- Tring for Amersham, Aylesbury, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Hemel Hempstead for access to St Albans, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Northampton for access to Wellingborough.
- Rugby for access to Kettering.

So considering that Hemel Hempstead is receiving a half-hourly service from Northampton only, there is no reason why Virgin could not have operated to Tring at least half-hourly with buses to Edgware and the Northern line to Euston. There is then the fact you've got at least half-hourly possibility into Bletchley Platform 5 using the Relief lines from Denbigh Hall.

London Midland also, I assume, will not be using anywhere near as many drivers as normal and surely could have been offered some money as part of the Network Rail payment system for something longer than 48 hours as a possession to run extra services to Bedford (e.g. half-hourly with one service being a 'fast' one)? Or even the hiring of other traction for shuttle services?

So if you can run 2tph off Tring, 2tph off Bletchley and at least 2tph off Milton Keynes (P4 and P5 reversals) then there is no reason why you couldn't manage the hourly Scotland direct, hourly Scotland via Brum, hourly Manchester via Crewe, hourly Manchester via Stoke, hourly Liverpool, hourly Birmingham extra... You might even be able to squeeze in another one or two trains if desperate.

Definitely, however, a missed trick with the crap timetable they've put up.

 

[Mugby]

Sounds like a good time for EMT to run some 10 car Meridians! Although if the line is closed at Stockport, where is the Sheffield - Manchester stuff going, is it all going via Marple?

Yes I believe so, normal service operating and journey times approximately the same.

 

[Jimini]

What happened to running double Voyagers on the Chiltern line at times like this?

As said before, Euston is closed, but I asked this a while back during the previous blockade and according to our resident drivers on here, they don't sign that route any more so it's a non-starter, even into an alternative terminus. Disappointing really!

 

[The Planner]

Very, very poor attempt at a service (in my opinion) from Virgin. I don't know the precise limits of the possession but the 'proper' Glasgow to London trains are only running to Preston, where there is a lengthy wait for a train to Milton Keynes via Birmingham. Why could these trains not have run to somewhere like Milton Keynes? I doubt the line is so congested as to have required these services to cut short in Lancashire.

To give some context, the following stations are particularly helpful for this sort of problem:

- Leighton Buzzard for access to Luton.
- Bletchley for access to the Bedford line.
- Tring for Amersham, Aylesbury, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Hemel Hempstead for access to St Albans, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Northampton for access to Wellingborough.
- Rugby for access to Kettering.

So considering that Hemel Hempstead is receiving a half-hourly service from Northampton only, there is no reason why Virgin could not have operated to Tring at least half-hourly with buses to Edgware and the Northern line to Euston. There is then the fact you've got at least half-hourly possibility into Bletchley Platform 5 using the Relief lines from Denbigh Hall.

London Midland also, I assume, will not be using anywhere near as many drivers as normal and surely could have been offered some money as part of the Network Rail payment system for something longer than 48 hours as a possession to run extra services to Bedford (e.g. half-hourly with one service being a 'fast' one)? Or even the hiring of other traction for shuttle services?

So if you can run 2tph off Tring, 2tph off Bletchley and at least 2tph off Milton Keynes (P4 and P5 reversals) then there is no reason why you couldn't manage the hourly Scotland direct, hourly Scotland via Brum, hourly Manchester via Crewe, hourly Manchester via Stoke, hourly Liverpool, hourly Birmingham extra... You might even be able to squeeze in another one or two trains if desperate.

Definitely, however, a missed trick with the crap timetable they've put up.

Are all those stations geared up for a load of trains emptying out and filling up again? I suggest Tring certainly isnt and how do you turn trains back north?.MK can only deal with a certain amount of coaches and people. Coaches are running from Rugby to Kettering.

The idea is to keep people on trains and not buses which is why people have been routed via Birmingham and Leeds for alternative routes.

 

[najaB]

Does it affect the sleepers?

Is it bad that my first thought was 'Of course, probably the ballast too.'? Keeping to topic, is it just a like-for-like renewal or are there any improvements included?

 

[Mag_seven]

This is what BR did when faced with a similar closure in October 1991. (Youtube video not mine)

(yes I know they can't use St Pancras anymore but you get the jist)

Work on the West Coast Main Line upgrade resulted in weekend diversion of trains to St Pancras. Class 47 s hauled trains complete with their class 87 locomotives between Nuneaton and Bedford where they could run under the wires to St Pancras.

 

[_toommm_]

Sounds like a good time for EMT to run some 10 car Meridians! Although if the line is closed at Stockport, where is the Sheffield - Manchester stuff going, is it all going via Marple?

Via Romiley and New Mills Central - the same way the Northern stoppers go at the moment - it's a fairly well used diversion so I can't foresee any problems with route knowledge.

 

[Mugby]

Are all those stations geared up for a load of trains emptying out and filling up again? I suggest Tring certainly isnt and how do you turn trains back north?.MK can only deal with a certain amount of coaches and people. Coaches are running from Rugby to Kettering.

That's interesting, so there are coaches from Rugby to Birmingham International and Kettering. The latter has only one service north per hour which is a Nottingham terminator and two services south per hour, one of which is the Corby starter.

 

[Mugby]

I just spotted something on Virgin's site which is not immediately obvious in the blockade notes.

On the alternative routes map it states that the LNER option for Manchester via Leeds and Scotland via Newcastle is not available on Saturday 25th.
The best offer for Scotland is Marylebone - Moor Street and a ten minute walk with whatever luggage you may have, to New Street for onward connections.
On days when the LNER option can be used, they offer Kings Cross - Leeds and the Northern service via Settle to Carlisle!

 

[causton]

Very, very poor attempt at a service (in my opinion) from Virgin. I don't know the precise limits of the possession but the 'proper' Glasgow to London trains are only running to Preston, where there is a lengthy wait for a train to Milton Keynes via Birmingham. Why could these trains not have run to somewhere like Milton Keynes? I doubt the line is so congested as to have required these services to cut short in Lancashire.

To give some context, the following stations are particularly helpful for this sort of problem:

- Leighton Buzzard for access to Luton.
- Bletchley for access to the Bedford line.
- Tring for Amersham, Aylesbury, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Hemel Hempstead for access to St Albans, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Northampton for access to Wellingborough.
- Rugby for access to Kettering.

So considering that Hemel Hempstead is receiving a half-hourly service from Northampton only, there is no reason why Virgin could not have operated to Tring at least half-hourly with buses to Edgware and the Northern line to Euston. There is then the fact you've got at least half-hourly possibility into Bletchley Platform 5 using the Relief lines from Denbigh Hall.

London Midland also, I assume, will not be using anywhere near as many drivers as normal and surely could have been offered some money as part of the Network Rail payment system for something longer than 48 hours as a possession to run extra services to Bedford (e.g. half-hourly with one service being a 'fast' one)? Or even the hiring of other traction for shuttle services?

So if you can run 2tph off Tring, 2tph off Bletchley and at least 2tph off Milton Keynes (P4 and P5 reversals) then there is no reason why you couldn't manage the hourly Scotland direct, hourly Scotland via Brum, hourly Manchester via Crewe, hourly Manchester via Stoke, hourly Liverpool, hourly Birmingham extra... You might even be able to squeeze in another one or two trains if desperate.

Definitely, however, a missed trick with the crap timetable they've put up.

So when a Virgin train terminates at Tring (before we even think about the issues with dispatch, shunting arrangements, etc) at a station with no lifts, no real facilities such as a big car park at Hemel (for buses to park up in at least, as it is mostly double decked) or station facilities, how will it cope with the passenger numbers? (It struggles with a LNR train emptying passengers and that's just people that live in Tring!)

Okay we will send people from Hemel to St Albans, with Thameslink struggling to cope with its own passengers and a 2tph fast service on Saturdays under the contingency timetable.

And so on...

The idea is to get people using alternative train routes from further north. If the train goes to Tring they will go there then complain they have to get a bus. Rather if they get to Birmingham and are told 'Go to Moor Street' then they would have a better journey going via Chiltern.

Numbers of people travelling south of MK die off, as they either do not travel, or drive to another station. Getting people bussed all sorts of different places and all the contigency plans that have to be made up (okay what happens if they get to Edgware and the Northern line is suspended? Now you have to send people to another Tube line maybe. Who will deal with the extra crowds there? Where will the buses park up then without falling foul of the TfL regulations? Where will the coach drivers take their breaks if they had PNB facilities at Stanmore) when there is a network to take them to London via an alternative route with a change or two with already set up contingency plans, control rooms, staff, trains etc, is much more sensible when lots of people take the hint and avoid/reschedule their travel.

 

[gordonthemoron]

what's the car parking like at Stanmore? Incase I need to visit London over the next 3 weekends, alternatively I could drive to Bedford and get Thameslink

 

[DarloRich]

where to start with this silliness?

Very, very poor attempt at a service (in my opinion) from Virgin. I don't know the precise limits of the possession but the 'proper' Glasgow to London trains are only running to Preston, where there is a lengthy wait for a train to Milton Keynes via Birmingham. Why could these trains not have run to somewhere like Milton Keynes? I doubt the line is so congested as to have required these services to cut short in Lancashire.

To give some context, the following stations are particularly helpful for this sort of problem:

- Leighton Buzzard for access to Luton.
- Bletchley for access to the Bedford line.
- Tring for Amersham, Aylesbury, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Hemel Hempstead for access to St Albans, Stanmore or Edgware.
- Northampton for access to Wellingborough.
- Rugby for access to Kettering.

the idea is to keep people on the train not give them loads of confusing options for buses. passenger surveys show people don't want to be bused unless absolutely necessary and when they do they want it to be as easy as possible.

So considering that Hemel Hempstead is receiving a half-hourly service from Northampton only, there is no reason why Virgin could not have operated to Tring at least half-hourly with buses to Edgware and the Northern line to Euston. There is then the fact you've got at least half-hourly possibility into Bletchley Platform 5 using the Relief lines from Denbigh Hall.

London Midland also, I assume, will not be using anywhere near as many drivers as normal and surely could have been offered some money as part of the Network Rail payment system for something longer than 48 hours as a possession to run extra services to Bedford (e.g. half-hourly with one service being a 'fast' one)? Or even the hiring of other traction for shuttle services?

Tring? Really? Ever been to Tring? No lifts, no space of buses, poor access, no facilities and in the middle of nowhere. I am not even sure trains can reverse there or how the shunting arrangements would work if they cant.

Much as i would love the Marston Vale line to be used for this kind of thing the infrastructure doesn't really allow it. If you are using platform 5 at Beltchley ( and blocking the entrance to the carriage sidings) we are going to have to use platform 6 for your Marston Vale super shuttle. That means no lift access and one narrow staircase down to a short platform with no cover and no facilities. At Bedford we run into platform 1a. This is a short bay. It wont take anything more than 2 x 150. We can run into P1 but this blocks up the main line.

Moving the vale shuttle onto P6 at Blethcley limits you to 6 vehicles. Knock 2 off for locos as your shuttle would have to run T&T and you are down to 4. knock off another vehicle for a brake carriage and you are down to 3. That means none stop to Bedford as none of the platforms on the vale can take that length. hang on, it cant fit into the bay at Bedford either! it is starting to look like your super shuttle isnt an option. Lets look at DMU option instead.

Services on the Vale are run by 1 x 153 and 1 x 150. They wont be able to cope. LM have limited options and even if we ran 2 x 150 & 2x153 they wont cope. They also couldn't stop anywhere en route or fit into the bay at Bedford. If you want to have extra stock then where is it going to come from? Who is going to drive it and where is it going to live for the duration?

Perhaps that is why this option was rejected.

So if you can run 2tph off Tring, 2tph off Bletchley and at least 2tph off Milton Keynes (P4 and P5 reversals) then there is no reason why you couldn't manage the hourly Scotland direct, hourly Scotland via Brum, hourly Manchester via Crewe, hourly Manchester via Stoke, hourly Liverpool, hourly Birmingham extra... You might even be able to squeeze in another one or two trains if desperate.

Definitely, however, a missed trick with the crap timetable they've put up.

dear me. i am not sure your idea is practical. You have a desire to drop people off seemingly at random at stations in Buckinghamshire