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London Euston - London Overground Platforms

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SpacePhoenix

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Do the platforms used by LO in Euston have overhead? If they do is there a technical reason why they use 3rd rail into Euston?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Do the platforms used by LO in Euston have overhead?

Yes. They use platform 9, which is usable by LM as well if necessary (though almost never is as there isn't really any spare capacity). They changed from 10 a few years ago for some reason though I don't quite know why, perhaps 9 doesn't fit 2x350 or something.

If they do is there a technical reason why they use 3rd rail into Euston?

I guess because they always have done, and the changeover is an unnecessary faff/point of unreliability because the third rail is already there (and has been since long before the OHLE was).

You do see LO units stabled in OHLE-only sidings in Euston in the evenings.
 

thecrofter

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Do the platforms used by LO in Euston have overhead? If they do is there a technical reason why they use 3rd rail into Euston?

Platforms 9 & 10 are the only ones to have both OLE and Third Rail. Enabling works for HS2 may see the demise of DC into Euston if the method of traction supply changeover (dynamic) can be realised. There is currently no convenient static place to make an AC/DC changeover
 

janahan

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I thought the Class 378 CapitalStars are able to do the switchover dynamically. They certainly do it in the Wormwood Scrubs area on the West London Line. (Southern for some reason stop their trains)

Do they need special dispersion to switch dynamically as opposed to statically in certain areas?

I remember in the old days of BR/Silverlink, there were often cases where the 313s would switch to and from AC/DC whilst on the move on approach to Euston.
 

PeterC

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Why? - the third rail was there first. At the time trains also ran through to Broad Street so NLL and DC lines needed a common system which is why it kept the third rail when OHLE was introduced to the WCML.

OHLE came later on the North London Line, driven partly by the desire to run electric hauled freights from Stratford and Thamesside.
 

swt_passenger

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All a bit academic, because it is almost certain to change somehow during the Euston rebuild for HS2. If service groups keep getting moved around the station is it likely that they'll keep altering the DC infrastructure to match, or will it be easier to change to AC somewhere on the approach?
 

edwin_m

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Why? - the third rail was there first. At the time trains also ran through to Broad Street so NLL and DC lines needed a common system which is why it kept the third rail when OHLE was introduced to the WCML.

OHLE came later on the North London Line, driven partly by the desire to run electric hauled freights from Stratford and Thamesside.

At the time of WCML electrification there were no dual-system units in the fleet, and the 501 units working the Euston-Watford and NLL at the time were only about 10 years old. So it's not surprising the third rail wasn't replaced at that time, especially as some of it would have had to be kept for use by the Bakerloo line. It's rather more surprising that third rail wasn't removed on the approach to Euston sometime after the 313s appeared on the routes, in the period when much of the NLL was converted to 25kV.

I suspect the ORR policy on third rail it will make it difficult to justify keeping it into Euston when all the trains using it have dual-system capability and mthe cost of providing a changeover would be small (unless there are tunnel clearance problems). North of Queens Park there is still the Underground to consider, and it may be that the Bakerloo is eventually extended back to Watford with exclusive use of the DC lines (except for the extended Metropolitan at the north end). The DC lines stations between Queens Park and Euston are both close to Tube alternatives so might be closed without causing too much inconvenience.
 

HSTEd

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I believe it was kept at the time of the WCRM-era reconstruction to enable DC only units to substitute for 313s as required.

I imagine it will probably dissapear during the HS2 reconstruction - assuming we get a large scale reconstruction of the entire station. Otherwise it might not be worth the hassle to get rid of it, with all the clearance works likely required to provide a dedicated changeover point north of the throat.
 

traji00

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Perhaps by the time the 710s arrive OHLE could be extended to South Hampstead in preparation for HS2/ any diversion.


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Ianno87

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Eurostar sets did it at speed zipping through Dollands Moor.

But not while running steeply downhill into a terminal station, with a high likelihood of SPADing a signal if a route is not available into the platform whilst the driver is distracted changing DC to AC.
 

edwin_m

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The most logical place operationally would be Kilburn High Road where there is a crossover to return towards Queens Park if AC isn't available or a particular unit doesn't make the switch. It also means that if anything goes wrong it won't be blocking one of the five tracks (to reduce to four with HS2 construction) used by all the trains into and out of Euston. However this would involve bringing the OLE through the two single-bore South Hamspstead Tunnels.
 

NSE

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Didn't they have something like 3 508's with Silverlink. Meaning they'd still have those 3 units running 3rd rail the whole way into Euston
 

swt_passenger

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You do see Overground sets stabled in platforms 1, 2 & 3 on occasion. Not sure why.

The significantly increased numbers of units used by LO, and the lengthening to 5 car, have required a number of units to be out berthed away from the original depots and stabling locations. It's just a matter of the space being suitable, and I dare say it removes a few ECS moves as a bonus.

In fact, thinking about this some more, (although I cannot a link to the actual track access stuff from a few years ago), I think it was explained that the limited time period between end of service and start of the following days service meant that it was impossible to run all the NLL/WLL/DC units back to Willesden, and back out to the extremities of the network the next morning - there would be too many trains queuing at certain bottlenecks.
 
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Ianno87

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The most logical place operationally would be Kilburn High Road where there is a crossover to return towards Queens Park if AC isn't available or a particular unit doesn't make the switch. It also means that if anything goes wrong it won't be blocking one of the five tracks (to reduce to four with HS2 construction) used by all the trains into and out of Euston. However this would involve bringing the OLE through the two single-bore South Hamspstead Tunnels.

I believe the clearances in both bores at South Hampstead is *extremely* limited - not sure if even conductor bar fits without a substantial re-engineering of the tunnel.
 

87015

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The significantly increased numbers of units used by LO, and the lengthening to 5 car, have required a number of units to be out berthed away from the original depots and stabling locations. It's just a matter of the space being suitable, and I dare say it removes a few ECS moves as a bonus.

In fact, thinking about this some more, (although I cannot a link to the actual track access stuff from a few years ago), I think it was explained that the limited time period between end of service and start of the following days service meant that it was impossible to run all the NLL/WLL/DC units back to Willesden, and back out to the extremities of the network the next morning - there would be too many trains queuing at certain bottlenecks.

5 car program massively reduced Euston stabling, most off to Wembley Yard now, only 3x378 at Euston.

DC comes out for HS2 - already out of AC platforms at various times in the week though.
 

swt_passenger

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5 car program massively reduced Euston stabling, most off to Wembley Yard now, only 3x378 at Euston.

Yes of course, but I was aiming to remember the background reasons behind the Euston stabling of a few years ago. As you point out there is additional capacity at Wembley now, which has changed things again.

Back in the vague depths of my memory I also remember a proposal in a TAA that a couple of ELL diagrams would actually stable at Orient Way overnight...
 

infobleep

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At the time of WCML electrification there were no dual-system units in the fleet, and the 501 units working the Euston-Watford and NLL at the time were only about 10 years old. So it's not surprising the third rail wasn't replaced at that time, especially as some of it would have had to be kept for use by the Bakerloo line. It's rather more surprising that third rail wasn't removed on the approach to Euston sometime after the 313s appeared on the routes, in the period when much of the NLL was converted to 25kV.

I suspect the ORR policy on third rail it will make it difficult to justify keeping it into Euston when all the trains using it have dual-system capability and mthe cost of providing a changeover would be small (unless there are tunnel clearance problems). North of Queens Park there is still the Underground to consider, and it may be that the Bakerloo is eventually extended back to Watford with exclusive use of the DC lines (except for the extended Metropolitan at the north end). The DC lines stations between Queens Park and Euston are both close to Tube alternatives so might be closed without causing too much inconvenience.
Except for those from Harrow and other stations on the Tring line trying to get into and out of Euston. Whenever there is a signalling issue the Tring services seem to get totally cancelled without any major communication to say they are all cancelled. Disruption notices usually just say they may be cancelled and it's only looking at the departure that you can see they are all cancelled.


That was 3 years ago though and things may have changed since then of course.

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SpacePhoenix

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Just been googling to find how many miles the Watford DC line is, no luck but in any case would it be in the tens of millions or the hundreds of millions range for the cost of conversion of the line to AC?

Looking at the tracks out of Euston, I'm wondering if the existing OLE gantries could be extended over the Watford DC lines, maybe just one, maybe two extra piles needed per gantry.
 

The Planner

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No plans to convert the DCs to Watford that I know of. The switch over to AC is required as you cannot platform the Euston HS2 layout with the current DC arrangement.
 

edwin_m

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Just been googling to find how many miles the Watford DC line is, no luck but in any case would it be in the tens of millions or the hundreds of millions range for the cost of conversion of the line to AC?

Looking at the tracks out of Euston, I'm wondering if the existing OLE gantries could be extended over the Watford DC lines, maybe just one, maybe two extra piles needed per gantry.

In some places the gantries already span across the DC tracks. But as I mentioned upthread, any conversion would have to consider what happens to the Bakerloo line, and indeed the future sharing with the Metropolitan between Watford High St and Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Except for those from Harrow and other stations on the Tring line trying to get into and out of Euston. Whenever there is a signalling issue the Tring services seem to get totally cancelled without any major communication to say they are all cancelled. Disruption notices usually just say they may be cancelled and it's only looking at the departure that you can see they are all cancelled.


That was 3 years ago though and things may have changed since then of course.

The Tring services may of course go via Crossrail instead, although that idea seems to have gone remarkably quiet and if they want to do it they will have to get a move on!

If the DC service didn't run to Euston it would probably be replaced by a more intensive Bakerloo service (extending the Queens Park terminators) so capacity would probably increase as the Tubes are longer than the LO trains. Euston (Square) would still be accessible by changing at Paddington or Baker St.
 

infobleep

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In some places the gantries already span across the DC tracks. But as I mentioned upthread, any conversion would have to consider what happens to the Bakerloo line, and indeed the future sharing with the Metropolitan between Watford High St and Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The Tring services may of course go via Crossrail instead, although that idea seems to have gone remarkably quiet and if they want to do it they will have to get a move on!

If the DC service didn't run to Euston it would probably be replaced by a more intensive Bakerloo service (extending the Queens Park terminators) so capacity would probably increase as the Tubes are longer than the LO trains. Euston (Square) would still be accessible by changing at Paddington or Baker St.
Would the service be much slower going that way? If in Harrow would a bus to. Harrow on the Hill and then a Jubilee line train be quicker than a Bakerloo line train?

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notlob.divad

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DC comes out for HS2 - already out of AC platforms at various times in the week though.

No plans to convert the DCs to Watford that I know of. The switch over to AC is required as you cannot platform the Euston HS2 layout with the current DC arrangement.

In these days of Crossrail and potentially Crossrail2, linking up local services across London to freeup platform capacity at Zone1 Terminal stations. Combined with the dropping of the HS1-Hs2 link through Camden. I would have thought the DC Watford Junction to Euston would be a prime example of a service that shouldn't be terminating in any Euston platforms. With the HS2 enabling works, we shouldn't just be looking at removing the DC rails from Euston but looking to run the trains onto the North London Line towards Camden Road to join up with other London overground services.

they are my thoughts, but I am not a Londoner and the trains there always seem a little bit extra strange to me.
 

The Planner

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The Tring services may of course go via Crossrail instead, although that idea seems to have gone remarkably quiet and if they want to do it they will have to get a move on!

It has gone quiet for a reason, no one can pay for it. You won't see it this side of HS2.
 

PeterC

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I would have thought the DC Watford Junction to Euston would be a prime example of a service that shouldn't be terminating in any Euston platforms.
There was a proposal a few years ago to run the Bakerloo out to Watford and run Overground from Queens Park via Primrose Hill to serve the inner stations. I never heard the full arguement for dropping the idea but the success of the NLL was causing capacity issues east of Camden Road Junction and I think there were issues over extending the Bakerloo as well.
 

mr_jrt

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The old classic is to come up with a way of removing the freight from the NLL and the solution becomes obvious: Utilise the 4 track alignment of the NLL to have the northern pair as AC from Stratford to Willesden via Hampstead Heath, and the southern pair as a DC extension of the ELL from Highbury and Islington to Watford Junction.
 
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